Colorado Theater Shooting Victims and Relatives Demand Guns Be Discussed In Upcoming Presidential De - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;37879030]Yes because it's completely impossible that circumstances will ever change at any point in time and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.[/QUOTE] yeah pretty much i mean sorry i don't have much faith in a CCW holder to stop a gunman in a tear gas filled dark theatre full of terrified frantic moviegoers what happened to the ignore list thing you were talking about bud? [editline]2nd October 2012[/editline] it would have only led to more panic, more confusion, more injuries and even more confusion for the police trying to root out a confirmed second gunman

it's really not a matter of CCWs being bad, it's just that there are situations like these where they're mostly useless based on the circumstances tragedies will always happen, there's nothing we can do to completely safeguard against them

[QUOTE=Kopimi;37877772]ya this is a silly pipe dream and anyone who legitimately believes in a violent revolution taking place in america is insane[/QUOTE] Well today yes, with our modern military any revolution would easily be put down. But back in the time of the creation of the country it was a very feasible option.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;37878626]someone else would have gotten shot and police would have probably killed the civilian that had a gun[/QUOTE] Maybe so, but I can see some benefits of shooting back. If the bad guy has any sense of survival, his fire will be drawn to the biggest threat in the room (which is the good guy). That or he'll be forced to take cover which means he has less time to shoot back. Also, if the bad guy is now in a shootout, he'll run out of ammo faster or his gun has a higher chance to malfunction. Lets at least give people the option to be armed. The bad guy at the Batman film had the option to attack, so innocent folks should have the option to defend. They don't have to use the gun, but it's there if they need it. Without the gun, you have less options on the table to pick from.

Holmes ignored multiple theaters, including one that was a fraction of the distance from his house, to go to the only one with a "gun free zone" policy in their company, how about we discuss that. And a CCW holder would have at least been able to draw fire away from the unarmed while they fled the theater.

[QUOTE=XxPsychoxX;37879467]Holmes ignored multiple theaters, including one that was a fraction of the distance from his house, to go to the only one with a "gun free zone" policy in their company, how about we discuss that. And a CCW holder would have at least been able to draw fire away from the unarmed while they fled the theater.[/QUOTE] can i get a source on the first sentence and no to the second sentence. a ccw holder would have been at least able to shoot some terrified bystanders in the confusion and get himself killed while slowing down the police as they attempted to defuse the situation now with 2 gunmen to handle instead of 1.

i always thought the second amendment thingy was about militia's bearing arms? but whatever. i think talking about greater gun safety training in regards to this situation is kinda pointless, holmes clearly didn't care about gun safety he was a loony toon

[QUOTE=Kopimi;37879487]can i get a source on the first sentence and no to the second sentence. a ccw holder would have been at least able to shoot some terrified bystanders in the confusion and get himself killed while slowing down the police as they attempted to defuse the situation now with 2 gunmen to handle instead of 1.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/09/10/did-colorado-shooter-single-out-cinemark-theater/#ixzz265llm12j[/url] And I forgot that all CCW holders are bumbling idiots and none are former LEOs or military personel who have been trained to handle those sort of situations.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;37879487]can i get a source on the first sentence and no to the second sentence. a ccw holder would have been at least able to shoot some terrified bystanders in the confusion and get himself killed while slowing down the police as they attempted to defuse the situation now with 2 gunmen to handle instead of 1.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, I didn't realize ccw holders like myself were a bunch of complete bumbling idiots who shoot wildly all over the place and spend no time at all practicing on drills and targeting or remembering to shoot only when you have a clear shot.

and i guess kopimi didn't realize that cww holders are ex military badasses who are always prepared for a firefight even when they're in the middle of a movie eating popcorn and a dude in armour comes in throwing tear gas grenades

[QUOTE=XxPsychoxX;37879553][url]http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/09/10/did-colorado-shooter-single-out-cinemark-theater/#ixzz265llm12j[/url] And I forgot that all CCW holders are bumbling idiots and none are former LEOs or military personel who have been trained to handle those sort of situations.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=UncleJimmema;37879561]I'm sorry, I didn't realize ccw holders like myself were a bunch of complete bumbling idiots who shoot wildly all over the place and spend no time at all practicing on drills and targeting or remembering to shoot only when you have a clear shot.[/QUOTE] im sorry, i didn't realize every single person with a CCW license is magically a highly trained professional capable of dealing with high stress situations in the middle of a crowded, dark and smoke filled theatre

if you think a bunch of jackasses all pulling their guns out like it's the wild west in the middle of a dark, crowded, teargas filled movie theater will ever be a good thing (especially when police have NO way of identifying who is the actual shooter and who is just some modern day cowboy) then you're kind of silly. we have police for a reason

US Police aren't bound to protect you, this was declared by the Supreme Court awhile ago, that's why you don't see "To Protect And Serve" on police cars anymore. When something happens, you are on your own. If you want to run with the herd hoping there's safety in numbers you go right ahead, but I'm gonna keep my gun so I can bite back when need be.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;37879561]I'm sorry, I didn't realize ccw holders like myself were a bunch of complete bumbling idiots who shoot wildly all over the place and spend no time at all practicing on drills and targeting or remembering to shoot only when you have a clear shot.[/QUOTE] i don't think anyone's an idiot, I just don't think that spending time at the range qualifies someone for this sort of situation. all the training in the world certainly didn't help the NYPD [url]http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/index.html[/url]

[QUOTE=RR_Raptor65;37879678]US Police aren't bound to protect you, this was declared by the Supreme Court awhile ago, that's why you don't see "To Protect And Serve" on police cars anymore. When something happens, you are on your own. If you want to run with the herd hoping there's safety in numbers you go right ahead, but I'm gonna keep my gun so I can bite back when need be.[/QUOTE] this has to be satire. nobody would seriously make such a self serving and self righteous "everyone else is sheeple" post and be completely serious, right?

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;37879581]if you think a bunch of jackasses all pulling their guns out like it's the wild west in the middle of a dark, crowded, teargas filled movie theater will ever be a good thing (especially when police have NO way of identifying who is the actual shooter and who is just some modern day cowboy) then you're kind of silly. we have police for a reason[/QUOTE] Average response time for a priority police call: 10 minutes or less. Average response time for priority police call in Detroit: 24 minutes Average response time for a trained individual with a firearm: 2.4 seconds. If people want to have a CCW they damn best know how to use it. Change the laws so training is mandated on consistent basis. You don't need to be an ex military hooplah cream corn to learn how to properly handle and use a firearm, nor do you need to be one to use solid judgment in a situation that is beyond your control.

[QUOTE=RR_Raptor65;37879678]US Police aren't bound to protect you, this was declared by the Supreme Court awhile ago, that's why you don't see "To Protect And Serve" on police cars anymore. When something happens, you are on your own. If you want to run with the herd hoping there's safety in numbers you go right ahead, but I'm gonna keep my gun so I can bite back when need be.[/QUOTE] and I honestly don't think you should get to. I honestly don't think your paranoia and fantasies of vigilante justice (or anybody else's fantasies of violent revolution) are a sound enough justification for having fucking insane gun laws in this country.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;37879705]Average response time for a priority police call: 10 minutes or less. Average response time for priority police call in Detroit: 24 minutes Average response time for a trained individual with a firearm: 2.4 seconds. If people want to have a CCW they damn best know how to use it. Change the laws so training is mandated on consistent basis. You don't need to be an ex military hooplah cream corn to learn how to properly handle and use a firearm, nor do you need to be one to use solid judgment in a situation that is beyond your control.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=SigmaLambda;37879692]i don't think anyone's an idiot, I just don't think that spending time at the range qualifies someone for this sort of situation. all the training in the world certainly didn't help the NYPD [url]http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/index.html[/url][/QUOTE] fyi nobody cares about response times of police, we're well aware of the fact that police won't magically show up to dive in front of the bullets as soon as we call 911. we also know we're not interested in having your CCW holders, trained or not, trying to play hero in the middle of a crowded theatre while they choke on tear gas

another way to look at this issue too, is the rights of the people around you, surely i have a right to not get drawn into a full on gun battle simply because you think you're qualified to solve situations with gunfights. although this isn't the best argument it's still an issue.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;37879717]fyi nobody cares about response times of police, we're well aware of the fact that police won't magically show up to dive in front of the bullets as soon as we call 911. we also know we're not interested in having your CCW holders, trained or not, trying to play hero in the middle of a crowded theatre while they choke on tear gas[/QUOTE] If the holder understood a damn thing he wouldn't have tried to play hero knowing that he didn't have a clear target or shot on said target.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;37879769]If the holder understood a damn thing he wouldn't have tried to play hero knowing that he didn't have a clear target or shot on said target.[/QUOTE] oh ok thanks that completely puts to rest my concerns that a CCW holder might do something stupid [editline]2nd October 2012[/editline] like seriously are you invalidating the risk of a CCW holder playing hero with "well hopefully he doesn't play hero"

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;37879705]Average response time for a priority police call: 10 minutes or less. Average response time for priority police call in Detroit: 24 minutes Average response time for a trained individual with a firearm: 2.4 seconds. If people want to have a CCW they damn best know how to use it. Change the laws so training is mandated on consistent basis. You don't need to be an ex military hooplah cream corn to learn how to properly handle and use a firearm, nor do you need to be one to use solid judgment in a situation that is beyond your control.[/QUOTE] it's not just about the ability to stop criminals, it's about judgment and accountability Shooting at targets as they pop up in a range is one thing, but having the knowledge, information, and judgment to [i]choose[/i] whether or not to use the weapon is a totally different thing. The 'bad guys' don't start flashing or something as soon as it becomes justified to shoot them. A state of affairs wherein the laws have been adapted to permit all sorts of vigilante justice via CCW seems to be a lot worse than the occasional spree shooting to me (as if that were even a valid dichotomy)

"I DEMAND YOU SPEAK OF GUNS" 'Guns shoot shit, kay? kay. moving on'

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;37879769]If the holder understood a damn thing he wouldn't have tried to play hero knowing that he didn't have a clear target or shot on said target.[/QUOTE] I want police to have guns because, more importantly than target practice, police are trained to determine [I]when[/I] the use of deadly force is appropriate. You have to understand, for every "this dude obviously needs to be stopped" incidents like spree shootings there are going to be many, many more situations where everyone having a fucking gun is just going to make the situation escalate, situations where deadly force wasn't justified but used anyway, situations where the nature of the threat is unclear, etc etc

[QUOTE=Ninja Duck;37877595]Good luck with that, but everyone will be "mentally ill or dangerous" unless proven otherwise, creating more restrictions for sane people who follow the laws and have a right to their firearms.[/QUOTE] what they mean is treat mental illness like a serious goddamn problem, don't defund mental health hospitals to meet budgets. [editline]1st October 2012[/editline] Gun culture has a serious persecution complex goddamn

[QUOTE=Kopimi;37879703]this has to be satire. nobody would seriously make such a self serving and self righteous "everyone else is sheeple" post and be completely serious, right?[/QUOTE] Wasn't implying people are sheep, but what else do you expect a group of people to do when they're being attacked and the only way to protect themselves is to run away and hope they aren't the ones to be shot? If you don't have a means to retaliate then running away is all you've got and sorry but those odds aren't very good unless there's lots of other people to be shot instead of you. I don't like that, at all, sounds more like Wildebeest fleeing Crocodiles rather than Buffalo beating back a pride of Lion.s And Police aren't going to be there to protect you unless they're you know, there all the time. [QUOTE=SigmaLambda;37879715]and I honestly don't think you should get to. I honestly don't think your paranoia and fantasies of vigilante justice (or anybody else's fantasies of violent revolution) are a sound enough justification for having fucking insane gun laws in this country.[/QUOTE] I have no fantasies of getting into a shootout with anyone, I hope I never have to. I just don't like being declawed. It'd be really fucking awesome if people got along and just had a good time but hey, welcome to Earth bud, been this way for a couple hundred million years it's not changing.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;37879692]all the training in the world certainly didn't help the NYPD[/QUOTE] Are you kidding me? Cops' training regarding firearms sucks. Badly. Talked to some LEOs (from both the US and my country), they say their mandatory training equals roughly to 5 range trips per year, just the bare minimum to qualify. If they want to practice more, they have to go to a range on their own, when off duty. Most CCW holders are WAY more experienced with a gun than most cops.

[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;37879864]Are you kidding me? Cops' training regarding firearms sucks. Badly. Talked to some LEOs (from both the US and my country), they say their mandatory training equals roughly to 5 range trips per year, just the bare minimum to qualify. If they want to practice more, they have to go to a range on their own, when off duty. Most CCW holders are WAY more experienced with a gun than most cops.[/QUOTE] cool. are they experienced in talking down potentially dangerous individuals? are they experienced in mediating disputes to diffuse dangerous situations? because right now the only skill you've argued for CCW holders is the ability to shoot a target but a world where people just start shooting at other people the moment it seems like the situation is getting dangerous seems way more dangerous than one with the occasional spree shooting. There are a lot of problems with american police forces but the depth of their training goes beyond just being able to shoot a target and, more importantly, they can be expected to be accountable for every action they take

I fully realize that dealing with an armed criminal is different than poking holes in a target, but being trained in that regard is sort of useless when one doesn't know how to handle his issued weapon. [quote]they can be expected to be accountable for every action they take[/quote] While a CCW holder wouldn't? I'm not following you here. Most of them know very well what repercussions they'll encounter if they choose to use their firearm to protect themselves, it's not like a CC license has "feel free to go cowboy on his ass" or "the law does not apply to you, have fun" written on it.

ccw holders would have made the situation worse because they would have joined in with the gunmen and shot as many defenseless people as possible,