• David Cameron backs 'life means life' sentences for murderers
    78 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Wiggles;43394796]I really don't like this "lock them up and throw away the key" approach; it's terribly archaic and does nothing to bring the justice system into the 21st century. That's not to say I'm against people spending the rest of their lives in prison, because if that is what's required then so be it. But the idea that people can be sent away for a century and not be given any opportunity to be assessed for release is preposterous.[/QUOTE] Yeah IMO you could lock someone up for a day, and if they were truly remorseful and hurt by what they'd done, they might never offend again in their entire lives. Or you could lock someone up for 50 years and they get out and immediately commit a crime on day 1. It's the underlying belief system that's playing out that needs to be looked at. Not assuming that everyone works the same way.
[QUOTE=Wiggles;43395393]Completely taking away people's rights because they broke the law will do nothing but further alienate them from society upon release.[/QUOTE] well the bastard shouldve thought before breaking a window and stealing a radio. the future holds no room for people who act without thinking
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;43395290]by my system you would no longer be protected by law if someone tried to kill you. You obviously dont need the protection because you killed a drug lord that had a flamethrower while being taken by surprise in an enclosed area. [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] And im still unconvinced because thats all people can say[/QUOTE] Ok here's one example of why your idea is terrible, and then you can figure the rest out on your own. What if someone feels he needs to steal because of the position he's in. He feels that he has to steal to even be able to survive. What would punishing him by making it legal for everyone else to steal from him accomplish apart from making a poor mans life even worse? And (gee, a free extra example) who are going to keep track of who's legal to steal from and not? It's going to be incredibly complex and terribly difficult to implement, we're only looking at [I]one[/I] crime, out of a possible thousands of different crimes. [B]Edited: [/B][QUOTE=HybridTheroy;43395421] the future holds no room for people who act without thinking[/QUOTE] lol
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;43395391]if the whole world used my system there would be no need to have soldiers or wars [/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure a system where the government arbitrarily decides who does and who doesn't get legal protection would lead to more than a few wars.
[QUOTE=LarparNar;43395436]What if someone feels he needs to steal because of the position he's in. He feels that he has to steal to even be able to survive. What would punishing him by making it legal for everyone else to steal from him accomplish apart from making a poor mans life even worse?[/QUOTE] So that justifies it lol? People got by just fine without [I]things[/I] before [I]things[/I] were invented. It's likely that whatever he's stealing is what he [i]wants[/i] not what he needs.
[QUOTE=SCopE5000;43395471]So that justifies it lol? People got by just fine without [I]things[/I] before [I]things[/I] were invented. It's likely that whatever he's stealing is what he [i]wants[/i] not what he needs.[/QUOTE] What? I didn't say it justified stealing? And I'm talking about cases where people literally need to steal to survive, not when someone wants a new iPhone or a computer.
[QUOTE=DrDevil;43394631]I think it should be evaluated in each individual case if the prisoner can be rehabilitated into society or not, with each inmate having the possibility to get evaluated once a year or something.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Wiggles;43394796]I really don't like this "lock them up and throw away the key" approach; it's terribly archaic and does nothing to bring the justice system into the 21st century. That's not to say I'm against people spending the rest of their lives in prison, because if that is what's required then so be it. But the idea that people can be sent away for a century and not be given any opportunity to be assessed for release is preposterous.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=GreenDolphin;43395148]Locking people up for the rest of their lives isn't the proper way to go about solving problems.[/QUOTE] [quote=The fucking article]The 100-year terms would allow sentence reviews, satisfying the court. ... The ECHR ruled in July that whole-life sentences - allowed under English law - breached the European Convention on Human Rights because they did not include the possibility of a "right to review".[/quote] We are moving [I]away[/I] from a no-review approach, not adopting one.
Appeasing the kind of people who buy into all that "life means life" shit is going to make our country in a worse situation than it already is. What's the point in having 2 sentances that are exactly the same? The "life" sentance is addmitedly out-dated due to the fact it's grown around case-law but the whole life sentance is still there for the worst crimes. Things like this reminds me Britain is the special snow flake of Europe
[QUOTE=LarparNar;43395505]What? I didn't say it justified stealing? And I'm talking about cases where people literally need to steal to survive, not when someone wants a new iPhone or a computer.[/QUOTE] Chances are if you are in a place where you need to steal to survive while other people in that place already have the things they need to survive without stealing, you aren't making a very good effort to contribute enough to make your daily bread.
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;43394571]people usually have to breach human rights to do the crime that causes them to get life in prison. and imho breaching another persons right as a human being completely voids your own.[/QUOTE] What if it's a necessity? Would you let someone like say, Charles Manson out?
[QUOTE=CatFodder;43395454]I'm pretty sure a system where the government arbitrarily decides who does and who doesn't get legal protection would lead to more than a few wars.[/QUOTE] Its not about making it part of a goverment its about part of making it the norm. expect to be stolen from if you go around stealing things.
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;43395553]Chances are if you are in a place where you need to steal to survive while other people in that place already have the things they need to survive without stealing, you aren't making a very good effort to contribute enough to make your daily bread.[/QUOTE] Uh, I don't see how this is an argument, in some cities it's perfectly possible to walk from poor areas to rich areas, or find a store somewhere close. Or are you saying all poor and disadvantaged people are lazy?
[QUOTE=mchapra;43395589]What if it's a necessity? Would you let someone like say, Charles Manson out?[/QUOTE] yeah of course my post totally implies that...
This whole "hurr life must mean life" thing seems like some kind of biblical moral retribution/vengeance circle jerk kind of fantasy to me. If someone can be rehabilitated then surely that is better than taking their life away like they did to their victims... I mean sure it can be hard to determine if someone is no longer a threat or not but surely locking them up forever just out of principle without any negotiation or appeal or review being possible is a waste of life.
[QUOTE=LarparNar;43395605]Uh, I don't see how this is an argument, in some cities it's perfectly possible to walk from poor areas to rich areas, or find a store somewhere close. Or are you saying all poor and disadvantaged people are lazy?[/QUOTE] Im not saying poor people are lazy, but if your poor and your economy doesn't call for it, you aren't putting in enough effort. and, irrelevant, but, there would be a lot less of 'em if people didn't give out so much money for creativity, and so little (in comparison) for effort.
Never understood the "life means life" mentality. A life sentence with no possibility of parole is basically just a longer and more torturous version of the death penalty. It's like some sort of way for people to achieve the barbaric gratification of having everything the death penalty stands for, but without needing to openly endorse the death penalty specifically. It's genius!
Geez I'm glad HybridTheory isn't in charge.
[QUOTE=Novangel;43395692]Geez I'm glad HybridTheory isn't in charge.[/QUOTE] Hah, it's so blatantly obvious that you've done something to someone that you don't want done to you.
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;43395658]Im not saying poor people are lazy, but if your poor and your economy doesn't call for it, you aren't putting in enough effort.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, but what the hell does this even mean? [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=HybridTheroy;43395733]Hah, it's so blatantly obvious that you've done something to someone that you don't want done to you.[/QUOTE] Uh yeah, anyone who disagrees with your master plan have obviously done something bad to someone sometime, makes perfect sense and is not a fallacious argument in any way.
[QUOTE=LarparNar;43395751]I'm sorry, but what the hell does this even mean?[/QUOTE] It means poor people are poor because somewhere along their family line, a parent WAS lazy. sucks yeah but it's reality. And with a enough effort you can break that cycle of not being able to meet your needs. I know this because it is done all the time by people with enthusiasm. Every creature has to work to live. If you don't want to hunt or forage, then contribute to society in such a way that society has no other choice but to return the favor, allowing you to be free of the food chain like the rest of us. For example. A lot of poor people complain that there are no jobs. Bullshit! There is always something to be done, make a job, dont wait for a company to tell you what your choices are to make a living.
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;43395838]It means poor people are poor because somewhere along their family line, a parent WAS lazy. [/quote] It's incredibly close-minded to think this is true for all poor people ever. [QUOTE=HybridTheroy;43395838]sucks yeah but it's reality. And with a enough effort you can break that cycle of not being able to meet your needs. I know this because it is done all the time by people with enthusiasm.[/quote] Again it's very easy to sit here and say this, especially if you've never been in a situation like that yourself. People become poor and get stuck there for things out of their control all the time, illness, unexpected economic problems etc, and I don't know how you can sit there and say it's possible for everyone to break free while at the same time advocating policy that would make it more difficult for them if they make a mistake [I]once[/I]. [QUOTE=HybridTheroy;43395838]Every creature has to work to live. If you don't want to hunt or forage, then contribute to society in such a way that society has no other choice but to return the favor, allowing you to be free of the food chain like the rest of us.[/quote] Not all people have the ability to do this as well as everyone else. What we need to do is work on fixing the underlying causes that make them end up in that position, and make it hard to get out of it, rather than make it more difficult to get out of it, like you are suggesting. [QUOTE=HybridTheroy;43395838]For example. A lot of poor people complain that there are no jobs. Bullshit! There is always something to be done, make a job, dont wait for a company to tell you what your choices are to make a living.[/QUOTE] It's incredibly close-minded to say that everyone who are poor should just muster up a bit of enthusiasm and suddenly all your problems are gone. It's disregarding a whole plethora of causes and issues that we should fix first.
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;43395077]But you can make it black and white. if the person kills someone, then they are no longer protected by the law if someone tries to claim their life. if the person steals from someone, then they are no longer protected by the law if someone tries to claim their stuff. etc. see how easy that was to make it black and white[/QUOTE] So if I get in a car accident with someone from slipping on an icy road, and the person in the the car I hit later dies from their injuries, then their family should be allowed to hunt me down and enact vigilante justice for something I had little to no control over? See how easy it is to smudge up the line between black and white?
[QUOTE=Sluggbuck 99;43394596]i dont like that line of thinking, theyre still human beings regardless of the crimes they committed.[/QUOTE] But they still took those human rights from their victims. I'm sorry, but it isn't the prisons' jobs to make convicted murderers feel "respected" and "still worthy of human dignity". You do the crime, you do the time. Simple as that.
[QUOTE=slayer64;43396050]But they still took those human rights from their victims. I'm sorry, but it isn't the prisons' jobs to make convicted murderers feel "respected" and "still worthy of human dignity". You do the crime, you do the time. Simple as that.[/QUOTE] Yes, but it's the prison's job to rehabilitate the prisoners whenever possible. Degrading them in any way doesn't help with that.
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;43395658]Im not saying poor people are lazy, but if your poor and your economy doesn't call for it, you aren't putting in enough effort. and, irrelevant, but, there would be a lot less of 'em if people didn't give out so much money for creativity, and so little (in comparison) for effort.[/QUOTE] I disagree with this though. No creativity = nothing ever. In fact, creativity usually involves far more effort than may be apparent. AKA years of what other people see as procrastination might have in fact been very-essential musing. If anything people in general should be developing their creative abilities, as opposed to looking to expend a great deal of effort doing the same repetitive shit jobs all day. As that's all that will be left to do, when unskilled labour is fully replaced by robotics.
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;43394571]people usually have to breach human rights to do the crime that causes them to get life in prison. and imho breaching another persons right as a human being completely voids your own.[/QUOTE] Anyone who believes this [I]completely[/I] fails to understand the whole concept of human rights. You're supposed to have human rights [I]in virtue of being human.[/I]
[QUOTE=BLOODGA$M;43396005]So if I get in a car accident with someone from slipping on an icy road, and the person in the the car I hit later dies from their injuries, then their family should be allowed to hunt me down and enact vigilante justice for something I had little to no control over? See how easy it is to smudge up the line between black and white?[/QUOTE] If the incident was your fault, then of course, you should have been obeying the road laws/paying attention and you will have to pay for your stupidity. If it wasn't your fault, then you are the victim, the person who is at fault is dead, so that's that. not even smeared really [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=SCopE5000;43396334]I disagree with this though. No creativity = nothing ever. In fact, creativity usually involves far more effort than may be apparent. AKA years of what other people see as procrastination might have in fact been very-essential musing. If anything people in general should be developing their creative abilities, as opposed to looking to expend a great deal of effort doing the same repetitive shit jobs all day. As that's all that will be left to do, when unskilled labour is fully replaced by robotics.[/QUOTE] Im talking about people getting paid more than aerospace engineers because they have good pitch and hired someone to produce a melody for them to sing to. Sorry for speaking so generally
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;43396379]If the incident was your fault, then of course, you should have been obeying the road laws/paying attention and you will have to pay for your stupidity. [/QUOTE] So you support the death penalty/lynching as punishment for being involved in a car accident. I'm keeping this one in mind if I ever decide I want to buy somebody a title.
[QUOTE=BLOODGA$M;43396522]So you support the death penalty/lynching as punishment for getting in a car crash. I'm keeping this one in mind if I ever decide I want to buy somebody a title.[/QUOTE] Nowhere does my post say that. Any injuries taken from your own mistake, and the fact that you have killed someone will be punishment for you. Along with whatever charges you get for being an idiot as well. Unless the victims family decides to take revenge because you killed their family member with your stupidity, then you got yourself murderer coming at you, which you will not be protected for because you took someones life and it could have been avoided through your actions had you not been a dumbass behind the wheel. That is if the person thinks of the consequences (forfeiting the right they intend to take away, and in turn their protection from the law) and still decides to go through with it.
So you say "Nowhere does my post say that", but then you go on to make it clear that it was what you were trying to imply. Make up your mind, dude.
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