Colorado Theater Shooting Victims and Relatives Demand Guns Be Discussed In Upcoming Presidential De - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Solo Wing;37888341]I believe Dale Gribble said it the best. "You don't have a gun, and a robber breaks into your home. What are you gonna shoot him with?"[/QUOTE] "Guns don't kill people. The government does."

[QUOTE=Ridge;37888379]"Guns don't kill people. The government does."[/QUOTE] No it doesn't?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;37888400]No it doesn't?[/QUOTE] Yeah they kinda do...

[QUOTE=RR_Raptor65;37888421]Yeah they kinda do...[/QUOTE] Source?

yknow, the fact that people with a hard-on for guns always seem to have a hard-on for the violent overthrowing of their government seems to me like another good argument in favour of stricter gun control. lol.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;37888504]yknow, the fact that people with a hard-on for guns always seem to have a hard-on for the violent overthrowing of their government seems to me like another good argument in favour of stricter gun control. lol.[/QUOTE] What's even more amusing is that people who will overthrow the government with the use of guns won't even be able to run a country.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;37888534]What's even more amusing is that people who will overthrow the government with the use of guns won't even be able to run a country.[/QUOTE] That's a pretty stupid statement. What if opposition political parties are illegal? What if there's no freedom of speech? What if you have a Communist regime? Or a fascist one? Or just any autocratic government who is not afraid of using force on civilians? What will you then do? Cry?

[QUOTE=Robbi;37888643]That's a pretty stupid statement. What if opposition political parties are illegal? What if there's no freedom of speech? What if you have a Communist regime? Or a fascist one? Or just any autocratic government who is not afraid of using force on civilians? What will you then do? Cry?[/QUOTE] violence isn't always the answer. fascist spain managed to transition themselves into a free-democracy without violent revolution (heck, it was violence that got the fascists into power in the first place)

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;37888473]Source?[/QUOTE] [Url=http://www.cato.org/raidmap/]No-Knock raids[/Url] that result in someone's death, there's an inexcusable number of these. Arguably the wars in the Middle East as well. How about the "War On Drugs", how many innocent lives has that claimed as a result of government policy? It's painfully easy for government policy to result in the death of innocent people.

[QUOTE=Robbi;37888643]That's a pretty stupid statement. What if opposition political parties are illegal? What if there's no freedom of speech? What if you have a Communist regime? Or a fascist one? Or just any autocratic government who is not afraid of using force on civilians? What will you then do? Cry?[/QUOTE] What I was saying is that the people who overthrow the oppressors, very very often become the very same oppressors themselves. If you have a bunch of people who are well dedicated, armed and you finally manage to grab control of the country, its very often been the case they cracked down on perceived threats to the new order of things. [QUOTE=RR_Raptor65;37888713]Arguably the wars in the Middle East as well. How about the "War On Drugs", how many innocent lives has that claimed as a result of government policy? It's painfully easy for government policy to result in the death of innocent people.[/QUOTE] Then vote out the government. Protest. Sign petitions. Have strikes and industrial action. These are all very effective.

[QUOTE=Robbi;37888643]That's a pretty stupid statement. What if opposition political parties are illegal? What if there's no freedom of speech? What if you have a Communist regime? Or a fascist one? Or just any autocratic government who is not afraid of using force on civilians? What will you then do? Cry?[/QUOTE] You reason with them with words and angry letters. You tell them they are not nice and you would like very much to be "free" again. Then when they tell you fuck off you sit in a park and beat on a drum. That'll show em!

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;37888684]violence isn't always the answer. fascist spain managed to transition themselves into a free-democracy without violent revolution (heck, it was violence that got the fascists into power in the first place)[/QUOTE] Violence isn't always the answer, correct, but it can often be the answer. Also Francoist Spain is one country, and pretty much the only reason they went democratic is because Franco died and there was an economic fuck up going on.

[QUOTE=Sgt.Sgt;37888722]You reason with them with words and angry letters. You tell them they are not nice and you would like very much to be "free" again. Then when they tell you fuck off you sit in a park and beat on a drum. That'll show em![/QUOTE] Then tell me which gun toters pulled down the Iron curtain.

[QUOTE=Robbi;37888753]Violence isn't always the answer, correct, but it can often be the answer. Also Francoist Spain is one country, and pretty much the only reason they went democratic is because Franco died and there was an economic fuck up going on.[/QUOTE] well that's the power of democracy and the weakness of autocratic governments, they often hinge too much on one man [editline]3rd October 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=RR_Raptor65;37888713][Url=http://www.cato.org/raidmap/]No-Knock raids[/Url] that result in someone's death, there's an inexcusable number of these. Arguably the wars in the Middle East as well. How about the "War On Drugs", how many innocent lives has that claimed as a result of government policy? It's painfully easy for government policy to result in the death of innocent people.[/QUOTE] gonna agree with you on this one. but i mean, it's not something that should we solved with overthrowing the government (although i'm sure this isn't what you're suggesting)

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;37888346]did you know almost all violent revolutions end up doing either one of the following: 1. not achieving their intended goals 2. screwing over a lot of people[/QUOTE] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3rhQc666Sg[/media]

[QUOTE=GunFox;37887481]Vigilante justice? Shooting someone in self defense or the defense of another is generally within the legal rights of citizens depending on what state they reside in. It isn't vigilante justice if it follows the laws in place. That is exactly the opposite of vigilante justice.[/QUOTE] but situations in which someone is obviously and unambiguously threatening someone else's life are going to be in the minority. Between clear justified and unjustified uses of deadly force there is a ton of grey area that, honestly, I think a proliferation of armed civilians is just going to make muddier; and with this state of affairs comes laws which really do begin to approach the endorsement of vigilante justice like castle doctrine

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;37888720]What I was saying is that the people who overthrow the oppressors, very very often become the very same oppressors themselves.[/QUOTE] Look at history. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;37888720]Then vote out the government. Protest. Sign petitions. Have strikes and industrial action. These are all very effective.[/QUOTE] Not everyone has the right to vote, protests are pretty futile when you are getting shot at, petitions are easily ignored and strikes? Yeah strike and your family gets fucked up.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;37888758]Then tell me which gun toters pulled down the Iron curtain.[/QUOTE] The success of the gun toting United States played a huge part in their demise.

[QUOTE=Robbi;37888840]Look at history. Not everyone has the right to vote, protests are pretty futile when you are getting shot at, petitions are easily ignored and strikes? Yeah strike and your family gets fucked up.[/QUOTE] he wasn't referring to your hypothetical fascist america he was replying to raptors post about the state of no-knock warrants and the war on drugs and shit

It really comes down to situation and context.

[QUOTE=Robbi;37888840]Look at history.[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_of_the_people[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror[/url] [QUOTE=Robbi;37888840]Not everyone has the right to vote[/QUOTE] So what did people do in the past to extend the franchise? [QUOTE=Robbi;37888840]protests are pretty futile when you are getting shot at[/QUOTE] Soldiers are often wary to shoot protesters. (Especially nonviolent ones) The more people protesting in the country, the more unlikely the government will be wanting to shoot them. [QUOTE=Robbi;37888840]petitions are easily ignored and strikes? Yeah strike and your family gets fucked up.[/QUOTE] General strikes?

There are non violent ways of doing thing such as the fall of the Berlin wall. But then there are moments like the Libyan Revolution.

[QUOTE=Sgt.Sgt;37888843]The success of the gun toting United States played a huge part in their demise.[/QUOTE] No it didn't. The USSR started to fall to bits in the 1970s when their economy went to pot. Inertia carried it on a little longer until it collapsed internally. [QUOTE=Swilly;37888951]But then there are moments like the Libyan Revolution.[/QUOTE] Foreign powers got involved quite a bit in that. Plus you still had problems with the militias running about killing people.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;37888768]gonna agree with you on this one. but i mean, it's not something that should we solved with overthrowing the government (although i'm sure this isn't what you're suggesting)[/QUOTE] Yeah, wasn't implying it was grounds for revolution. If there was an order to deploy police and military to go door to door looking for contraband in every house, then yeah I'd say that would be a pretty big first step. But as the saying goes, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Something the US government is especially good at.

[QUOTE=Sgt.Sgt;37888843]The success of the gun toting United States played a huge part in their demise.[/QUOTE] how did civilian gun ownership in the united states have any remote link to the fall of the soviet union

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;37888956]No it didn't. The USSR started to fall to bits in the 1970s when their economy went to pot. Inertia carried it on a little longer until it collapsed internally. Foreign powers got involved quite a bit in that. Plus you still had problems with the militias running about killing people.[/QUOTE] Are you suggesting that the Cold War seriously played no part in their economic failure? [editline]2nd October 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Kopimi;37889001]how did civilian gun ownership in the united states have any remote link to the fall of the soviet union[/QUOTE] It was suggested that the Soviet Union transformed without the aid of armaments. Sgt pointed out that the cold war with the US was a significant player.

[QUOTE=Sgt.Sgt;37888843]The success of the gun toting United States played a huge part in their demise.[/QUOTE] I don't think gun carrying civvies had much to do with the fall of the soviet union

[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;37889044]I don't think gun carrying civvies had much to do with the fall of the soviet union[/QUOTE] If anything, it was our space race.

[QUOTE=GunFox;37889013]Are you suggesting that the Cold War seriously played no part in their economic failure?[/QUOTE] The cold war didn't cause the collapse of the Soviet Union. Coincidentally around the same time the cold war was going on, Stalin and all the old soviet leaders were dying off, their economic policies were causing stagnation and getting nowhere and agricultural output was insufficient to cover the USSR (Which eventually had to import food). The Soviet Military did have a lot of resources allocated to it, but saying that their focus on military affairs caused the Soviet Union to collapse is foolish.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;37888926][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_of_the_people[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror[/url] [/QUOTE] Two examples vs all the armed conflicts which have brought improved life for its citizens. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;37888926] So what did people do in the past to extend the franchise? [/QUOTE] Are you really suggesting people have always had the ability to vote and that everyone has it? [QUOTE=Sobotnik;37888926] Soldiers are often wary to shoot protesters. (Especially nonviolent ones) The more people protesting in the country, the more unlikely the government will be wanting to shoot them. [/QUOTE] Look at recent news. People usually have no problem harming other people as long as there is a figure of authority. Regimes are usually really good figures of authority. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;37888926] General strikes?[/QUOTE] And that is how civil wars erupt.