[QUOTE=Conscript;44924266]In other words, neo-liberal imperialism isn't as blunt as military action. I love how wound up you people are over Crimea.
I'm sorry, a smile and nod? It just sounds like you really don't know much. Read [url=http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/02/crimea-crisis-russia-ukraine-cold-war?CMP=fb_gu]this[/url], [url=http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/24/the-brown-revolution-in-ukraine/]this[/url], or [url=http://www.salon.com/2014/05/07/samantha_powers_brazen_hypocrisy_media_swallows_propaganda_but_heres_the_truth_about_ukraine/]this[/url].[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I just skimmed the first article and only found this.
Viewing the February revolution in Kiev as a coup engineered by Ukrainian radical nationalists from the west of the country – assisted by Europe and the United States – [B]the Kremlin believed [/B]
That is not much in the way of actual proof. Without any actual backed up facts the West did not do anything more than moral support for the people overthrowing the guy who was in Putin's pocket for the longest time.
On the Salon article it seems to just be screaming on how much the US foreign policy sucks. Not any actual proof that the West was involved in a meaningful way. I am not going to go through several long articles to try and disprove your claim. So either highlight the parts that have actual facts behind them or stop spouting RT headlines.
[QUOTE=Sableye;44922893]They went to a military occupied international airport and told the Ukrainian army to leave, what were they thinking would happen. Still shit got real when Ukraine brought in air support. Hope this sends the message to the thugs to leave the gun at home
[editline]27th May 2014[/editline]
Guess Russia steps in next to protect the "innocent" civilians[/QUOTE]
You don't even live over there, nor do you have any inkling of what is going on over there outside of the sensationalized news that makes it out. Don't even.
This is their conflict.
[quote]Yeah, I just skimmed the first article and only found this.
Viewing the February revolution in Kiev as a coup engineered by Ukrainian radical nationalists from the west of the country – assisted by Europe and the United States – the Kremlin believed
That is not much in the way of actual proof. Without any actual backed up facts the West did not do anything more than moral support for the people overthrowing the guy who was in Putin's pocket for the longest time.
On the Salon article it seems to just be screaming on how much the US foreign policy sucks. Not any actual proof that the West was involved in a meaningful way. I am not going to go through several long articles to try and disprove your claim. So either highlight the parts that have actual facts behind them or stop spouting RT headlines.[/quote]
'Moral support'. Nope, not $5 billion and Victoria Nuland's aid her leaked outlining of the coup government, not visits from the CIA with people like John Brennan, no Western NGOs, no forcing a divided country to pick between the West and Russia, no arrival of prominent American (and Polish) politicians like McCain and Kerry to urge Maidan to fight, no complacency with the utter tearing up of the February 21st agreement with Yanukovich.
I'm too lazy, Western involvement, the unconstitutional nature of the deposing, the work of Western political NGOs in the East, the agreement, etc. are all general knowledge at this point. The only thing left to prove is the influence of Ukrainian nationalism. The only thing I'll give you is one of the later things in my bookmarks, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaPCrkEOof4]those[/url].
Also, Yanukovich was not in Putin's pocket. He, like past Ukrainian presidents, balanced the West and Russia.
Hey, Conscript, check this out
[img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19945172/1401214213587.jpg[/img]
Pavel Gubarev, governor of the Donetsk Peoples Republic
[QUOTE=Conscript;44924565]
Also, Yanukovich was not in Putin's pocket. He, like past Ukrainian presidents, balanced the West and Russia.[/QUOTE]
but then why did he take a 15ish billion bribe from putin to pull away from the EU?
maybe in his first term yanukovich wasn't in putins pocket but after he returned to power he started spending billions on an extravagant car collection and a yachet for his tiny lake and a massive mansion while his country's economy collapsed and the government got more and more corrupt
[QUOTE=Conscript;44924565]'Moral support'. Nope, not $5 billion and Victoria Nuland's aid her leaked outlining of the coup government, not visits from the CIA with people like John Brennan, no Western NGOs, no forcing a divided country to pick between the West and Russia, no arrival of prominent American (and Polish) politicians like McCain and Kerry to urge Maidan to fight, no complacency with the utter tearing up of the February 21st agreement with Yanukovich.
I'm too lazy, Western involvement, the unconstitutional nature of the deposing, the work of Western political NGOs in the East, the agreement, etc. are all general knowledge at this point. The only thing left to prove is the influence of Ukrainian nationalism. The only thing I'll give you is one of the later things in my bookmarks, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaPCrkEOof4]those[/url].
Also, Yanukovich was not in Putin's pocket. He, like past Ukrainian presidents, balanced the West and Russia.[/QUOTE]
It's such general knowledge that no one has any idea what you're talking about.
And something if it were so widely known you'd think would mean you could quickly find an article or two detailing it.
Pavel Gubarev is arrested, lol, has been for months. He has no relevance in the East (and never really did). His comments on the ambush on Ukrainian soldiers a week or so ago shows his detachment, claiming the separatists didn't do it while local commanders did.
On the other hand, bring up any BBC article about Ukrainian operations in the east, and you'll find them quoting Andriy Parubiy, the svoboda co-founder named National Security Chief and is who organized the [url=http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/ukraine/ng.htm]"Maidan Self-Defense" and the national guard and sent them to fight in East Ukraine[/url]. [url=http://peoplesworld.org/ukrainian-ultra-rightists-given-major-cabinet-posts-in-government/]Svoboda holds at least 5 other important cabinet positions, too.[/url]
Meanwhile, his radical nazi cousins no doubt had a hand in the Odessa massacre, and have engaged in gunfights in Kharkov not long after Yanukovich's deposing.
[QUOTE=Maegord;44924637]It's such general knowledge that no one has any idea what you're talking about.
And something if it were so widely known you'd think would mean you could quickly find an article or two detailing it.[/QUOTE]
If you have not at least heard of Victoria Nuland, the complacency in the breached agreement, and the nature of decision Ukraine had to make with the EU (that is, either them or the Customs Union), that is so honestly pathetic I'm not even going to bother.
[QUOTE=Conscript;44924649]Pavel Gubarev is arrested, lol, has been for months. He has no relevance in the East (and never really did). His comments on the ambush on Ukrainian soldiers a week or so ago shows his detachment, claiming the separatists didn't do it while local commanders did.
On the other hand, bring up any BBC article about Ukrainian operations in the east, and you'll find them quoting Andriy Parubiy, the svoboda co-founder named National Security Chief and is who organized the [url=http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/ukraine/ng.htm]"Maidan Self-Defense" and the national guard and sent them to fight in East Ukraine[/url]. [url=http://peoplesworld.org/ukrainian-ultra-rightists-given-major-cabinet-posts-in-government/]Svoboda holds at least 5 other important cabinet positions, too.[/url]
Meanwhile, his radical nazi cousins no doubt had a hand in the Odessa massacre, and have engaged in gunfights in Kharkov not long after Yanukovich's deposing.[/QUOTE]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0gWOc6iCSkp[/media]
Nope, not arrested
Also, Svoboda are not a radical party at all. They're populists
Ha, I'll drink to that. But the point stands.
Fitting music, The Sacred War. The west's attempt to play on Ukrainian nationalism in the Western half of the country to steal the East has backfired and has pushed many East Slavs into fighting such a war. That's why many didn't vote on May 25th, why bother? Precendents set and anger provoked by February 21/22 opened up new, radical options to them. And why trust the elections of pro-EU oligarchs who are willing to savage Kiev for what they want?
Please, enjoy the bed you made, this was long in the making, and you hit the straw the broke the camel's back. I know you claim you don't support Maidan, but viewing the people of the East as 'Russian terrorists' and the whole thing as fomented by Russia, is exactly what I'm talking about. You're part of the problem.
Also, Svoboda is a direct descendant of OUN-B, and [url=http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P7-TA-2012-0507+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN]the EU condemned them two years ago[/url]. They are fascist, they are radical.
[QUOTE=Conscript;44924772]Please, enjoy the bed you made, this was long in the making, and you hit the straw the broke the camel's back. I know you claim you don't support Maidan, but viewing the people of the East as 'Russian terrorists' and the whole thing as fomented by Russia, is exactly what I'm talking about. You're part of the problem.[/QUOTE]
I'm okay with being part of the problem then, but I'm still not okay with Russian neo-nazis here
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;44924658][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0gWOc6iCSkp[/media]
Nope, not arrested
Also, Svoboda are not a radical party at all. They're populists[/QUOTE]
LONG LIVE THE CONFEDERAC-
wait what
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;44925181]LONG LIVE THE CONFEDERAC-
wait what[/QUOTE]
The East will rise again
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;44925226]The East will rise again[/QUOTE]
To arms in Donetsk!
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKMTu1GDi_w[/media]
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;44925082]I'm okay with being part of the problem then, but I'm still not okay with Russian neo-nazis here[/QUOTE]
Don't make nationalist moves against Russians (or anything pro-russian, for that matter) in a divided country with a bitter history?
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;44925226]The East will rise again[/QUOTE]
Every time there's news like my first thought is if you are ok.
Apparently I'm your fussy mum
[QUOTE=Conscript;44925280]Don't make nationalist moves against Russians (or anything pro-russian, for that matter) in a divided country with a bitter history?[/QUOTE]
So, give up half of the country? What kind of country would we be then? Do you realize that most people in Donetsk don't want any of this shit?
[QUOTE=Conscript;44924096]The west is the greater imperialist, and it shows, they had much to do with the Ukraine's situation happening in the first place.
Russia was quiet during Maidan, and when the West carried out its coup with the aid of Ukrainian nationalism, Putin seized the most (pro-)Russian territory that was even until fairly recently part of Russia, and sent a message: Russia won't stand by idly by and let the EU/NATO and their West Ukrainian allies bully their way into owning East Ukraine, which has many ties to Russia.
I think it's just funny since his move was so blunt it sent Westerners into a stupor. This can't happen in the 21st century, but enacting regime change with billions of dollars and fascists on the ground can.[/QUOTE]
I guess we shouldn't be terribly surprised which side you're on, with a username like "Conscript".
Why do you have such a boner for the Putin regime, anyways? Have you been completely deaf to the civil rights violations his administration has been pulling left and right?
[editline]27th May 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Aman;44925194]Relevant, Donetsk airport:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftTs-rNL_18[/media][/QUOTE]
Why so much chaff? Do the "separatists" have MANPAD-capabilities or something along those lines?
Any Russian care to explain the Georg ribbons a lot of patriotic Russians like to wear? I remember it being a kind of military award way back during the times of Czarist Russia, but why do Russians today wear it? (Hint: It's the brown-orange striped little ribbon Gubarev has pinned to his chest in the video)
[QUOTE=ewitwins;44925581]Why so much chaff? Do the "separatists" have MANPAD-capabilities or something along those lines?[/QUOTE]
They have "Igla" SAMs. That's how they shot down a couple of Mi-24s, apparently
[editline]27th May 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;44925612]Any Russian care to explain the Georg ribbons a lot of patriotic Russians like to wear? I remember it being a kind of military award way back during the times of Czarist Russia, but why do Russians today wear it? (Hint: It's the brown-orange striped little ribbon Gubarev has pinned to his chest in the video)[/QUOTE]
[t]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Za_pobedu_nad_germanie.jpg[/t]
The "For Defeating Germany" medal
[QUOTE=ewitwins;44925581]
Why so much chaff? Do the "separatists" have MANPAD-capabilities or something along those lines?[/QUOTE]
From what I remember I've seen separatists in a video with some captured manpads. I believe that was in Crimea though.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;44925624][t]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Za_pobedu_nad_germanie.jpg[/t]
The "For Defeating Germany" medal[/QUOTE]
But wasn't it a military decoration of the Imperial Russian Army and by extension Imperial Russia of the Czar? Something the Revolution overthrew, in essence? Why was, and still is, the ribbon being used to symbolize Soviet victory today? It's iffy...
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;44925849]But wasn't it a military decoration of the Imperial Russian Army and by extension Imperial Russia of the Czar? Something the Revolution overthrew, in essence? Why was, and still is, the ribbon being used to symbolize Soviet victory today? It's iffy...[/QUOTE]
Stalin liked all sorts of imperial stuff and didn't really mind using it. Also, you could see these ribbons a lot last year on Victory day in Ukraine. This time, not so much
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;44925488]So, give up half of the country? What kind of country would we be then? Do you realize that most people in Donetsk don't want any of this shit?[/QUOTE]
Yes, and if you're concerned about the 'prestige' of your country, fuck it. Eastern self-determination means more.
And most people in Donetsk don't want it, no, but they don't want you either. They'll sooner fight you and the Ukrainian chauvinism you represent.
That is, unless, you cease all operations in the east and federalize. Be happy nobody's asking you to ban Svoboda et al.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;44925875]Stalin liked all sorts of imperial stuff and didn't really mind using it. Also, you could see these ribbons a lot last year on Victory day in Ukraine. This time, not so much[/QUOTE]
I bet you can guess who's gonna go around calling people fascist by their orange ribbons still hanging after victory day is over. I always thought the weirdest ones were those who keep a sticker on their car.
[QUOTE=Conscript;44926018]Yes, and if you're concerned about the 'prestige' of your country, fuck it. Eastern self-determination means more.
And most people in Donetsk don't want it, no, but they don't want you either. They'll sooner fight you and the Ukrainian chauvinism you represent.
That is, unless, you cease all operations in the east and federalize. Be happy nobody's asking you to ban Svoboda et al.[/QUOTE]
I thought you were against banning parties
snip
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;44926089]I thought you were against banning parties[/QUOTE]
Nope. I'm not a liberal.
[QUOTE=Conscript;44926296]Nope. I'm not a liberal.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure I recall you bitching about the attempted banning of the communist party.
[QUOTE=Streecer;44926350]I'm pretty sure I recall you bitching about the attempted banning of the communist party.[/QUOTE]
Did it ever cross your mind that my opponents claim to be liberals?
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