[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;50698574]then ignore him like it's clear he's baiting you[/QUOTE]
trump supporters aren't all secretly faking it, dude
a lot of these people have been on this site for fucking years
I think it's pretty clear that plenty of them are being entirely sincere
they think trump is a fucking great guy and that he'll make everything great and that everyone who disagrees is just a cuck liberal
[QUOTE=ZombieWaffle;50698573]using underhanded tactics and malicious words towards those with unpopular opinions does not make them want to rethink their ideals, it simply forces them deeper into their hole. in order to convince somebody to at least consider what you're saying you need to be acceptive, receptive and most of all [U]respectful.[/U] all that has happened to Pvt. Martin is this thread was that he is now further entrenched in his belief for Trump than he was previously because a considerable amount of people rabidly attacked him rather than having a civil discussion.[/QUOTE]
I've been respectful to Martin, Cody, and Orgornot more times than I can count and offered them sources and had reasonable discussions with them.
Eventually you realize that no matter what you cite, they don't care. They picked their views and anyone who challenges that is a leftist liar. I've had very reasonable discussions with plenty of people I disagree with on any number of issues and I'm totally open to having civil discussions - but if you openly and intentionally ignore the reasonable arguments over and over and over and over, I'm not going to bother trying to show you where we disagree and I'll switch to condescension. If your opinion is countered by numerous sources and experts and you dismiss it as "this place is too leftist!" I'm not going to entertain your perspective anymore.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50698595]trump supporters aren't all secretly faking it, dude
a lot of these people have been on this site for fucking years
I think it's pretty clear that plenty of them are being entirely sincere[/QUOTE]
that's fair then, but to try to convince him every thread, while getting more and more rabid with each iteration is just so dumb to me, adding in more on how stupid you think he is for his views only pushes him deeper into them
a trend i noticed even outside of the forums is that people go absolutely ape shit over trump supporters when they ask "who do you support" and then to have it follow them back to the forums, it just makes them not want to switch at all
[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;50698494]
but really the trump supporters in this thread are being far more reasonable than the anti trump ones
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]-I like Trump
Why?
-I just do okay stop being bullies!![/QUOTE]
reasonable.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;50698498]Okay, people really need to stop bringing up this "i identify as a bagel lmaoooooo" shit. It's not taken seriously by the vast, vast supermajority of the LGBT community. It's relegated to a select few cliquey blogs and communities on the Internet.[/QUOTE]
I know it isn't common, that doesn't change that fact that if I were an employer, I would not want to hire someone like that. Those types of people are ten times more trouble than they are worth, and I would not support them being legally protected against employment discrimination.
[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;50698541]you should treat others how you wish to be treated. if they're being respectful then there's no need to go rabid
this is how you push people away, then whatever chance that they change their mind is gone.
and it's not pushing away trump supporters, it's pushing away other people as well.[/QUOTE]
nobody is going "rabid" and it's incredibly insulting to use that terminology, please don't be so mean, you are pushing other people away from your position
Well, Bernie gave up, I guess it's safe for me to give up on the people of this country as well.
I'm not particularly surprised, he probably thinks that he's able to compromise with the Democratic Establishment and that they'll keep their end of the bargain.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;50697714]Uh, you [I]do[/I] realize that people have been repeatedly giving you a chance to explain how the policies you agree with are actually going to work, right? You can claim they work all you want but by avoiding even addressing how they will work you're effectively closing your eyes and putting your fingers in your ears and simply ignoring anything people are saying while claiming it will work. Do you actually even know [I]how[/I] the policies you are agreeing with are going to be implemented?[/QUOTE]
Pvt. Martin really has no interest in learning. That's honestly the conclusion I've come to after seeing him post for, well, years. He'll absorb some opinions with basically no critical thinking, and then he'll parrot them for a few weeks. I don't know what it takes for him to get tired of them, but at some point he'll adopt some new ones, and the cycle continues. If he gets challenged he can just leave the thread.
Maybe he'll surprise me positively for once and actually respond with some carefully constructed arguments, but I seriously doubt it.
Edit: Okay, Martin, real talk for a second - you kinda talked about maybe going to college; if you actually intend to do so, please do not vote for Trump. He won't make it easier for you. I don't like Hillary, and she isn't going to be as great for you as Bernie, but she [I]is[/I] (probably) going to make it easier for you to repay any college loans. Even if you care about nothing else that should almost be enough to vote for her.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;50698665]I know it isn't common, that doesn't change that fact that if I were an employer, I would not want to hire someone like that. Those types of people are ten times more trouble than they are worth, and I would not support them being legally protected against employment discrimination.[/QUOTE]
You're arguing against nobody and nothing.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;50698694]Pvt. Martin really has no interest in learning. That's honestly the conclusion I've come to after seeing him post for, well, years. He'll absorb some opinions with basically no critical thinking, and then he'll parrot them for a few weeks. I don't know what it takes for him to get tired of them, but at some point he'll adopt some new ones, and the cycle continues. If he gets challenged he can just leave the thread.
Maybe he'll surprise me positively for once and actually respond with some carefully constructed arguments, but I seriously doubt it.[/QUOTE]
Speaking generally I don't think anyone who supported Bernie but hops ship to Trump is employing critical thinking. I genuinely believe for them it was about the movement, the wave of populism, the idea that they were taking charge and with Bernie out the next person to take up that mantle is Trump, someone who disagrees with 95% of the things Sanders stands for, someone who is more vehemently opposed to progressivism than Clinton ever was, is, or will be.
I get why Sanders supporters are upset. I get not voting for Clinton. But fucking vote Stein. Write Bernie in. Don't talk about how great Trump is going to be right after talking about how great Sanders is going to be. You look like a damned fool.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;50698650]reasonable.[/QUOTE]
well it's more like
[quote]-I like Trump
-Why you fucking idiot?
[/quote]
tbh some of them are just scared of muslims as much as people are scared of trump, I have a gay friend who's voting for him because he lives in an impoverished area and he watches stuff about sweden, germany and etc, and really just doesn't want any refugees to come, that four years of an awful president is better than having to live in fear of showing affection to your lover in public and risk being killed, and you know what, i find that a reasonable view, even whilst finding trump a candidate that i will never support
but if i called him an idiot he'd never have told me, like he never told any of our other friends.
[editline]12th July 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Raidyr;50698726]Speaking generally I don't think anyone who supported Bernie but hops ship to Trump is employing critical thinking. I genuinely believe for them it was about the movement, the wave of populism, the idea that they were taking charge and with Bernie out the next person to take up that mantle is Trump, someone who disagrees with 95% of the things Sanders stands for, someone who is more vehemently opposed to progressivism than Clinton ever was, is, or will be.
I get why Sanders supporters are upset. I get not voting for Clinton. But fucking vote Stein. Write Bernie in. Don't talk about how great Trump is going to be right after talking about how great Sanders is going to be. You look like a damned fool.[/QUOTE]
same tho
[QUOTE=hoodoo456;50698716]You're arguing against nobody and nothing.[/QUOTE]
There's no argument, only a question and a statement.
[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;50698734]well it's more like
tbh some of them are just scared of muslims as much as people are scared of trump, I have a gay friend who's voting for him because he lives in an impoverished area and he watches stuff about sweden, germany and etc, and really just doesn't want any refugees to come, that four years of an awful president is better than having to live in fear of showing affection to your lover in public and risk being killed, and you know what, i find that a reasonable view, even whilst finding trump a candidate that i will never support
but if i called him an idiot he'd never have told me, like he never told any of our other friends.[/QUOTE]
Your friend is a paranoid racist who fell for the right wing mantra of "Spooky foreigners are going to make your life bad". I won't argue that refugees are 100% upstanding good people, but nobody risks their life to the degree refugees do to get to america (or any country, really) just to beat up some gay people or rape a woman.
[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;50698629]that's fair then, but to try to convince him every thread, while getting more and more rabid with each iteration is just so dumb to me, adding in more on how stupid you think he is for his views only pushes him deeper into them
a trend i noticed even outside of the forums is that people go absolutely ape shit over trump supporters when they ask "who do you support" and then to have it follow them back to the forums, it just makes them not want to switch at all[/QUOTE]
if any trump supporter would like to actually engage in a factual discussion of policy and economics, I would love to have it
but if they only want trump, then what can I do? if that's the only language they'll listen to, then that's the language I have to speak
[QUOTE=hoodoo456;50698753]So your friend is a paranoid racist who fell for the right wing mantra of "Spooky foreigners are going to make your life bad".[/QUOTE]
yeah maybe he is
he's also poor, and something common among poor people is being paranoid and racist
it's not racist to know that the middle east is filled with homophobes, and that bringing in refugees will bring in a large portion of them into poor neighborhoods
and i don't agree with him, but it's easy to see his fear
[QUOTE=hoodoo456;50698753]So your friend is a paranoid racist who fell for the right wing mantra of "Spooky foreigners are going to make your life bad".[/QUOTE]
am I missing something? are tens of thousands of refugees from the middle east and africa flowing into the US?
I thought that was pretty much specific to europe
I don't see the problem here? I know I don't have a huge stake in American politics, but it seems like a lot of people want Bernie to just burn all of his bridges because he lost, which would accomplish nothing. Falling in line is pretty much his best course of action right now.
Sometimes you lose; doesn't mean all of the support and donations were a waste. It just means he'll need to keep pushing his agenda for now, and try again later.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50698782]am I missing something? are tens of thousands of refugees from the middle east and africa flowing into the US?
I thought that was pretty much specific to europe[/QUOTE]
it is specific to europe and i don't believe we'll take in any refugees
but he's still scared anyways, even if i tell him that, but i don't think he's an idiot, just ignorant
like a lot of poorer people
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50698782]am I missing something? are tens of thousands of refugees from the middle east and africa flowing into the US?
I thought that was pretty much specific to europe[/QUOTE]
I think it is. There are some coming to the US but I'm fairly sure the majority of refugees are entering Europe, not America
[editline]12th July 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;50698795]it is specific to europe and i don't believe we'll take in any refugees
but he's still scared anyways, even if i tell him that, but i don't think he's an idiot, just ignorant
like a lot of poorer people[/QUOTE]
Ignorance really isn't an excuse when you have the internet.
[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;50698795]it is specific to europe and i don't believe we'll take in any refugees
but he's still scared anyways, even if i tell him that, but i don't think he's an idiot, just ignorant[/QUOTE]
how exactly am I supposed to communicate with someone who is afraid of things that objectively aren't happening, who ignores all the proof that they're wrong, and yet continually proclaims how correct they are
[QUOTE=Pythagoras64;50698786]I don't see the problem here? I know I don't have a huge stake in American politics, but it seems like a lot of people want Bernie to just burn all of his bridges because he lost, which would accomplish nothing. Falling in line is pretty much his best course of action right now.[/QUOTE]
People are upset because the anti-corruption anti-establishment candidate is now endorsing the corrupt establishment candidate. But the alternative is a left-wing candidate endorsing a right-wing candidate, which he obviously would not want.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50698862]how exactly am I supposed to communicate with someone who is afraid of things that objectively aren't happening, who ignores all the proof that they're wrong, and yet continually proclaims how correct they are[/QUOTE]
they'll still be here after the elections, and i'd rather have them come around eventually than never at all, because of them thinking we'll never take them back because we think they're idiots
i'd rather take back as many as possible
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;50696535]I would've rather Bernie just refuse to issue an endorsement period.
But I guess he thinks he can still push the Democratic platform towards the direction he wants, and burning bridges won't facilitate that.[/QUOTE]
He says he got 80% of what he wanted onto the Democratic Platform. Unless there is a huge change in the 2020 platform, the Democrats have shifted permanently to the left.
It's interesting to see that Bernie is passionate about his goal of turning the Democrats into a Social Democratic party while most of his supporters are skeptical this could or should be done.
[QUOTE=adamsz;50698689]Well, Bernie gave up, I guess it's safe for me to give up on the people of this country as well.
I'm not particularly surprised, he probably thinks that he's able to compromise with the Democratic Establishment and that they'll keep their end of the bargain.[/QUOTE]
This is a pretty backwards mindset. As much as I despise Clinton, this was the only pragmatic move to make. Sanders's endgame has always been policy change. Maybe he gets little or none of what he wants now, but being a personal enemy of the president and a leper to his party would guarantee he gets nothing.
As for his "revolution," there's a reason one of his campaign slogans was "Not me. Us." - if the movement was going to be centered around his person, it was never going to be tenable in the first place.
[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;50698939]they'll still be here after the elections, and i'd rather have them come around eventually than never at all, because of them thinking we'll never take them back because we think they're idiots[/QUOTE]
I would never even think of refusing to have a reasonable and calm conversation with someone who sincerely wants one. Nor would I refuse to associate with someone because of their past beliefs.
It feels more and more like people aren't able to agree on what's real and what isn't. Like, people have always refused to change their minds even when proven wrong, but it feels like people used to stubbornly believe sort of the same thing, and now everyone stubbornly believes in a bunch of wildly contradictory things.
I want to find a way to combat that, and I'm frustrated that it seems like nothing works. And I don't think ignoring it is going to help in the long run.
[QUOTE=person11;50698943]He says he got 80% of what he wanted onto the Democratic Platform. Unless there is a huge change in the 2020 platform, the Democrats have shifted permanently to the left.
It's interesting to see that Bernie is passionate about his goal of turning the Democrats into a Social Democratic party while most of his supporters are skeptical this could or should be done.[/QUOTE]
I'd encourage everyone to compare the 2012 DNC platform with the 2016 draft. They're both freely available online and the difference is night and day. The 2016 one sounds like a slightly watered down Bernie. The 2012 one sounds like a liberal Republican.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50698986]I would never even think of refusing to have a reasonable and calm conversation with someone who sincerely wants one. Nor would I refuse to associate with someone because of their past beliefs.
It feels more and more like people aren't able to agree on what's real and what isn't. Like, people have always refused to change their minds even when proven wrong, but it feels like people used to stubbornly believe sort of the same thing, and now everyone stubbornly believes in a bunch of wildly contradictory things.
I want to find a way to combat that, and I'm frustrated that it seems like nothing works. And I don't think ignoring it is going to help in the long run.[/QUOTE]
I think we're starting to live 'post-truth' politics. We saw the same thing over here with the Brexit campaign. I think it's something to do with the Internet; everyone has access to so much information that they can find validation for literally any point of view and so feel no pressure to believe anything other than their own gut feeling. [url=https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jul/12/how-technology-disrupted-the-truth]This article basically.[/url]
[QUOTE=duckmaster;50696564]Well he wont get anything done if he burns all his bridges and shits on everyone because he didn't win.[/QUOTE]
He won't get anything done by pandering either. Clinton and the establishment are just going to push him off to the side, say "yeah sure" anytime he brings anything up against them (if that happens, and if he does it publicly and vocally to such an extent where people actually listen to him now I mean; since he's not running for president anymore, my guess is most people won't care), and that will be the end of the matter.
Unless he still tries to create a movement that can infiltrate the system and take it on from within, then this accomplished nothing. It's actually counterproductive in the sense that it's helping to lend legitimacy to Clinton and the establishment. That's the last thing we need. Time will tell what's going to happen of course, but we cannot afford to just give up, and I hope he realizes this. Otherwise, people will start to slip out of their enthusiasm and vitality back into that retarded apathetic "nothing ever changes, whatever" mentality, and what was from the beginning already a daunting task will become even more daunting.
Where he goes from here and where his supporters go is absolutely critical. Obama aroused the same kind of passion and energy in his supporters, and I still to this day don't understand why he didn't channel it into the formation of a proper movement with leadership, organization, and objective-oriented mindedness when he was first elected eight years ago. I wondered for a while if that was what he was aiming for with OFA (which has gone through several different incarnations now), but fuck it-- nothing's been done with it.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;50698435]Lot less disappointing than the collective stupidity that Trump as Republican nominee represents.[/QUOTE]
You'll take any random opportunity to jab trump won't you? What does trump have anything to do with Bernie not being what people wanted? This thread is about Hillary being a shitter and Bernie trading his credibility for partisan bullshit. This is why people don't listen to your rants about trump.
Doesn't make sense either, you hated Trump from the beginning how the fuck did he disappoint you?
[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;50698541]you should treat others how you wish to be treated. if they're being respectful then there's no need to go rabid
this is how you push people away, then whatever chance that they change their mind is gone.
and it's not pushing away trump supporters, it's pushing away other people as well.[/QUOTE]
This. The people who vehemently hate Trump like a broken record and "no bad tactics" are the reason there's so many of them now, it's not entirely because of Hillary, we [i]had[/i] Bernie for awhile. When you start looking like a bigger dumbfuck asshole than your opposition you only help that opposition. When someone views debate and sees shit similar to the "ARE YOU KIDDING ME, FUCKING WHITE MALE" video happening, who do you think they're gonna find more rational?
[editline]12th July 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Govna;50699291]He won't get anything done by pandering either. Clinton and the establishment are just going to push him off to the side, say "yeah sure" anytime he brings anything up against them (if that happens, and if he does it publicly and vocally to such an extent where people actually listen to him now I mean; since he's not running for president anymore, my guess is most people won't care), and that will be the end of the matter.
Unless he still tries to create a movement that can infiltrate the system and take it on from within, then this accomplished nothing. It's actually counterproductive in the sense that it's helping to lend legitimacy to Clinton and the establishment. That's the last thing we need. Time will tell what's going to happen of course, but we cannot afford to just give up, and I hope he realizes this. Otherwise, people will start to slip out of their enthusiasm and vitality back into apathy, and what was from the beginning already a daunting task will become even more daunting.[/QUOTE]
Everyone at sandersforpresident is losing their shit because he was a 3rd party previously or something and his support would help him and 3rd party in general in 4 years even if he lost and what does he do?
A complete 180. He thinks he's stopping big bad trump or something but he's really just hurting his rep and his supporters were NeverHillary anyways so this was an idiotic move. He put it all on Jill now.
[QUOTE=galenmarek;50698409]If you're some random white guy do you seriously you'd be put into a camp in WW2 because your great-great-great grandfather came from Germany?[/QUOTE]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans[/url]
Also:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Italian_Americans[/url]
Not saying that internment is right, it's really not, and internment in WWII [I]was[/I] racist. However, it was put into action by FDR because him any many others around him were afraid of security risks.
FDR put up loose directions as to what to do. The people who were put in charge went overboard.
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