Mute Air Force Veteran with advanced Alzheimer's murdered after ringing doorbell: Stand Your Ground - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Chernobyl426;43071224]So instead of arguing about the case, you wanna pull race out of your ass to argue about? Not the law even. The racial perspective of the law.[/QUOTE] What are you even doing, man? I brought it up because this was a case where we are discussing the SYG law, and other cases of "justifiable homicide," and I am criticizing the nature of these laws. You're the one breaking topic to try to chastise me for something I wasn't even doing.

[QUOTE=zombays;43071185]The thing is, the guy had Alzheimer's. My grandpa has late-stage dementia and when they tried to put him in a home, he cold-cocked the nurse in the jaw. Confused people are always the most dangerous, and both parties were confused. Volatile reaction right there. He felt threatened by a guy standing in his yard at 4AM who wouldn't respond to anything he said who most likely was approaching him and so he shot him. Did he make anywhere near a good decision? No. He fucked up, I never said he shouldn't go to jail, he should because he killed a guy who was actually unarmed. But [B]HE DIDN'T KNOW THAT[/B] Like 1chains1 said, you guys are the kings of hindsight [B]HIND[/B]sight. You know it's wrong now, but the guy at 4AM didn't and he was terrified, we don't know what happened exactly, definitely not you.[/QUOTE] I still don't get what exactly your point is? You're not saying much different from what we are except that you're trying to justify it (even though you're saying you're not).

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;43071262]What are you even doing, man? I brought it up because this was a case where we are discussing the SYG law, and other cases of "justifiable homicide," and I am criticizing the nature of these laws.[B] You're the one breaking topic to try to chastise me.[/B][/QUOTE] Says the guy who just nitpicked a bunch of my posts to point out something completely unrelated to the argument.

[QUOTE=zombays;43071253]That's good, that's responsible, but it was an old dude with alzheimer's who was a mute and it was at night.[/QUOTE] Dude, he's saying he'd cover up the crime.

[QUOTE=1chains1;43071068]I said none of you have been in the situation so you wouldn't know how you would act given the circumstances. Yet you seem to be hellbent on exaggerating everything. Angsty teen was not the first insult, you have made snide posts the entire duration here and even entered the thread mocking me in all caps. You have not done one respectful post, and you act like I slapped you all when I said your opinion obviously isn't going to change. Was I wrong? Is your opinion going to change? I said I was going to leave because people like you can't seem to handle arguments and resort to crude jokes and insults instead of trying to be a bit more respectful to your fellow man.[/QUOTE] I didn't enter this thread typing in caps, maybe try reading things correctly, maybe then you'll notice i was posting on page two long before you made your insanity known. [QUOTE=Arc Nova;43070442]When someone rings my door at 4am I don't immediately think I'm about to be murdered, yknow since they [I]rang the doorbell[/I]. You Americans sure are paranoid.[/QUOTE] Man look at that snide caps lock insulting post

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;43070736]"You have no empathy" says the dude advocating shooting elderly men with Alzheimers to death for being confused and lost.[/QUOTE] Where the fuck does he advocate it? You're assuming things that haven't happened, you're being extremely biased, and every time you reply, you're always saying "advocate" or "implying" or other shit that is not true. You're blowing things out of proportion and you get angry at the things you imagined.

[QUOTE=1chains1;43071268]Says the guy who just nitpicked a bunch of my posts to point out something completely unrelated to the argument.[/QUOTE] Says the guy who's definition of making a good argument is repeatedly threatening to storm off like a petulant child when he realizes that his points are based on wild exaggerations of what actually happened and are entirely hypothetical.

[QUOTE=Arc Nova;43071285]I didn't enter this thread typing in caps, maybe try reading things correctly, maybe then you'll notice i was posting on page two long before you made your insanity known. Man look at that snide caps lock insulting post[/QUOTE] Oh sorry, let me fix that then, every post you have made directed at me has had some kind of insult and has not presented any kind of respectful argument. But yes I am insane asking for you people not to jump to conclusions and have more empathy for both parties. [QUOTE]Says the guy who's definition of making a good argument is repeatedly threatening to storm off like a petulant child when he realizes that his points are based on wild exaggerations of what actually happened and are entirely hypothetical.[/QUOTE] Yea you aren't guilty of over simplifying or exaggerating at all. Like how you just said my posts have consisted of me saying I am leaving, when generally there is about 95% more to each post with an actual argument.

[QUOTE=zombays;43071074] Goddamn, you're missing the point. You're right, but THAT'S THE THING! Neither parties were in their right state of mind and this sort of shit happens. And yes, elderly people can still kill people, they're not fucking useless.[/QUOTE] 72 year old vs young 30 year old male wonder who will win [editline]4th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=1chains1;43071317]Oh sorry, let me fix that then, every post you have made directed at me has had some kind of insult and has not presented any kind of respectful argument. [/QUOTE] reserving this space to gather all points ive addressed in this thread brb

[QUOTE=Arc Nova;43071321]72 year old vs young 30 year old male wonder who will win [editline]4th December 2013[/editline] reserving this space to gather all points ive addressed in this thread brb[/QUOTE] I said posts directed at me.

[QUOTE=mobrockers;43071267]I still don't get what exactly your point is? You're not saying much different from what we are except that you're trying to justify it (even though you're saying you're not).[/QUOTE] I've been saying that it's not justified, but confusion does this, and to say that the man was completely in the wrong is true, but you gotta look at what happened. I might be entirely wrong, but you could also be entirely wrong. It's the confusion found in the aftermath, but from what I have read, the guy wasn't thinking straight (both the gunman and the veteran, clearly) and to say he was being a jackass is somewhat true, but once again, this is what [B]CONFUSION[/B] does. We make bad calls, cause we're human, and we're stupid. When you fuck something up, you make an excuse, when someone else does it, "ENTIRELY THEIR FAULT, NO EXCUSES" It's horseshit.

[QUOTE=Arc Nova;43071321]72 year old vs young 30 year old male wonder who will win [editline]4th December 2013[/editline] reserving this space to gather all points ive addressed in this thread brb[/QUOTE] 30 year old male with a cocked shotgun in his hands.

[QUOTE=Arc Nova;43071321]72 year old vs young 30 year old male wonder who will win [/QUOTE] I've seen 4 year olds in martial arts classes take down someone twice their height. My point is that you're underestimating the damage that a confused old man with alzheimer's can do. Like I said earlier, my grandpa is 91 and he cold-cocked a nurse when they tried to place him in a home. Don't underestimate old people. I'm not saying that what the gunman did was justified. No, sir, but you're assuming shit that you just don't know anything about. I'm making my point based off what I have read in the article. Your point is "old people are frail and weak" even though it isn't even implied that the veteran was weak, for all we know he could've kicked a door down, but we don't know, so I'm not going to say that.

[QUOTE=1chains1;43071317]Oh sorry, let me fix that then, every post you have made directed at me has had some kind of insult and has not presented any kind of respectful argument. [/QUOTE] If you want people to argue against you with respect, then maybe you could try peppering your own posts with a bit less [I]disrespect?[/I] You're making a massive hypocrite of yourself, and it's the main reason why people are jumping down your throat so aggressively about this. [QUOTE=1chains1;43070066]Man, facepunch sh always seems to be under the hindsight is 20/20 effect. [/quote] [QUOTE=1chains1;43070066]But most of you play battlefield so I am sure you would taken command of the situation at 4 am, grabbed a flash light immediately with your super organized thoughts and used your immense knowledge of nonverbal communication to subdue the person. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=1chains1;43070066]I am sure you all would've had ages to make a well thought out decision using your advanced training, right? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=1chains1;43070066]Get real, life is never as easy and clean cut as you people seem to believe.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=1chains1;43070341]but you guys are so quick to pass judgement and take the high horse.[/quote] [QUOTE=1chains1;43070341]You can only look at it from the comfort and relatively relaxed situation you are in right now and scoff "OH I WOULDVE DONE THAT SOOOOO MUCH DIFFERENTLY!!!" [/quote] [QUOTE=1chains1;43070341]I would love to see one of you woken up suddenly at 4 am and hear someone turning your doorknob knocking and say "oh its probably an old man who is confused!!!".[/quote] [QUOTE=1chains1;43070558]I know personally the first thing I would think given the circumstances would be "a robber is trying to see if anyone is home".[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=1chains1;43070558]Maybe you should get off your high horse and view it from a situation in which you aren't comfortably relaxed in your computer chair and maybe you wouldn't be so confused. Just a bit of advice.[/quote] [QUOTE=1chains1;43070558]Also you are right, Amercians are paranoid, we have a different society and culture, which should let you understand that this guy would act differently from your 24/7 ultra relaxed logical thinking that I am sure you totally have.[/QUOTE] I mean, I could keep going, but this is only about three posts in. Everything you've written in this thread has been absolutely gushing with bitter sarcasm, blatant disrespect, and a completely undeserved [I]holier-than-thou[/I] sense of superiority. How about leading by example?

[QUOTE=1chains1;43070066]Man, facepunch sh always seems to be under the hindsight is 20/20 effect. Yea, I think the shooter overreacted and shouldn't of shot the guy, but I guarantee most of you havn't even been in a situation remotely similar to this, so you have no idea how you yourself would've acted faced with this. But most of you play battlefield so I am sure you would taken command of the situation at 4 am, grabbed a flash light immediately with your super organized thoughts and used your immense knowledge of nonverbal communication to subdue the person. So lets look at this realistically, the old man was probably just as confused and could've stumbled forward to the person hoping for help. In the dark, you see a person ignoring your commands moving oddly towards you, I am sure you all would've had ages to make a well thought out decision using your advanced training, right? Get real, life is never as easy and clean cut as you people seem to believe.[/QUOTE] are you missing the part where he just rang the doorbell youre acting like this was an organised assault ive answered my door before. i didnt need any reconnaissance training.

[QUOTE=Rusty100;43071409]are you missing the part where he just rang the doorbell youre acting like this was an organised assault ive answered my door before. i didnt need any reconnaissance training.[/QUOTE] Yeah, but 4AM confusion leads to stupid shit like this.

[QUOTE=zombays;43071437]Yeah, but 4AM confusion leads to stupid shit like this.[/QUOTE] if your first thought when someone rings your doorbell at 4am is "time to shoot people up" you don't deserve a firearm

I quit, [I]I quit,[/I] [B]I QUIT![/B] Mostly because this is a mexican standoff [editline]4th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=LordCrypto;43071452]if your first thought when someone rings your doorbell at 4am is "time to shoot people up" you don't deserve a firearm[/QUOTE] Agreed

[QUOTE=zombays;43071455]I quit, [I]I quit,[/I] [B]I QUIT![/B] Mostly because this is a mexican standoff [editline]4th December 2013[/editline] Agreed[/QUOTE] what exactly are you arguing??

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;43071466]what exactly are you arguing??[/QUOTE] I don't really get him either. Is he like, saying we're too harsh on the guy even though he does recognize there's no justifying what the guy did?

[QUOTE=zombays;43071392]I've seen 4 year olds in martial arts classes take down someone twice their height. My point is that you're underestimating the damage that a confused old man with alzheimer's can do. Like I said earlier, my grandpa is 91 and he cold-cocked a nurse when they tried to place him in a home. Don't underestimate old people. I'm not saying that what the gunman did was justified. No, sir, but you're assuming shit that you just don't know anything about. I'm making my point based off what I have read in the article. Your point is "old people are frail and weak" even though it isn't even implied that the veteran was weak, for all we know he could've kicked a door down, but we don't know, so I'm not going to say that.[/QUOTE] yeah this Alzheimer patient knows karate

The world would be a much better place if we replaced guns with sandwiches.

or digitally replaced them with walkie talkies [editline]4th December 2013[/editline] i guess its just hard to justify this in my mind because i grew up in a small neighborhood in the middle of nowhere where everyone knew each other, and a lot of places are just like that, but this guy just outright murdered this old person even if he didn't initially try to, when he stopped the 911 call and went outside he surrendered all protections under the castle doctrine and he should go to jail for his crimes, which sucks because this all could have been avoided if he had just thought for a minute before pulling out the gun, now his life is going to be ruined (hopefully) and someone's relative is dead, and 2 families are ruined because one paranoid idiot decided to shoot first and ask questions later

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;43070979] I'm criticizing the current state of justifiable homicide laws, which are deeply biased against minorities, [I]not[/I] this specific story. How about you read the first line a post before shitting bricks over what you assume is somebody trying to make this case into a race issue? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE] Not much can be done about racist judges and juries.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;43072283]Not much can be done about racist judges and juries.[/QUOTE] More clearly defined and regulated laws certainly could. When "I felt like I was in danger" is the basis for judging whether or not a shooting was justified, that leaves a [I]lot[/I] o' room for interpretation and bias. This thread here is a pretty good example of it, to be honest. Most people would feel that a mentally disabled old man who couldn't speak and didn't know where he was isn't something that is particularly threatening, but apparently the shooter felt a bit differently. While I sincerely doubt that his defense will hold up in court, there are, apparently, folks who agree that his mortal fear of a confused old man was totally understandable. This vaguity opens the system to personal biases and prejudices. While it is likely impossible to completely remove bias and prejudice from the legal system, at least for as long as it is run by people and not some kind of robot overlord, it should not quite so inviting to it. The evidence of this racism is a bit concerning, to say the least! If anything, I feel that the US court system as a whole is largely flawed. I would look abroad for better systems and solutions in an attempt to make the courts more fair and objective on a general level.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;43066650]If you thought someone was enough of a threat to call the cops and load your gun, why on earth would you go outside to confront them?[/QUOTE] maybe to tell him "you better get out of here before the cops show up, they're already been called" or something

[QUOTE=Stroma;43072597]maybe to tell him "you better get out of here before the cops show up, they're already been called" or something[/QUOTE] And then to shoot him, just to let him know I mean business! [editline]4th December 2013[/editline] How you like me now, you old bastard?

[QUOTE=zombays;43071185]The thing is, the guy had Alzheimer's. My grandpa has late-stage dementia and when they tried to put him in a home, he cold-cocked the nurse in the jaw. Confused people are always the most dangerous, and both parties were confused. Volatile reaction right there. He felt threatened by a guy standing in his yard at 4AM who wouldn't respond to anything he said who most likely was approaching him and so he shot him. Did he make anywhere near a good decision? No. He fucked up, I never said he shouldn't go to jail, he should because he killed a guy who was actually unarmed. But [B]HE DIDN'T KNOW THAT[/B] Like 1chains1 said, you guys are the kings of hindsight [B]HIND[/B]sight. You know it's wrong now, but the guy at 4AM didn't and he was terrified, we don't know what happened exactly, definitely not you.[/QUOTE] So don't leave the house then? If there is someone outside your house, on the other side of a locked door, then by unlocking the door and going out to confront them, you are the person actively seeking a confrontation. This man could have stayed inside, and let the police/paramedics deal with it when they arrived. But instead he decided to go outside and create a confrontation where there wasn't one.

Reading this thread makes me realize how much Stand Your Ground is alike to Random Death Match. Its sorta hilarious actually. Back to the story though, I actually wonder why the guy shot him. If it was simply, "you are on my lawn!" that's murder. If it was, "this guy is on my lawn, and is trying to get into my house, and is refusing to step off my property" I could [I]maybe[/I] understand that. The thing I have a problem with though, is if he wasn't able to get into the household, why the fuck would you confront him? If he busts down through your door, that's when you act to deal with it, but if you can keep your door secure, and call the Police, that should be what you do.

everyone, i would like you to take a solemn 1 minute of silence to contemplate the thought that today, in this thread, more than 1 (one) human being actually not only contemplated but went through with defending a dude who shot an old man who rang his doorbell. [QUOTE=GunFox;43066645]No, they really shouldn't. This isn't protected under stand your ground laws. The shooter left the dwelling to confront the guy, who merely refused commands, but made no aggressive maneuvers. No forcible entry or anything of the sort. It is plainly illegal. The idea that it might not be prosecuted is purely speculation. Stand your ground is precisely what it sounds like. If someone threatens you, and a reasonable person would perceive it as a valid and IMMINENT threat of serious bodily harm (like s/he has a weapon and has it in hand) you do not have to first attempt to flee provided you have a legal right to be where you are. Since turning your back to an assailant can easily result in your death, it removes your requirement to do so.[/QUOTE] look at this. u see this? this is GunFox. the dude who usually gets freaky over guns and talked about how it was good that TSA people were killed and generally reduces the value of human life in his posts all over the place even he thinks this is wrong and blatantly fucked up. how can u even feel like a proper human being when you're arguing against gunfox is beyond me. you should actually feel fucking awful if you defended this situation from the point of the shooter and are not a lawyer.