Iran protests spark Hong Kong protests agianst china. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Lankist;15840490]Point it out. You know, amidst the death vans, silencing of dissenters and massive censorship of any derogatory or inflammatory remarks about the great People's Republic.[/QUOTE] So are you honestly saying there has not been social change in china in over 20 years? :downs:

[QUOTE=NoDachi;15840511]So are you honestly saying there has not been social change in china in over 20 years? :downs:[/QUOTE] Not enough to forgive killing two thousand people or pretend the Chinese government isn't a corrupted police state. [editline]02:15PM[/editline] Given, you know, they still pretend it didn't happen. [editline]02:15PM[/editline] It's like the Catholic Church and the Earth revolving around the Sun, especially the taking centuries to admit it part. [editline]02:17PM[/editline] And before you reply, take into account that I, like most Americans, hate my government. And I can say that as much as I want, even burn a flag or two. Just because I can.

[quote=Lankist;324334] I don't recall the U.S. government ever doing that in its two centuries of existence.[/quote] Augusto Pinochet? Nicaraguan Death squads? Contra? The other many, many interventions, coups, and juntas that resulted in military or reactionary dictatorships in the third world? Tossing out French and Italian elections because communists had a good chance at winning? Allowing very harsh responses to the labor movement? Wide-scale repression in response to the first red scare? Supporting the last fascist government in Europe just because it was anti-communist (Franco's spain)? Yeah, [i]freedom and democracy[/i] We care about money before we care about our freedom and democracy.

And we admitted that shit [editline]04:04PM[/editline] And publicly lambasted our government for doing it [editline]04:04PM[/editline] And our government knocked it the fuck off for the most part [editline]04:07PM[/editline] You seem to be equating shit our government did sixty years ago to the modern government and its citizens when we've admitted to making past mistakes and made a serious effort to fix them. That can't be said about China, given you know how they pretend it didn't happen and have fucking death buses driving around. [editline]04:09PM[/editline] Furthermore you seem to be under the impression that I think the US has never done anything bad. I know the bad shit we've done. Then again, I can't get executed for knowing it and publicly criticizing it.

:foxnews:

[QUOTE=NoDachi;15842417]:foxnews:[/QUOTE] Yes because when left with no recourse claim I watch Fox News and am a conservative. That certainly validates your argument. I don't FYI.

At least the U.S. doesn't censor information about all the shit we did in the 50s-70s. In China, you can't find out about Tiananmen easily because they block fucking everything. Stop saying that China has made progress. They've gone from nothing to a little bit of freedom.

China is an evil police state that massacres their people and doesn't admit it.

[QUOTE=Lankist;15842303]And we admitted that shit[/quote] ...to who? the people of the US? nope. except for a few biased mentioning in your school history book, not really. and that's only for some of them the world? nope. we wouldn't have seen it as admitting a wrong anyway. [QUOTE=Lankist;15842303]And publicly lambasted our government for doing it[/quote] nope [QUOTE=Lankist;15842303]And our government knocked it the fuck off for the most part[/quote] for the most part? yes. because socialism, communism, and other revolutionary ideas are hardly a threat anymore. [QUOTE=Lankist;15842303]You seem to be equating shit our government did sixty years ago to the modern government and its citizens when we've admitted to making past mistakes and made a serious effort to fix them.[/quote] Metaphysics combined with an excuse. We considered ourselves to be in the right, superior, civilized, advanced, or whatever word you want to use for a bit of time now, mostly because of the cold war. Apparently we haven't really learned from 'past mistakes' or have a 'modern government' when that government lied itself into a war with a third world country in the interests of business. But please, show me where we have apologized for those 'mistakes' and have made a 'serious' effort to fix them. [QUOTE=Lankist;15842303]That can't be said about China, given you know how they pretend it didn't happen and have fucking death buses driving around.[/quote] I don't know this applies to me. I'm not defending China or how progressive it supposedly is. [QUOTE=Lankist;15842303]Furthermore you seem to be under the impression that I think the US has never done anything bad. I know the bad shit we've done. Then again, I can't get executed for knowing it and publicly criticizing it.[/QUOTE] Until you want to do something about it. Case in point, the red scares. The first one, which was actually more of a mass movement against a terrible war (world war one), not really a big threat of communist revolution (that claim, more or less, was supposed to rally people behind the government's actions) was met with quite a bit of violence on the state's part. The second was more a fear-mongering witch hunt that was, again, intended to rally people behind the government, not the socialists, who were a bit of a threat and could, in the perspective of the socialists, expose the government for 'what it is'. Which, according to them, was a government and state ruled by economic interests, which were accordingly threatened by the fast spread of communism during the late 40's and 50's, all the way up until the 70's. If this were to happen, the government would be severely limited in what it could do to fight communism with the support of people. I think, based on what I've said so far, we can come to conclusion that the government acts in economic interests, not for people. I'll say the same for China.

I stopped at the "nope" where you're pretending we are our government. I don't know how many times I have to explain this to you. You're telling me nobody lambasted the government for it's prior actions. The two of us are right now!

Well that's unfortunate I guess. I didn't mean it that way, not really sure why I said our. I'll change if you want. And you haven't explained anything to me. I guess you won't know until you try. You said 'we publicly'. And I assume with 'we' you were talking about more then us two, and publicly meaning not on an internet forum.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;15819774]You can't expect a country to change overnight. And we all know revolutions don't work.[/QUOTE] Only reason "revolutions" don't work is because not enough people are a part of them, I don't think the Chinese people will back down.

Wait a sec, I live in Hong Kong, OH SHI-

[QUOTE=Conscript;15851868]Well that's unfortunate I guess. I didn't mean it that way, not really sure why I said our. I'll change if you want. And you haven't explained anything to me. I guess you won't know until you try. You said 'we publicly'. And I assume with 'we' you were talking about more then us two, and publicly meaning not on an internet forum.[/QUOTE] I mean we as in US citizens. You cite all the wrongdoings with no attention to the right doings. The Counter Culture movement. The Civil Rights movement. Protest after protest, rally after rally, reform after reform and nobody's been run over by a tank doing it. We allow dissent and protest for any cause, no matter how extreme or small. That is my point. All governments commit atrocities and most all citizens of a nation harbor some inherent hatred of their government for it. What sets one government apart from another is whether or not citizens are persecuted for expressing that hatred of government. The US government can't do a damn thing about it and therefore doesn't take action when citizens take up a cause and rally at congress' doorstep. The same can't exactly be said about China. This is what I've been saying all along. The both of you have been citing all of the U.S. government's atrocities, with the exclusion of the Japanese Internment Camps curiously enough, but have ignored the fact that condemnation and reform as a result of these atrocities has taken place, and the instigators of such social revolution were left unharmed by the government at large.

[QUOTE=Lankist;15852884]I mean we as in US citizens.[/quote] Well, then, a lot of people don't even know about the coups in central america, or the french and italian elections, and a few other things. [QUOTE=Lankist;15852884]You cite all the wrongdoings with no attention to the right doings.[/quote] My intention isn't to slander the US, it is to debunk the notion that the US is a protector, beacon, whatever of freedom and democracy. That's why I cited all the examples above of the US making infractions on freedom, democracy, and the right to sovereignty. [QUOTE=Lankist;15852884]The Counter Culture movement. The Civil Rights movement. Protest after protest, rally after rally, reform after reform and nobody's been run over by a tank doing it. We allow dissent and protest for any cause, no matter how extreme or small. That is my point. All governments commit atrocities and most all citizens of a nation harbor some inherent hatred of their government for it. What sets one government apart from another is whether or not citizens are persecuted for expressing that hatred of government.[/quote] The civil rights movement wasn't exactly well met, but that's besides the point. The difference between these social movements and the democracy movement in china, is that one threatens the interests of those in power. And apparently we don't tolerate all dissent and protest, as I've explained. 'All government commit atrocities' is pure idealism. [QUOTE=Lankist;15852884]The US government can't do a damn thing about it and therefore doesn't take action when citizens take up a cause and rally at congress' doorstep. The same can't exactly be said about China.[/quote] You're not getting my point. Protests and dissent are only reacted to by the state when it becomes a threat. In the perception of china, democratic movements threaten the bureaucratic (and probably business owners themselves) Communist Party's power. They intend to maintain control over all aspects of China's economy to direct its future but a democracy would limit that. In the case of the US, if I were to push the Iraqi anti-war movement into something militant and revolutionary, you can bet I would stop being called a protester and start being called a domestic terrorist or an 'anti-american'. So, in conclusion, I think this 'right to protest' is something quite gilded. [QUOTE=Lankist;15852884]This is what I've been saying all along. The both of you have been citing all of the U.S. government's atrocities, with the exclusion of the Japanese Internment Camps curiously enough, but have ignored the fact that condemnation and reform as a result of these atrocities has taken place, and the instigators of such social revolution were left unharmed by the government at large.[/QUOTE] You're still stuck with the idea that my goal is to slander the US. Still, none of the things I mentioned in my original post were apologized, fixed, or compensated for. They are either ignored, or celebrated.

[QUOTE=Conscript;15852996]My intention isn't to slander the US, it is to debunk the notion that the US is a protector, beacon, whatever of freedom and democracy.[/QUOTE] Thanks for refuting something nobody said.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;15840311]Yes. My Dad lives there. I spend a lot of time over there.[/QUOTE] Pretty sweet. Every city has a unique personality. I always felt a special bond to Hong Kong.

[QUOTE=angelangel;15833666]The British should never have given up the jewel that was the Crown Colony of Hong Kong to the god damn Chinese.[/QUOTE] But they had an agreement. If they don't, China is going to kick their Ass

[QUOTE=billeh!;15857126]Pretty sweet. Every city has a unique personality. I always felt a special bond to Hong Kong.[/QUOTE] I love Hong Kong. I feel safe enough to get blind drunk, and stumble my way home alone at night, sometimes in the wrong direction. If I do that in Nottingham I'll probably end up in some ghetto and mugged, as my flat mate found out the hard way in freshers week at uni. Needed to have his front teeth re-aligned back into place.

[QUOTE=Lankist;15853206]Thanks for refuting something nobody said.[/QUOTE] What the hell are you talking about? You were complaining I was only explaining the negatives the US, so I explained why, and why it wasn't out of blind hate or just to slander.

[QUOTE=Conscript;15876118]What the hell are you talking about? You were complaining I was only explaining the negatives the US, so I explained why, and why it wasn't out of blind hate or just to slander.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Conscript;15852996]My intention isn't to slander the US, it is to debunk the [b]notion that the US is a protector, beacon, whatever of freedom and democracy.[/b][/QUOTE] Are you illiterate or are you just not thinking about the words you say

[QUOTE=Lankist;15876295]Are you illiterate or are you just not thinking about the words you say[/QUOTE] Where are you going with this? Are you just picking out things whine about because you have nothing else to say? You said: [quote=Lankist;434343]You cite all the wrongdoings with no attention to the right doings.[/quote] And I explained why, and clarified that I wasn't trying to slander anybody, here: [quote=Conscript;424242]My intention isn't to slander the US, it is to debunk the notion that the US is a protector, beacon, whatever of freedom and democracy. That's why I cited all the examples above of the US making infractions on freedom, democracy, and the right to sovereignty.[/quote] Which all started with this [quote=Lankist;434342]I don't recall the U.S. government ever doing that in its two centuries of existence.[/quote] So what the hell are you going on about?

[quote][QUOTE=Conscript;15852996]My intention isn't to slander the US, it is to debunk the notion that the US is a protector, beacon, whatever of freedom and democracy.[/QUOTE] Thanks for refuting something nobody said.[/quote] Please read the post. [editline]04:23PM[/editline] I am not going to spoon feed this idea to you. I don't have the time or the patience to repeat for you what I have just said in a different manner simply because you did not read it. It's fucking blatant.

[QUOTE=Lankist;15877236]Please read the post. [editline]04:23PM[/editline] I am not going to spoon feed this idea to you. I don't have the time or the patience to repeat for you what I have just said in a different manner simply because you did not read it. It's fucking blatant.[/QUOTE] What? Honestly this isn't very hard to follow. Is it that much of a problem? You said: [quote=Lankist;4343]I don't recall the U.S. government ever doing that in its two centuries of existence.[/quote] And I explained that it has, in fact, done things that are equal or worse then china running over protestors with tanks and are things you would think China would do, to help you recall a little bit. Me saying I was debunking the US's freedom and democracy appeal isn't a radically different way of saying 'well we actually kind of did do some things that you would only expect china to do'. So unless you were joking about 'I don't recall the US doing that', what I said still applies to you.

Nobody is claiming the U.S. is a beacon of democracy and freedom. I am NOT going to dignify your arguments when neither I nor anybody ever made such a claim. The U.S. is [i]a[/i] free country. China is not [i]a[/i] free country. That is the argument.

[QUOTE=Lankist;15878007]Nobody is claiming the U.S. is a beacon of democracy and freedom. I am NOT going to dignify your arguments when neither I nor anybody ever made such a claim. The U.S. is [i]a[/i] free country. China is not [i]a[/i] free country. That is the argument.[/QUOTE] You're splitting hairs over my choice of words, buddy. Protector, beacon, or free and democratic country are all one in the same. Stop wasting my time, please.

No. You're arguing the U.S. isn't the epitome of liberty. Hooray. You're arguing with yourself because nobody fucking said that. If you're arguing that the U.S. ISN'T a free country? That's cute.

[QUOTE=Lankist;15878710]No. You're arguing the U.S. isn't the epitome of liberty. Hooray. You're arguing with yourself because nobody fucking said that. If you're arguing that the U.S. ISN'T a free country? That's cute.[/QUOTE] It's obvious you don't feel like listening and I don't feel like arguing over some difference between being an an epitome of liberty and a free country (how you can be one but not the other is beyond me) so I'm going to leave before it turns into a flame war. Have fun.

i am glad i dont live in asian right now

The USA is a free country and they rock. China isn't and they don't rock because of that.