[QUOTE=The golden;29881999]Anyone knowledgeable in psychology and brain anatomy can tell you that it just sort of [I]does[/I] end when you die.[/QUOTE]
"but they're wrong because there's so much stuff they can't see and no one can see but it's there and it exists and it proves me right, but you can't see it"
[QUOTE=The golden;29881999]Anyone knowledgeable in psychology and brain anatomy can tell you that it just sort of [I]does[/I] end when you die.[/QUOTE]
It ends when you sleep, too, but you do eventually wake up. But you don't experience anything that happened while you were unconscious.
Your "soul" or consciousness is not a physical thing. You can't apply the logic you would apply to an object, or energy.
Yes, everyone knows that your brain ends when you die. But your consciousness isn't your brain. It's heavily connected to your brain (when you're alive, anyways) but your brain can exist while you're not conscious.
It's close to midnight and honestly I'm not very good at arguing or debating but here's a thought experiment. What if, a million years in the future, someone was to recreate your body, atom by atom, from the instant before your death. Think about that and you might realize that consciousness is more complicated than what you can measure biologically.
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29881982]Now you're just being ridiculous. What about the afterlife "logically can't exist"?[/QUOTE]
You're either assuming a whithered brain will still let you remain conscious, or you assume that there is a paranormal world that can not logically exist and has no proof of existing, or you assume there is some form of complicated essence (a soul) that has no proof of existing and does not logically exist and that can be transfered between worlds or bodies.
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29882021]It ends when you sleep, too, but you do eventually wake up. But you don't experience anything that happened while you were unconscious.[/QUOTE]
okay now it's for sure you've no clue what you're talking about
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29882021]Your "soul" or consciousness is not a physical thing. You can't apply the logic you would apply to an object, or energy.[/QUOTE]
Your brain controls your consciousness, not your soul.
There is no proof of any sort of souls existing, there is however proof of brain activity controlling your consciousness.
In psych 101 even you learn about how strange it would be to have a soul if you've got a decent teacher. We KNOW a brain controls the body, but if we have a soul, then the soul must control something, but if the soul is ethreal and can't be touched or measured, then how can it interact with reality? Not only that, but if your brain is damaged, you change. Does your soul change? Would you go to heaven with brain damage? If not, then the soul really isn't controlling anything, is it?
[editline]16th May 2011[/editline]
If anything, it kind of puts the soul as at best a tag along.
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29882021]but your brain can exist while you're not conscious.[/QUOTE]
That's called passing out.
Your consciousness can however not exist, if your brain does not give your body the proper chemicals and signals to let it function.
[editline]17th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29882021]Think about that and you might realize that consciousness is more complicated than what you can measure biologically.[/QUOTE]
If somebody were to recreate my entire body, then that body would live and think it was me.
It would however only be a clone of me, because the same brain (and consciousness) can not possibly exist at two places at the same time, and my original brain is surely being withered away in some grave by then and the consciousness in my real body has forever ended.
[editline]17th May 2011[/editline]
You have then not recreated me or transfered my consciousness, you have created a clone of me with an identical but separate consciousness.
My clone is a different person, with a mind and body identical to the original me.
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29882021]It ends when you sleep, too, but you do eventually wake up. But you don't experience anything that happened while you were unconscious.
Your "soul" or consciousness is not a physical thing. You can't apply the logic you would apply to an object, or energy.
Yes, everyone knows that your brain ends when you die. But your consciousness isn't your brain. It's heavily connected to your brain (when you're alive, anyways) but your brain can exist while you're not conscious.
It's close to midnight and honestly I'm not very good at arguing or debating but here's a thought experiment. What if, a million years in the future, someone was to recreate your body, atom by atom, from the instant before your death. Think about that and you might realize that consciousness is more complicated than what you can measure biologically.[/QUOTE]
Your consciousness is a physical thing.
BURN GOD'S HOUSE DOWN! He says what we're all thinking.
I'm just terrified at the idea of no being able to do, see, hear, feel, smell and the like anything for until time stops moving on. I consider myself atheist but still hope that there is something after death.
[QUOTE=EFG;29882167]I'm just terrified at the idea of no being able to do, see, hear, feel, smell and the like anything for until time continues move on. I consider myself atheist but still hope that there is something after death.[/QUOTE]
You have no reason to be afraid that you can't see, hear, feel, and smell if you can't think.
I imagine death to be like being in a big, dark, black room without any of your senses.
It's scary to me, and I really hope I'm wrong.
[QUOTE=Sled Dog;29882217]I imagine death to be like being in a big, dark, black room without any of your senses.
It's scary to me, and I really hope I'm wrong.[/QUOTE]
You are wrong. It's probably not like that because that describes an experience. Death is the absence of any experience.
I don't see any logical explanation for an afterlife. Though, I remember seeing this one doctor bring up this "quantum mind" hypothesis that had some crazy thing to do with Quantum super position and quantum entanglement. Personally I don't know enough about Quantum mechanics to really have a say in it. I still think it's all just a bunch of chemicals and when it's dead its dead and you no longer exist. That's what seems to fit and be logical with what we can understand today.
[QUOTE=Sled Dog;29882217]I imagine death to be like being in a big, dark, black room without any of your senses.
It's scary to me, and I really hope I'm wrong.[/QUOTE]
Except you don't exist, there is no "big, dark, black room" if you don't exist. I understand that concept of not existing is hard for some people to grasp considering we're existing beings, but there simply is nothing.
[QUOTE=EFG;29882167]I'm just terrified at the idea of no being able to do, see, hear, feel, smell and the like anything for until time stops moving on. I consider myself atheist but still hope that there is something after death.[/QUOTE]
You didn't do those things as a sperm, either. You wont even know. There's nothing to fear.
But Morgan Freeman is God, what more proof do you need? It's like saying everything about black holes are correct, even though no one has gone into one to live the tale.
[QUOTE=OvB;29882234]I don't see any logical explanation for an afterlife. Though, I remember seeing this one doctor bring up this "quantum mind" hypothesis that had some crazy thing to do with Quantum super position and quantum entanglement. Personally I don't know enough about Quantum mechanics to really have a say in it. I still think it's all just a bunch of chemicals and when it's dead its dead and you no longer exist. That's what seems to fit and be logical with what we can understand today.[/QUOTE]
If it sounds like spiritual mumbo jumbo but with the word quantum in it, it's still probably just spiritual mumbo jumbo.
I don't find the idea of non-existence to be that bad at all really, then again I'm a person who's stressed out of my mind and the idea of no worries, no stress, no pain, no boredom, and no tiredness feels insanely calming to me.
I imagine death to be like sleeping without dreams, or being passed out.
Those days you wake up in the morning without having dreamed of anything, and all that exists in your memories of your sleep is nothing.
You don't have any memories of sleeping, and yet it was peaceful and perfectly wonderful.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;29882312]If it sounds like spiritual mumbo jumbo but with the word quantum in it, it's still probably just spiritual mumbo jumbo.[/QUOTE]
Oh it's not just spiritual mumbo jumbo, it's [i]quantum[/i] spiritual mumbo jumbo. Just thought I'd throw it out there for you people to chew on. As for me I'm going to sleep thinking about this stuff, maybe i'll have a lucid dream or something.
What was that one thread that basically said you can never die simply due to the fact that another you exist in some other dimension and they take the fall?
I hate remembering my dreams.
I love going to sleep knowing my mind will rest, and I love waking up rested.
Dreams and nightmares alike ruins my sleep.
Nightmares wake me up horrified, dreams wake me up depressed; together they rob me of my calm.
[QUOTE=Fables;29882382]What was that one thread that basically said you can never die simply due to the fact that another you exist in some other dimension and they take the fall?[/QUOTE]
Multiverse theory. Spoiler alert, you take the fall for the other you
[QUOTE=Fables;29882382]What was that one thread that basically said you can never die simply due to the fact that another you exist in some other dimension and they take the fall?[/QUOTE]
I always think about that when I do something that could've brought me to my death. Nearly falling off of something extremely high, then wondering if in another universe, that actually did happen, but in this one, I will die for another universal self.
[QUOTE=Simski;29881916]No, I can use Occam's razor this way.
What you're saying is basically "In space, there is unicorns".
What I'm saying is "Until we have proof of unicorns in space, there likely are no unicorns in space".[/QUOTE]
That's still really not Occam's razor, because it's not selecting between two equal solutions of varying complexities and hypothetical components, but instead saying "we don't have evidence of this, ergo there's no reason to concern ourselves with it."
Unless you're using the "The simplest answer is the one that requires no thought." version. But really that's more The Everyman's Patented Bullshit Pruning Shears.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29881930]Why people desire an afterlife is beyond me.[/QUOTE]
Oh, shit, that's easy. We want to keep doing things. Not existing is the most horrible thing I can think of. And before you say "it's just like sleep", sleep's about number two.
I like doing things. I like making music, engineering, reading books about ancient history, having sex and typing stupid shit on the internet. There's enough stuff on this earth already that I want to consume and never could within my lifetime if that's all I ever did, and an equal amount of stuff I'd like to do, see, or make that I'm also never going to complete. Having a lifespan this short and an environment full of so much is just inherently shit.
'course we reasonable people just swallow it down, because death being a shitty fact doesn't make it stop being a fact, but don't tell me the idea of being able to do stuff forever doesn't win out over the ability to do some stuff for a little while.
We're not all Epicurean in our stance on death. I was not, but now I am, and I don't ever want to go back.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;29882137]Your consciousness is a physical thing.[/QUOTE]
And I just cannot-fucking-wait until we see if we can fully model or understand the mechanics of the medium.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;29882543]That's still really not Occam's razor, because it's not selecting between two equal solutions of varying complexities and hypothetical components, but instead saying "we don't have evidence of this, ergo there's no reason to concern ourselves with it."
Unless you're using the "The simplest answer is the one that requires no thought." version. But really that's more The Everyman's Patented Bullshit Pruning Shears.[/QUOTE]
Well "The Everyman's Patented Bullshit Pruning Shear" is certainly not was I was going for.
What I was going for is that "the simplest solution that suggests the least assumptions and raises no further questions is usually the correct one".
[editline]17th May 2011[/editline]
Although the scientific method of "Fact > Theory > Hypothesis" is indeed a favorite of mine I admit.
[editline]17th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;29882543]We're not all Epicurean in our stance on death. I was not, but now I am, and I don't ever want to go back.[/QUOTE]
A fellow Epicurean :buddy:
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;29882543]That's still really not Occam's razor, because it's not selecting between two equal solutions of varying complexities and hypothetical components, but instead saying "we don't have evidence of this, ergo there's no reason to concern ourselves with it."
Unless you're using the "The simplest answer is the one that requires no thought." version. But really that's more The Everyman's Patented Bullshit Pruning Shears.
Oh, shit, that's easy. We want to keep doing things. Not existing is the most horrible thing I can think of. And before you say "it's just like sleep", sleep's about number two.
I like doing things. I like making music, engineering, reading books about ancient history, having sex and typing stupid shit on the internet. There's enough stuff on this earth already that I want to consume and never could within my lifetime if that's all I ever did, and an equal amount of stuff I'd like to do, see, or make that I'm also never going to complete. Having a lifespan this short and an environment full of so much is just inherently shit.
'course we reasonable people just swallow it down, because death being a shitty fact doesn't make it stop being a fact, but don't tell me the idea of being able to do stuff forever doesn't win out over the ability to do some stuff for a little while.
We're not all Epicurean in our stance on death. I was not, but now I am, and I don't ever want to go back.
And I just cannot-fucking-wait until we see if we can fully model or understand the mechanics of the medium.[/QUOTE]
To me, I see it differently. I don't see things like that. I see this life as the one chance to get things that you want achieved. if you continue forever, nothing you achieve means anything because oyu have forever. Achievement is measured by the limitations you fought to get there. Having forever means i've achieved nothing in my eyes.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29882663]To me, I see it differently. I don't see things like that. I see this life as the one chance to get things that you want achieved. if you continue forever, nothing you achieve means anything because oyu have forever. Achievement is measured by the limitations you fought to get there. Having forever means i've achieved nothing in my eyes.[/QUOTE]
My friend wishes he was immortal, because he wants to continue experiencing things forever.
I however could not imagine a hell worse than immortality, I reckon I would get dreadfully bored and tired eventually.
I'm already tired, I can't imagine how miserable my life would be if it would have no end in sight.
I like this man even more now.
[QUOTE=Gaza Pen Pal;29870857]You can't disprove or prove the existence of god or an afterlife, not with the information we have, so scientifically agnosticism is correct not atheism.[/QUOTE]
Science postulates consciousness is the very brain state you're in. How can you have any sort of conscious continuity if you don't have a brain? There's no scientific evidence directly contradictory to the afterlife. However there is plenty of scientific reason to not even bother considering the possibility in the first place.
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