Mute Air Force Veteran with advanced Alzheimer's murdered after ringing doorbell: Stand Your Ground
153 replies, posted
[QUOTE=certified;43066690]Can you blame the shooter though? Most people don't go randomly ringing doorbells at 4 in the morning, and someone acting weird and uncooperative like someone with advanced Alzheimers is bound to be mistaken for a criminal or a drunk about to do something criminal. Note that the shooter was either overtired or hastily woken up and had a hard time properly identifying the victim in a confused and disoriented wakeup. That, and the wife was already calling 911, so the thought that the ringer might attack or rob them was clearly in their minds already.[/QUOTE]
When someone rings my door at 4am I don't immediately think I'm about to be murdered, yknow since they [I]rang the doorbell[/I]. You Americans sure are paranoid.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;43070352]If I wanted to say "guns are bad" I would come out and say it (guns are bad) instead of wasting a lot of time and effort to couch it inside another, more complex argument.
i just believe that, as a society, we should maybe once and a while put away our guns and choose to avoid dangerous situations instead of doing sick max payne dives towards the nearest shadowy figures and suspicious characters
[editline]4th December 2013[/editline]
well if his (culturally endorsed) idea of "protecting his love" was to go charging into the darkness of the night with a loaded gun then that sort of proves my point?
[editline]4th December 2013[/editline]
"it's a murderer and I should blow them away" would only be one of the many different possibilities running through my mind, alongside "it's a person in need of help," "it's a family member coming unannounced" and, "finally, after all these years of waiting, I am finally about to receive a singing telegram."
The fact that, apparently, loads of people jump to the first one and are so convinced that that is the correct call that they are willing to shoot first and ask questions later is indicative of the paranoia that is fostered in people by america's gun culture[/QUOTE]
Charging into darkness? No you're proving my point and quickly passing judgement based on limited information.
For all you know this guy couldve stepped out onto his porch, told the person to freeze, and then the person (who was a confused old man) moved forward not responding, which made the homeowner shoot.
Time for a little story, as something along these lines happened to me a year ago.
I was home with my sister and our mother was out of town at 1 am when I hear a beating on our door. I decide to not answer and stay in my room, upon which I hear a scratching at my window. At this point I call 911 and my sister is in my room terrified.
So here are my options at that point:
- Let whoever it is break in and be in a closed in room with me and my sister
- Go outside with a weapon and try to run the person off in an open area without any danger to my family
I chose the option to go outside, the light in my room was on obviously, so going outside all I could see was a shadowy figure. I had a kitchen knife.
I yelled at the guy to get away from my window, and he stopped and started stumbling towards me. The only thing that kept me from stabbing forward was the fact that the shadow was smaller than me.
It turns out it was my friend's autistic brother who apparently had sleep walked a few blocks down into my neighborhood and came to, lost and confused. He recognized my house because he had been there multiple times and decided to come seeking help. Only a huge amount of self control and the fact he was half a foot shorter than me were the only things that kept me from being in this guy's same situation.
So, try to have a bit more of an open mind, and quit trying to make assumptions. Nothing is ever simple. Adrenaline and the state of our country can give a man a huge sense of paranoia, and you should be sympathetic towards that.
[QUOTE=Arc Nova;43070442]When someone rings my door at 4am I don't immediately think I'm about to be murdered, yknow since they [I]rang the doorbell[/I]. You Americans sure are paranoid.[/QUOTE]
the only reasonable approach I'd make if I felt I was in danger and needed a gun would be to ready the weapon and [i]hide indoors where I can keep an eye on whether or not somebody tries to break in[/i]. Cheap tactic but camping around a corner in the dark sounds way safer on my end than opening the door at 4am then approaching a potential threat on my lawn
[QUOTE=1chains1;43070496]The only thing that kept me from stabbing forward was the fact that the shadow was smaller than me.
It turns out it was my friend's autistic brother who apparently had sleep walked a few blocks down into my neighborhood and came to, lost and confused. He recognized my house because he had been there multiple times and decided to come seeking help. [b]Only a huge amount of self control and the fact he was half a foot shorter than me were the only things that kept me from being in this guy's same situation. [/b][/QUOTE]
wow this sure is a convincing argument for... not leaving your house??? now I am getting confused
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;43070352]If I wanted to say "guns are bad" I would come out and say it (guns are bad) instead of wasting a lot of time and effort to couch it inside another, more complex argument.
i just believe that, as a society, we should maybe once and a while put away our guns and choose to avoid dangerous situations instead of doing sick max payne dives towards the nearest shadowy figures and suspicious characters[/QUOTE]
That's entirely reasonable, I hate hearing stories like this that happen because people don't understand how self defense and the moral imperatives that come with gun ownership work. The resident in this case broke every tenet of safe and justifiable firearm use, and every time this crap happens all we get is a lot of people needlessly hurt and frequently killed, the guy is badly in the wrong even if the letter of the law hasn't explicitly been broken.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;43070531]wow this sure is a convincing argument for... not leaving your house??? now I am getting confused[/QUOTE]
So if it had been a robber, and he had broken into my room, I would've been in a closed in area with an unknown man with my sister in there as well.
Maybe you should get off your high horse and view it from a situation in which you aren't comfortably relaxed in your computer chair and maybe you wouldn't be so confused. Just a bit of advice.
Also you are right, Amercians are paranoid, we have a different society and culture, which should let you understand that this guy would act differently from your 24/7 ultra relaxed logical thinking that I am sure you totally have.
[QUOTE=1chains1;43070066]Man, facepunch sh always seems to be under the hindsight is 20/20 effect.
Yea, I think the shooter overreacted and shouldn't of shot the guy, but I guarantee most of you havn't even been in a situation remotely similar to this, so you have no idea how you yourself would've acted faced with this.
But most of you play battlefield so I am sure you would taken command of the situation at 4 am, grabbed a flash light immediately with your super organized thoughts and used your immense knowledge of nonverbal communication to subdue the person.
So lets look at this realistically, the old man was probably just as confused and could've stumbled forward to the person hoping for help. In the dark, you see a person ignoring your commands moving oddly towards you, I am sure you all would've had ages to make a well thought out decision using your advanced training, right?
Get real, life is never as easy and clean cut as you people seem to believe.[/QUOTE]
No, I just wouldn't have gone outside and shot somebody for ringing my damn doorbell.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;43070585]No, I just wouldn't have gone outside and shot somebody for ringing my damn doorbell.[/QUOTE]
well u would
bc ur a big dumby american!
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;43070585]No, I just wouldn't have gone outside and shot somebody for ringing my damn doorbell.[/QUOTE]
Yea, the fact that the guy turned the doorknob also wouldn't make you think something was odd.
Or your fiance scared and calling 911.
Yea I am sure I would let someone break into my house so my loved ones are put at risk.
I love your 20/20 big dumb american, you act like he just opened the door and shot the guy. You have no information and as said the confused old man could've stumbled forward and this in combination with it being dark and no response could cause someone to shoot.
Empathy people, learn it.
[QUOTE=1chains1;43070558]So if it had been a robber, and he had broken into my room, I would've been in a closed in area with an unknown man with my sister in there as well.[/quote]
no i get that but im not convinced that there is a net change in Danger Zone points between one location and the other. maybe only one or two KLPPM (kenny loggins parts per million)
[QUOTE=1chains1;43070558]Maybe you should get off your high horse and view it from a situation in which you aren't comfortably relaxed in your computer chair and maybe you wouldn't be so confused. Just a bit of advice.[/QUOTE]
im actually in a bathtub surrounded by candles like in a dove chocolate ad, I'll have you know.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;43070617]no i get that but im not convinced that there is a net change in Danger Zone points between one location and the other. maybe only one or two KLPPM (kenny loggins parts per million)
im actually in a bathtub surrounded by candles like in a dove chocolate ad, I'll have you know.[/QUOTE]
So in the end you resort to trying to be a comedian at my posts when I present valid points.
Well I am done for now, it is obvious none of you are going to get off your high horse and are going to assume you would have total logical thoughts at 4 am in these circumstances. Because none of you have ever made rash decisions or jumped to conclusions (oh wait you are jumping to conclusions in this thread, jk!!!).
[QUOTE=1chains1;43070651]So in the end you resort to trying to be a comedian at my posts when I present valid points.
Well I am done for now, it is obvious none of you are going to get off your high horse and are going to assume you would have total logical thoughts at 4 am in these circumstances. Because none of you have ever made rash decisions or jumped to conclusions (oh wait you are jumping to conclusions in this thread, jk!!!).[/QUOTE]
Alright, are you globally delayed or something? a "total logical thought" isn't assuming you're life is about to end because someone rang your doorbell at 4am, that's paranoia. Do you not have friends or something? Why not assume it's them in a bind and decided to show up at your house? Come on now, if someone had the intent to murder you in your own home they wouldn't ring the door bell [I]alerting[/I] everyone in the house.
[QUOTE=1chains1;43070651]So in the end you resort to trying to be a comedian at my posts when I present valid points.
Well I am done for now, it is obvious none of you are going to get off your high horse and are going to assume you would have total logical thoughts at 4 am in these circumstances. Because none of you have ever made rash decisions or jumped to conclusions (oh wait you are jumping to conclusions in this thread, jk!!!).[/QUOTE]
if i were to jump to conclusions from a high horse i would probably break my legs, OP
[QUOTE=Arc Nova;43070670]Alright, are you globally delayed or something? a "total logical thought" isn't assuming you're life is about to end because someone rang your doorbell at 4am, that's paranoia. Do you not have friends or something? Why not assume it's them in a bind and decided to show up at your house? Come on now, if someone had the intent to murder you in your own home they wouldn't ring the door bell [I]alerting[/I] everyone in the house.[/QUOTE]
Yea guys he only rang the door bell, he totally didnt try to open the door in his confusion!!!
You people have no empathy and just keep assuming you would act with precise thinking in a situation you havn't even been in before. Keep passing judgement and jumping to conclusions on this guy with almost no information.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;43070686]if i were to jump to conclusions from a high horse i would probably break my legs, OP[/QUOTE]
Well at least you could take the time to learn how to argue while your legs are broken, instead of resorting to childish jokes.
[QUOTE=1chains1;43070611]
Yea I am sure I would let someone break into my house so my loved ones are put at risk.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah I'm sure you'd rather commit manslaughter/murder, then when you're sitting in your cell for a few years you're loved ones are no where near you and are at a potentially higher risk and you're left sitting there being like "Hmm maybe I should have asked questions before sprouting out my peacock fathers and killing a man"
[QUOTE=1chains1;43070611]Yea, the fact that the guy turned the doorknob also wouldn't make you think something was odd.
Or your fiance scared and calling 911.
Yea I am sure I would let someone break into my house so my loved ones are put at risk.
I love your 20/20 big dumb american, you act like he just opened the door and shot the guy. You have no information and as said the confused old man could've stumbled forward and this in combination with it being dark and no response could cause someone to shoot.
Empathy people, learn it.[/QUOTE]
You are literally advocating having an initial response towards an unfamiliar situation as being [I]shoot first, ask questions later[/I]. This is both hilarious and disturbing.
[QUOTE=1chains1;43070066]Man, facepunch sh always seems to be under the hindsight is 20/20 effect.
Yea, I think the shooter overreacted and shouldn't of shot the guy, but I guarantee most of you havn't even been in a situation remotely similar to this, so you have no idea how you yourself would've acted faced with this.
But most of you play battlefield so I am sure you would taken command of the situation at 4 am, grabbed a flash light immediately with your super organized thoughts and used your immense knowledge of nonverbal communication to subdue the person.
So lets look at this realistically, the old man was probably just as confused and could've stumbled forward to the person hoping for help. In the dark, you see a person ignoring your commands moving oddly towards you, I am sure you all would've had ages to make a well thought out decision using your advanced training, right?
Get real, life is never as easy and clean cut as you people seem to believe.[/QUOTE]
Heard a guy trying to climb over my back yard wall at 5am, looked out the window (1st floor, or 2nd floor, depending on where you live and where you start counting), saw guy trying to climb over the wall. Kept looking at him with a wtf face, eventually he noticed my window light, looked me in the eye, jumped off ran away.
If only I had had a gun then, I could have chased and shot him to protect myself!
[QUOTE=1chains1;43070691]Yea guys he only rang the door bell, he totally didnt try to open the door in his confusion!!!
You people have no empathy and just keep assuming you would act with precise thinking in a situation you havn't even been in before. Keep passing judgement and jumping to conclusions on this guy with almost no information.[/QUOTE]
I have no empathy? You're sitting here defending the shooter when all he had to do was remain calm, I'm sure in the first face-to-face confrontation these two men had the 72 year old vet wasn't being threatening. you my friend are the one lacking empathy, this Vet spent his last 4 hours confused and lost only to be shot trying to find his way home. So what if he turned the door-knob? If it's locked it's locked.
[QUOTE=1chains1;43070691]Yea guys he only rang the door bell, he totally didnt try to open the door in his confusion!!!
You people have no empathy and just keep assuming you would act with precise thinking in a situation you havn't even been in before. Keep passing judgement and jumping to conclusions on this guy with almost no information.
Well at least you could take the time to learn how to argue while your legs are broken, instead of resorting to childish jokes.[/QUOTE]
"You have no empathy" says the dude advocating shooting elderly men with Alzheimers to death for being confused and lost.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;43070723]You are literally advocating having an initial response towards an unfamiliar situation as being [I]shoot first, ask questions later[/I]. This is both hilarious and disturbing.[/QUOTE]
Yea man that is what I am arguing.
I am totally not arguing that you people have no empathy and jump to conclusions in a very sketchy situation that none of you ever have been in. Or to further the fact there is a lack of information currently, yet you all seem OF SO SURE.
Obviously I shoot first and ask questions later, because that autistic kid I didn't stab is totally dead.
edit - This is going no where, have a nice day as you think of how much more superior you are, and how you would've handled this situation perfectly with pin point decisions on the spot.
[quote] I have no empathy? You're sitting here defending the shooter when all he had to do was remain calm, I'm sure in the first face-to-face confrontation these two men had the 72 year old vet wasn't being threatening. you my friend are the one lacking empathy, this Vet spent his last 4 hours confused and lost only to be shot trying to find his way home. So what if he turned the door-knob? If it's locked it's locked.[/quote]
Yea because you obviously know that he looked non threatening.
In the dark.
At 4 am.
Not responding.
Possibly stumbling towards the homeowner in confusion.
Yea I don;t have any empathy, I am obviously supporting the shooter!!
Jesus you people jump to conclusions and pass judgement so fast it is mind blowing.
[QUOTE=1chains1;43070747]Yea man that is what I am arguing.
I am totally not arguing that you people have no empathy and jump to conclusions in a very sketchy situation that none of you ever have been in. Or to further the fact there is a lack of information currently, yet you all seem OF SO SURE.
Obviously I shoot first and ask questions later, because that autistic kid I didn't stab is totally dead.[/QUOTE]
...are you just throwing around the word empathy or do you actually know the definition
[QUOTE=1chains1;43070747]Yea man that is what I am arguing.
I am totally not arguing that you people have no empathy and jump to conclusions in a very sketchy situation that none of you ever have been in. Or to further the fact there is a lack of information currently, yet you all seem OF SO SURE.
Obviously I shoot first and ask questions later, because that autistic kid I didn't stab is totally dead.[/QUOTE]
You totally didn't say you almost stabbed him right? Oh wait you did.
[QUOTE=mobrockers;43070725]Heard a guy trying to climb over my back yard wall at 5am, looked out the window (1st floor, or 2nd floor, depending on where you live and where you start counting), saw guy trying to climb over the wall. Kept looking at him with a wtf face, eventually he noticed my window light, looked me in the eye, jumped off ran away.
If only I had a gun then, I could have chased and shot him to protect myself![/QUOTE]
There you go, proof I did the sensible thing in an actual robbery situation :)
Need more?
This one time when we got back from vacation and walked in to the kitchen, we saw a guy trying to get our kitchen door open (leads to back yard). Mum had a talk with em and we showed him the door after giving him some water.
If only we'd have had a gun, we could have shot him to protect ourselves instead of giving him some water and showing him the door!
im going to find where you live and ring your door at 4am just to see your actual reaction
[QUOTE=TheAdmiester;43066704]Who rings a doorbell to rob someone?[/QUOTE]
The robber who wants to make sure that nobody is home.
[QUOTE=1chains1;43070747]Yea man that is what I am arguing.
I am totally not arguing that you people have no empathy and jump to conclusions in a very sketchy situation that none of you ever have been in. Or to further the fact there is a lack of information currently, yet you all seem OF SO SURE.
Obviously I shoot first and ask questions later, because that autistic kid I didn't stab is totally dead.
edit - This is going no where, have a nice day as you think of how much more superior you are, and how you would've handled this situation perfectly with pin point decisions on the spot.
Yea because you obviously know that he looked non threatening.
In the dark.
At 4 am.
Not responding.
Possibly stumbling towards the homeowner in confusion.
Yea I don;t have any empathy, I am obviously supporting the shooter!!
Jesus you people jump to conclusions and pass judgement so fast it is mind blowing.[/QUOTE]
holy fuck a guy at 4am bang bang
maybe it's because Im Canadian but this seems fucking retarded
[QUOTE=Arc Nova;43070763]...are you just throwing around the word empathy or do you actually know the definition[/QUOTE]
The ability to put yourself in someone elses shoes.
Obviously you don't have any as you can't seem to put yourself in the shooters situation. Or if you do, you do so thinking that you would somehow be able to make extremely logical and thought out decisions in the heat of the moment.
Again, you people don't even present good arguments, you just attack some unrelated point in my post and cling to it.
[QUOTE=1chains1;43070747]Yea man that is what I am arguing.
I am totally not arguing that you people have no empathy and jump to conclusions in a very sketchy situation that none of you ever have been in. Or to further the fact there is a lack of information currently, yet you all seem OF SO SURE.
Obviously I shoot first and ask questions later, because that autistic kid I didn't stab is totally dead.
edit - This is going no where, have a nice day as you think of how much more superior you are, and how you would've handled this situation perfectly with pin point decisions on the spot.
Yea because you obviously know that he looked non threatening.
In the dark.
At 4 am.
Not responding.
Possibly stumbling towards the homeowner in confusion.
Yea I don;t have any empathy, I am obviously supporting the shooter!!
Jesus you people jump to conclusions and pass judgement so fast it is mind blowing.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't take "pin point decisions" to say to yourself, "Hmm, maybe I shouldn't go outside and shoot this guy dead for ringing my doorbell?"
If he's scaring you, call the flippin' cops. As long as he's outside and you're in, there's no grounds whatsoever to go confront him personally. That's dim as heck.
[QUOTE=1chains1;43070805]The ability to put yourself in someone elses shoes.
Obviously you don't have any as you can't seem to put yourself in the shooters situation. Or if you do, you do so thinking that you would somehow be able to make extremely logical and thought out decisions in the heat of the moment.
Again, you people don't even present good arguments, you just attack some unrelated point in my post and cling to it.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1330612&p=43070765&viewfull=1#post43070765[/url]
See above link for logical and thought out decisions in the heat of the moment.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;43070809]It doesn't take "pin point decisions" to say to yourself, "Hmm, maybe I shouldn't go outside and shoot this guy dead for ringing my doorbell?"
If he's scaring you, call the flippin' cops. As long as he's outside and you're in, there's no grounds whatsoever to go confront him personally. That's dim as heck.[/QUOTE]
See look, a point in my argument exactly. You just simplify the situation to the most extreme.
"oh the guy just ringed the doorbell and the guy shot him!!"
Yea there were no other factors at play at all.
edit - You people keep thinking I am supporting the shooter. All I am asking is for a bit of restraint and some empathy before passing judgement with almost no information at all. But of course you people obviously aren't going to do that, so have a nice day.
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