[QUOTE=Gekkosan;29886176]why the fuck do people even care what happens when they die? god damnit that's so stupid. why would WE HUMANS deserve to go to heaven out of ALL other animals when we die? that makes no sense at all, so.. what a privilege it is to be a human right? :v:[/QUOTE]
wtf r u talking about
[QUOTE=Zeddy;29887152]You're just bursting with anti-societal angst, aren't you?[/QUOTE]
Nah.. well yeah, actually I don't know. But it still doesn't make any sense, we just happen to sit on top of the survival of the fittest, that don't mean we go to hell or heaven when we die. It's just that we are so smart we realize we are going to die before we are even dying! And thus, we debate about it, complicating some very simple things. "Dying just won't cut it for us" :v:
You see religion don't know dick about death either. They just want people not to do stupid shit before they die, they want people to die in peace, to die comfortably. Or something like that. Science don't even give a shit about shit like that, they just research stuff and do science. Which is good. That's what humans do, among other things, good things and at a times controversial or even bad things. That's just us. And we argue about it because we are so god damn smart.
The death debate is nigh unwinnable, by any side.
For something as subjectively biased as this, what people should focus on is just putting their evidence out and letting people decide for themselves, rather than trying to slap down the opposition with it.
[QUOTE=Jayhawker30;29889233]The death debate is nigh unwinnable, by any side.
For something as subjectively biased as this, what people should focus on is just putting their evidence out and letting people decide for themselves, rather than trying to slap down the opposition with it.[/QUOTE]
If people want to believe that this life is meaningless because they've got another after, then go ahead, I won't stop them. But I'm sure as shit not letting the one life I'm sure I have go to waste.
Whether it's continuity or eternal oblivion after death, life's worth doesn't really change. That's more a matter of personal perspective than the concepts in general.
[QUOTE=Steven Hawking]There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; [B]that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark[/B][/QUOTE]
[img]http://tvpixie.com/public/images/webGreenMile1.jpg[/img]
[B]But I am afraid of the dark.[/B] :smith:
[QUOTE=Jayhawker30;29889603]Whether it's continuity or eternal oblivion after death, life's worth doesn't really change. That's more a matter of personal perspective than the concepts in general.[/QUOTE]
Sure, but if you KNOW you have one life, doesn't it make it more valuable than the potential that we have another?
fuck it, snip
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29889677]Sure, but if you KNOW you have one life, doesn't it make it more valuable than the potential that we have another?[/QUOTE]
The same standard can be applied to the contrary. If there's nothing at the end of life, then it wouldn't matter whether you lived a life of worth or not.
Again, it's just a matter of how you look at things. Whatever you believe, the value of life is what you make of it.
[QUOTE=Jayhawker30;29889883]The same standard can be applied to the contrary. If there's nothing at the end of life, then it wouldn't matter whether you lived a life of worth or not.
Again, it's just a matter of how you look at things. Whatever you believe, the value of life is what you make of it.[/QUOTE]
fair enough but I don't see how not having an afterlife invalidates life at all
It's easier to do whatever you want to do with your life when you don't believe in a religion, when you believe in a religion you accept that you may run into bad consequences if you don't do what religion tells you to but if you believe in nothing there's no problem with any action you take.
I guess that's what prison is for. Crazed atheists.
My existing on this planet from my point of view, does not suffice what life is on the scale of the universe. Therefore my existence will be moved somewhere in my opinion. Does that mean I believe in "afterlife", I guess not... Steven Hawking is a genius, let's not forget.
Afterlife does seem like a creation that makes us "look forward to death" in a way. However creepy that sounds, it is basically what people are doing.
[QUOTE=Chopstick;29890053]It's easier to do whatever you want to do with your life when you don't believe in a religion, when you believe in a religion you accept that you may run into bad consequences if you don't do what religion tells you to [b]but if you believe in nothing there's no problem with any action you take.[/b][/QUOTE]If the only reason you don't murder, steal, rape etc. is because of threat of divine punishment, are you truly a good person?
[QUOTE=MachiniOs;29870722]From a scientific perspective yes.[/QUOTE]
As opposed to a...?
[QUOTE=Gaza Pen Pal;29870857]You can't disprove or prove the existence of god or an afterlife, not with the information we have, so scientifically agnosticism is correct not atheism.[/QUOTE]
True, but the concept of a religion or god is not something that you just randomly believe in with, society told you about it. I also cannot prove that a 3 arm albino rhino bird with lasers does not exist, but that sure as hell doesn't mean it exists. So for the most part, we should just ignore the god concept all together. It obviously favors humans too much to be true, it's a biased, agenda fueled concept. Like when you say "what if God is bad?" they just stop arguing because they only want a god to exist if it is going to make them immortal.
This blurs the line between if a scientist is a Atheist or a Agnostic, as the god concept becomes silly or obviously fabricated by humans. I only say this since many people who are agnostic just say it because "they hope" a god exists.
[QUOTE=The Baconator;29890304]As opposed to a...?[/QUOTE]
Psychedelic Perspective. :pcgaming:
[QUOTE=Contag;29888191]How can you, or anyone know?[/QUOTE]
How can you or anyone know I'm not a fifty foot invisible spider cyborg with an internet connection wired into my massive mandibles?
In lieu of any reason to suggest a thing exists, you shouldn't concern yourself with its existence, or you'll be worrying about an infinite amount of stupid shit you can conceive like planet-sized foam coathangers or Bhorgmo, the all-elephant.
[QUOTE=Jayhawker30;29889233]The death debate is nigh unwinnable, by any side.[/QUOTE]
It's not a "debate." It's a group of people saying "don't pretend things that only exist in your mind exist in the real world" and a few people who stick their fingers in their ears.
[QUOTE=AK'z;29890316]Psychedelic Perspective. :pcgaming:[/QUOTE]
What kind of worship services does Psychedelism have?
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;29891141]
What kind of worship services does Psychedelism have?[/QUOTE]
Services?
Psychedelia does not serve people, their minds are all they need. For it can paint a beautiful amazing picture of colour, creating WORLDS out of pure mindfuck journeys.
[img]http://albumelossless.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/pink-floyd-a-saucerful-of-secrets-album-cover-1968.jpg[/img]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwisdIr61e4[/media]
Get my drift?
[editline]17th May 2011[/editline]
:pcgaming:
I take offense to this. The correct wording is "Fairy [I]Tale[/I]", not "Fairy [I]Story[/I]". And he's supposed to be a genius...
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;29891141]It's not a "debate." It's a group of people saying "don't pretend things that only exist in your mind exist in the real world" and a few people who stick their fingers in their ears.[/QUOTE]
The opposition isn't nearly as unfounded as you might think.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29888358]Just because "stream of consciousness" exists, doesn't prove a soul. The "teleport" argument really doesn't support your view point. It kind of negates it.[/QUOTE]
I was getting him to admit that there's more to consciousness than just chemical processes in one's brain. I wasn't suggesting a potential afterlife.
[QUOTE]No you didn't. You taking him saying something out of context and using it for your own benefit isn't getting him to agree with you that there is an invisible, unknowable and unmeasurable entity attached to ALL of us that we ALL can't see or experience in anyway, but it's there.
[/QUOTE]
I got him to directly contradict what the rest of you are saying, which is that all there is to a person's consciousness is their physical body and the chemical processes going on in their mind. In conceding that the future clone isn't "him", even though it's identical in everything that you claim makes up a consciousness, he's admitting that there's more to it than that. I'm not taking anything out of context.
Also, I'm going to point out that Human's awareness of their own consciousness is the center point of most major western philosophies, and has been for thousands of years. Trying to say that it suddenly doesn't exist because it can't be scientifically proven to you specifically is like gluing your eyes shut and claiming that colors don't exist, because you can't prove they exist to any of your other senses.
[QUOTE=Xenomoose;29891463]I take offense to this. The correct wording is "Fairy [I]Tale[/I]", not "Fairy [I]Story[/I]". And he's supposed to be a genius...[/QUOTE]
actually it's faerie tale
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29891798]I was getting him to admit that there's more to consciousness than just chemical processes in one's brain.[/QUOTE]
Sir I must once again ask if you have a single fact to back that up.
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29891798]I was getting him to admit that there's more to consciousness than just chemical processes in one's brain. I wasn't suggesting a potential afterlife.
I got him to directly contradict what the rest of you are saying, which is that all there is to a person's consciousness is their physical body and the chemical processes going on in their mind. In conceding that the future clone isn't "him", even though it's identical in everything that you claim makes up a consciousness, he's admitting that there's more to it than that. I'm not taking anything out of context.
Also, I'm going to point out that Human's awareness of their own consciousness is the center point of most major western philosophies, and has been for thousands of years. Trying to say that it suddenly doesn't exist because it can't be scientifically proven to you specifically is like gluing your eyes shut and claiming that colors don't exist, because you can't prove they exist to any of your other senses.[/QUOTE]
Dude, if you REALLY believe that the "teleportation/Clone" argument proves a soul, go take a fucking philosophy class. Yes, self awareness IS the centre of western philosophy. Your point? That isn't "soul searching", it isn't what YOU keep claiming it is. I'm not shutting my eyes to anything, but you're claiming that all of our philosophy points to a soul?
Why does your argument fall apart when you start using it to prove a soul? Here's why, a cloned version of him is HIM. It's nothing BUT HIM. There's an argument around whether or not it would be you so why are you so quick to claim you know you're right on this? This isn't even a clear cut debate, but you're making the effort to ignore what debates exist and stick your place firmly in the mud saying that those debates are solved in your favor.
[editline]17th May 2011[/editline]
And yes, please tell me what facts you have to back this up, what research you have, etc. I'm curious, because since your first post in this thread you've said you just "know" and that it's a "fact" but you can't prove it and if you don't believe it's there, well, you're wrong cause it's there.
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;29891829]Sir I must once again ask if you have a single fact to back that up.[/QUOTE]
Me: There are some things the scientific method don't work on, for instance [stuff]
Others: Prove [stuff] exists using the scientific method.
This topic in a nutshell.
People have been almost universally aware of consciousness for thousands of years, in fact part of the philosophical definition of humanity is being aware of consciousness, but like I said, it's an example of where the scientific method fails. I get one person to admit to its existence, and everyone else claims I didn't. Is the reason people are denying this because ignoring your awareness of your own consciousness makes everything much simpler?
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29892235]Me: There are some things the scientific method don't work on, for instance [stuff]
Others: Prove [stuff] exists using the scientific method.
This topic in a nutshell.
People have been almost universally aware of consciousness for thousands of years, in fact part of the philosophical definition of humanity is being aware of consciousness, but like I said, it's an example of where the scientific method fails. I get one person to admit to its existence, and everyone else claims I didn't. Is the reason people are denying this because ignoring your awareness of your own consciousness makes everything much simpler?[/QUOTE]
Consciousness is not indicitive of a fucking soul. Consicousness clearly exists without a soul, and if there is a soul, why isn't it measurable? Why do you ignore every argument I've thrown at you just to say "WHY WON'T YOU ACCEPT MY PROOOOOOF"
[editline]17th May 2011[/editline]
And if the scientific method can't find it, is it really there? How do you know the scientific method can't find it? It's like saying there's a pink elephant in my room, but it's invisible, has no heat signature, and is immaterial so it takes up no practical space. Go ahead look, but you won't find it, but it's there.
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29872908]Stephen Hawking is a smart guy, but does he not see the difference between humans and computers? One can not prove anyone else has a soul, but one can sense their own soul's existence. People can tell they're not just big, self-sustaining sequences of chemical reactions. Science has a problem with denying the existence of anything that can not be measured. Perhaps there is no life after death, and it's hard to believe because we can not comprehend non-existence, but humans do have souls, or at the very least I know I have a soul, so the comparison to computers just doesn't work.[/QUOTE]
It's funny, I re-read this. You're so full of shit.
people can sense they're not just big self sustaining sequences? Really? Then why do some people think, based on observations and other stuff, that we are in fact that? Why aren't we? You want me to believe we're not? prove it. You can't possibly be so naive to believe that your view is correct with NO proof, with nothing but feelings, you know there's a soul. Strange, we can't find it with anything at all.
[editline]17th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29892413][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_locke#The_self[/url][/QUOTE]
self awareness =/= having a soul for the last fucking time.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29892331]Consciousness is not indicitive of a fucking soul. Consicousness clearly exists without a soul, and if there is a soul, why isn't it measurable? Why do you ignore every argument I've thrown at you just to say "WHY WON'T YOU ACCEPT MY PROOOOOOF"
[editline]17th May 2011[/editline]
And if the scientific method can't find it, is it really there? How do you know the scientific method can't find it? It's like saying there's a pink elephant in my room, but it's invisible, has no heat signature, and is immaterial so it takes up no practical space. Go ahead look, but you won't find it, but it's there.[/QUOTE]
I think I realize what the problem is. I'm using the word "soul" as a synonym for consciousness, or what separates us from being walking chemical machines, collecting input and generating output. People think I'm using it as the religious definition of soul, but I'm not.
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;29890181]If the only reason you don't murder, steal, rape etc. is because of threat of divine punishment, are you truly a good person?[/QUOTE]
That's a moral issue, some think its a good idea to kill other people - no the real reason I don't go around murdering people is because of the law.
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