Turkish military shoots down fighter jet near Syria-Turkey border - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Kigen;49179338]Russian picture to counter the Turkey radar picture. Truck load of salt needed here. [url]https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/669230461181435906[/url][/QUOTE] crashsite 4 km away from border must be fake aswell.

[QUOTE=karimatrix;49179400]crashsite 4 km away from border must be fake aswell.[/QUOTE] I'm referring to the entire situation. Its mostly a he said, she said situation at this point.

[QUOTE=karimatrix;49179220]That's a weird way of protecting your borders - shooting an airplane after it left them. not ot mention that claim about "10 times radio warning" is laughable, i'll include this thoutful post: Sometimes you gotta accept that Russia is not always a bad guy and there is a possibility that Turkey was simply pissed off for losing money they were getting from imporing ISIS oil, ever since Russia started bombing the shit out of their fuel trucks[/QUOTE] I doubt it's over ISIS, more like they're mad about Russia bombing the ethnic turkmen rebels, that Turkey supports, in that area.

[QUOTE=The Haski;49179422]I doubt it's over ISIS, more like they're mad about Russia bombing the ethnic turkmen rebels, that Turkey supports, in that area.[/QUOTE] This, the US has dedicated an entire operation to cutting off IS oil sales with no objection from Turkey.

[QUOTE=Amfleet;49179463]This, the US has dedicated an entire operation to cutting off IS oil sales with no objection from Turkey.[/QUOTE] snip, I misread your post.

[QUOTE=HAWKS71;49179306]There's also this 5 km buffer zone parallel with the border which Turkey considers as itselfs. Or was it 10?[/QUOTE] I think it is 8km, but the buffer zone is not recognized by any other country.

[QUOTE=RainbowStalin;49179104]A country bordering an active warzone protects its own airspace and everyone goes crazy. Its unfortunate they got shot down but 1. they should have kept out of Turkey's airspace and 2. they should have responded to the warnings. As far as the Turkish were aware it could have been a Syrian plane.[/QUOTE] Turkey doesn't protect shit on the borders with Syrian rebels, plenty of which in that area are turkish Syrians. Once again Erdogan is part of the problem in Syria and is assisting its Islamist proxies.

So it seems that the letter Turkey sent to UN Security Council [url=https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/669188253279473664]has been leaked[/url]. And it appears that our Su violated Turkish airspace for whopping 17 seconds. And it might be somewhat "generous", because for that to happen the jet fighter had to fly with a speed of a WWII plane.

[QUOTE=gudman;49179973]So it seems that the letter Turkey sent to UN Security Council [url=https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/669188253279473664]has been leaked[/url]. And it appears that our Su violated Turkish airspace for whopping 17 seconds. And it might be somewhat "generous", because for that to happen the jet fighter had to fly with a speed of a WWII plane.[/QUOTE] Soo Turkey has deliveratly drawn a line of some sort of a buffer zone at Syrian Airspace where if any sighted airship is already considered a threat just for even [B]passing by[/B] Soo basically even before "violation" they were screaming sky high and preparing a rocket. how about we draw a buffer zone across entire north border of Syria and Turkey and call it "Make Kebab On Sight"?

17 seconds of violation is tiny. It is likely someone was too excited to pull the trigger. I am interested in hearing whether or not there were actually any warnings to the crew. If the amount of time they violated their airspace is correct, I doubt they had time to realize they were actually in it in the first place.

[QUOTE=karimatrix;49180012]Soo Turkey has deliveratly drawn a line of some sort of a buffer zone at Syrian Airspace where if any sighted airship is already considered a threat just for even [B]passing by[/B] Soo basically even before "violation" they were screaming sky high and preparing a rocket.[/QUOTE] I'm not the one to jump to conclusions, but from where I'm standing (far away, admittedly, I know little on the matter) it definitely seems like the Turkish F-16s were scrambled from their patrol route and going on an intercepting course with an already confirmed order to engage. Which, admittedly, is within their right, [b]if[/b] our jet did violate their airspace.

[QUOTE=gudman;49180073]I'm not the one to jump to conclusions, but from where I'm standing (far away, admittedly, I know little on the matter) it definitely seems like the Turkish F-16s were scrambled from their patrol route and going on an intercepting course with an already confirmed order to engage. Which, admittedly, is within their right, [b]if[/b] our jet did violate their airspace.[/QUOTE] That's alot of fast decisions within 17 second period of time. I am sure they were [B]somehow [/B] ready for that scenario before.

[QUOTE=karimatrix;49180092]That's alot of fast decisions within 17 second period of time. I am sure they were [B]somehow [/B] ready for that scenario before.[/QUOTE] Turkish anti-air defence forces tracked Su-24 for the entire duration of it's presence in their radars' range. They say they warned the pilot for quite some time while the Su-24 drew closer and closer, while already scrambling their interceptors from the patrol routine, so no "fast decisions" required.

[QUOTE=Deadman;49180021]17 seconds of violation is tiny. It is likely someone was too excited to pull the trigger. I am interested in hearing whether or not there were actually any warnings to the crew. If the amount of time they violated their airspace is correct, I doubt they had time to realize they were actually in it in the first place.[/QUOTE] They tracked the plane and spammed warnings at them for 5 minutes warning not to enter their airspace and did so anyway. There were also two planes but one got away according to that report.

I wonder when the other plane turned to avoid the airspace. It didn't outrun the tailing party, did it? Or did the two Su planes split up before the attack happened? Either way, airspace handling with supersonic jets was always a bit of a mess. Small countries and border territories can have planes wind up where they shouldn't be in a second's notice; They are supersonic, after all. Guess it boils down to the question of whenever or not the jets had a full intent to exploit or intrude Turkish airspace for a longer time frame than those five minutes plus 17 seconds, and if Turkish air defenses really are targeting the deeper areas of the war zone at this point. An investigation into this would be the best course of action. Maybe a more strictly defined airspace policy, too; There's been a lot of aircraft bumping into one another in that part of the Middle East lately, and not forming out a cohesive agreement between international forces in Syria could lead to more incidents down the line.

[QUOTE=gudman;49180135]Turkish anti-air defence forces tracked Su-24 for the entire duration of it's presence in their radars' range. They say they warned the pilot for quite some time while the Su-24 drew closer and closer, while already scrambling their interceptors from the patrol routine, so no "fast decisions" required.[/QUOTE] Soo far we got - A claim that plane was warned of possibilty of crossing border for 5 minutes[B] BEFORE REACHING THEM[/B] jet possibly crosses border passing through tiny portion for freakin [B]17 seconds[/B] that is enought to send a missle, [B]without[/B] attemp at establishing visual contact with unknown jet (measure to ensure you are noticed incase of friggen radio malfunction [B]HAVE YOU NOT EVER HEARD OF THAT GOD DAMN IT TURKEY[/B]) Missle reaches jet on [B]SYRIAN[/B] territory, implying possibility that f-16 violated [B]SYRIAN[/B] airspace just to make sure they hit a target. After incident Turkey immediatly contacts NATO, not Russia, for advice Gives mixed messages over pilot's fate Known to be a huge dickhead meddling with ISIS economically.

[QUOTE=karimatrix;49180167]Soo far we got - A claim that plane was warned of possibilty of crossing border for 5 minutes[B] BEFORE REACHING THEM[/B] jet possibly crosses border passing through tiny portion for freakin [B]17 seconds[/B] that is enought to send a missle, [B]without[/B] attemp at establishing visual contact with unknown jet (measure to ensure you are noticed incase of friggen radio malfunction [B]HAVE YOU NOT EVER HEARD OF THAT GOD DAMN IT TURKEY[/B]) Missle reaches jet on [B]SYRIAN[/B] territory, implying possibility that f-16 violated [B]SYRIAN[/B] airspace just to make sure they hit a target. After incident Turkey immediatly contacts NATO, not Russia, for advice Gives mixed messages over pilot's fate Known to be a huge dickhead meddling with ISIS economically.[/QUOTE] I don't understand what are you getting at here, honest. 1. Yes, that is, possibly, going by what they claim, I wasn't there to confirm. 2. Yes, that is, possibly, going by what they claim, I wasn't there to confirm. 3. Yes, that is indeed enough. You don't need to establish visual contact with an unknown object to decide that it poses a threat, remember it's [b]their[/b] airspace, their rules to decide when to apply force and when not to. Radio malfunction is irrelevant, a country is under no obligation to give the benefit of the doubt to any [b]confirmed[/b] (via radar patterns) military fighter jet crossing it's borders. 4. There is a possibility; just about as much as there is a possibility that it was actually alien life forms attacking Su-24 with phasers and Turkey covering it up by taking the blame. Missiles don't travel instantaneously and have a massive range, especially if the target is "highlighted" by active radar systems from the ground. It's much more likely that an F-16 fired it's missile from far away and it only reached Su-24 in Syrian airspace. Yeah, you can say that Turkish MISSILE violated Syrian airspace, sure. Other points are fair, though. I'm really interested in Turkish government's motivation in this kind of action, and I'm pretty sure it isn't just their prestige as a country, but from purely legal standpoint... it's probably pretty solid.

I'll just leave [URL="https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/status/669166303291318272"]these[/URL] [URL="http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/nov/24/pentagon-backs-turkeys-version-accuses-russian-fig/"]here.[/URL]

[QUOTE=karimatrix;49180167]Soo far we got - A claim that plane was warned of possibilty of crossing border for 5 minutes[B] BEFORE REACHING THEM[/B] jet possibly crosses border passing through tiny portion for freakin [B]17 seconds[/B] that is enought to send a missle, [B]without[/B] attemp at establishing visual contact with unknown jet (measure to ensure you are noticed incase of friggen radio malfunction [B]HAVE YOU NOT EVER HEARD OF THAT GOD DAMN IT TURKEY[/B]) Missle reaches jet on [B]SYRIAN[/B] territory, implying possibility that f-16 violated [B]SYRIAN[/B] airspace just to make sure they hit a target. After incident Turkey immediatly contacts NATO, not Russia, for advice Gives mixed messages over pilot's fate Known to be a huge dickhead meddling with ISIS economically.[/QUOTE] You're right, why would they go to NATO first instead of Russia ffs? I don't trust Turkey at all [editline]24th November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=AhoyMate;49180268]I'll just leave [URL="https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/status/669166303291318272"]these[/URL] [URL="http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/nov/24/pentagon-backs-turkeys-version-accuses-russian-fig/"]here.[/URL][/QUOTE] Still shouldn't have shot to kill so hastily, if at all. Just shows the Turkish government has no interest at all in the efforts we're all making to sort this out, just exploiting the terms of NATO while raking in $$$ from ISIS.

[QUOTE=Cypher_09;49180270]You're right, why would they go to NATO first instead of Russia ffs? I don't trust Turkey at all[/QUOTE] Why would they go to Russia when they just flagrantly invaded their airspace? To the point about 17 seconds being a minuscule time period - it's really not. 17 Seconds is a long time for a fast Jet. Added to the fact they were severely warned before even entering the airspace and they had it coming. With today's technology - and the fact pilots plan sortie routes to the second well before takeoff - there's really no excuse for such an incursion. The point is extended further when you consider this is one of many repeat offenses by Russia. Why is it that Russia flagrantly and systematically conducts aggressive maneuvers of this nature and people accept it as Russia's nature, yet when Turkey responds in kind they are immediately seen to be the ones at fault. Territory invasion is an aggressive tactic. Defending territory is defensive.

Turkey is a joke

[QUOTE=Sam Za Nemesis;49180431]Stop trying to justify shooting down an ally with such haste[/QUOTE] At this point it's quite hard to say just who's ally Erdogan actually is, considering their counter-productive activities in the region. I mean, Russia certainly isn't an ally to anyone, only if by virtue of occasionally fighting the same enemy while pursuing own agenda, but Turkey has been actively and directly foiling US's efforts in establishing an effective ground forces in the northern parts of Syria.

[QUOTE=Inspector N;49180374]Why would they go to Russia when they just flagrantly invaded their airspace? To the point about 17 seconds being a minuscule time period - it's really not. 17 Seconds is a long time for a fast Jet. Added to the fact they were severely warned before even entering the airspace and they had it coming. With today's technology - and the fact pilots plan sortie routes to the second well before takeoff - there's really no excuse for such an incursion. The point is extended further when you consider this is one of many repeat offenses by Russia. Why is it that Russia flagrantly and systematically conducts aggressive maneuvers of this nature and people accept it as Russia's nature, yet when Turkey responds in kind they are immediately seen to be the ones at fault. Territory invasion is an aggressive tactic. Defending territory is defensive.[/QUOTE] Normally, yea. But it's not defending when just across your border are Sunni rebels, probably turkish themselves, working as your proxies. That's why nobody gave a shit when Ukrainian artillery started hitting Russian territory, or when Israeli and turkish planes violate syrian airspace. You can try to be reductionist but this was not a state insisting on its sovereignty. This was a terrorist accomplice waiting to get revenge their strategy failed and is losing favor in the west. As soon as the headlines moved from Assad to ISIS, Erdogan was foiled and Russia is capitalizing on this to his detriment.

Turkey still proving it is the worst NATO country.

[QUOTE=Sam Za Nemesis;49180431]Stop trying to justify shooting down an ally with such haste[/QUOTE] Implying that Russia has been our ally til now :v:

I mean for all intents and purposes it was probably not in Turkey's interest to shoot down the plane on a political level. I think we can't rule out that split-second decisions on both side made by officers are to blame in this case. I don't think the actual Turkish leadership nor the Russian leadership wanted this to happen. I'm pretty sure that those kinds of planes have advanced enough systems that the pilot knew perfectly he was going to violate Turkish airspace. So, my theory is that the Russian pilots were ordered on their mission and maybe some parameter changed and they had to violate Turkish airspace to complete it. I'm sure that the Russian commander simply told the pilots to continue on their mission despite the risk, probably because they assumed the Turkish air-force wouldn't do anything. I'm guessing that the pilots probably asked again if they should proceed when they saw they were being hailed and were told to continue. On Turkey's side, I'm sure that the pilots also asked their own commander what to do when they didn't get an answer from the Russian planes and were probably told to engage if they were to violate the Turkish airspace. I'm guessing it was pretty obvious in the Turkish Pilots' mind that even if the Russian plane was to enter just for a few seconds they'd engage. That probably meant that the Russian plane still had time to re-emerge from Turkish territory while the missile was en-route. What most people probably don't realize is that all of this was most likely done independently from any political decision. On both side, the pilots were simply following orders and the Turkish military officers were perhaps too unforgiving while the Russian officers were perhaps too careless. Of course, I'm not an expert but it just seems like people want to make this political as in "Turkish government deliberately shoots down Russian plane" or "Russian government deliberately violates Turkish airspace" when they were most likely spur-of-the-moment tactical decisions made by military officers. [editline]24th November 2015[/editline] Fog-of-war is a thing that exists. War is fucking messy, guys.

Even if the Russian jet only violated their air space for 17 seconds, I somehow doubt that would happen without premeditation. Still, Turkey is a bag of dicks, and it's still pretty retarded to shoot down (definitely wasn't on accident either) a Russian jet just because it trespassed.

[QUOTE=Sam Za Nemesis;49180680]I'm not implying anything, the countries in the coalition are allies for the time being, there is no reason for Turkey to shoot a plane that stayed in less than 10 seconds in Turkish airspace outside the Turkish territory, this is a fact, Turkey made a huge mistake[/QUOTE] Russia is not a part of the coalition, though. They're running their own operation in the area. [editline]25th November 2015[/editline] Hell, they're not even supporting the same side in the war. They share one enemy, sure, but they also support opposing forces. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/nOKcSDY.png[/IMG] I'm not even sure if there is a word for that sort of situation, but Russia's allies/coalition and the coalition/alliance of which Turkey is taking part of are in conflict with each other, but the supporting countries are not. Guess it's a classic proxy war, but more open?

[QUOTE=Conscript;49180510]Normally, yea. But it's not defending when just across your border are Sunni rebels, probably turkish themselves, working as your proxies. That's why nobody gave a shit when Ukrainian artillery started hitting Russian territory, or when Israeli and turkish planes violate syrian airspace. You can try to be reductionist but this was not a state insisting on its sovereignty. This was a terrorist accomplice waiting to get revenge their strategy failed and is losing favor in the west. As soon as the headlines moved from Assad to ISIS, Erdogan was foiled and Russia is capitalizing on this to his detriment.[/QUOTE] I don't recall a reputable source for Ukrainian shells hitting Russian territory. For arguments sake let's take it as fact. Nobody would have complained when Ukrainian artillery hit Russian territory because Russia and Ukraine would have been in conflict and, in all but name, at war. Turkey is not at war with Russia so your parallel does not hold water. With Syria - it is hardly in a state to be defensive but had Israeli or Turkish jets invaded their airspace - while they maintained sovereignty - and been shot down I don't think my position would be any different. As for defending territory not being an act to maintain sovereignty - I'd say that by very definition that is what defending territory is all about. Does Turkeys supposed interaction with ISIS change this particular scenario? Interaction or no, Russia invaded their airspace and Turkey was well within rights to respond with force. Purported Turkish dealings with ISIS or alternate motivations are irrelevant to this scenario and only serve as a distraction - they do not detract from the wrongful airspace incursion.

[QUOTE=Riller;49180694] [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/nOKcSDY.png[/IMG] [/QUOTE] In a 100 years or so some teenager is going to find that and think "what the fuck happened there" edit: where is that from? The one on the syrian civil war wiki page is slightly different and includes the kurds as well. What an utter mess. The Arab spring was an absolute tragedy all things considered, hell I'll say it, worst tragedy of the 21st century so far. Wars all over africa and the middle east. Absolute anarchy and destabilization. Refugees pouring from every hole and drowning in the med. Terror attacks in previously peaceful places.