[QUOTE=ohadje;28872673]Uh, bullshit. I don't have the time to destroy your bullshit, because I have other matters to do, be a simple googling will do.[/QUOTE]
If you can't refute what I said, man up about it. Don't childishly dismiss it by claiming "you don't have enough time to destroy my bullshit." if you can't.
A simple Google search has yielded this result: [URL="http://www.google.com/search?q=womens+rights+in+islam&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=XGa&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&ei=AeWRTbvsEsamhAeSxrWPDw&ved=0CB0QBSgA&q=women%27s+rights+in+islam&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=f05d2ab524568127"]http://www.google.com/search?q=womens+rights+in+islam&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=XGa&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&ei=AeWRTbvsEsamhAeSxrWPDw&ved=0CB0QBSgA&q=women%27s+rights+in+islam&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=f05d2ab524568127[/URL] which backs my claim.
Unless your definition of a 'simple Google search' involved looking for clips of the Taliban stoning adulterers.
[QUOTE=ohadje;28872358]No.[/QUOTE]
Yeah man! fuck muzzies! kill some hadjs for lyfe, bro
idf forever!
[editline]29th March 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=ohadje;28872673]Uh, bullshit. I don't have the time to destroy your bullshit, because I have other matters to do, be a simple googling will do.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm
I googled it.
'O You who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the Mahr (bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at time of marriage) you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honorably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings
through it a great deal of good." (An-Nisa 4:19)'
OH WAIT, it appears we were right
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re7O5q3xuTg[/media]
Sweet, going to go to the United Arab Emirates and rape married women and get off free! :v: Jackpot
This is why we should be going to war with these countries for their oil, we will teach them western laws and teach them our ways of life while we get their oil.
Mutual Benefit.
Yeah fuck them and their pussy asses, they don't deserve oil with the way they treat women.
I followed ohadje's advice on doing a 'simple Google search' and I learned new stuff.
To continue on to what I was saying, on agreeing with her on the lack of women rights in extremist Islam and the promotion of women’s rights fundamental Islam, for example, in pre-Islam, female infanticide was rampant and uncontrolled; they were simply discarded at birth, partly due to the fact that they had no independence, could own no property and were not allowed to inherit. In times of war, women were treated as part of the prize. Simply put, their condition was unspeakable.
And Googling "women's rights in Islam" etc. it led me to what appears to be the Qu’ran addressing this act specifically, condemning it: [quote=Quran (An-Nahl 16:58-59)]"And when the news of (the birth of) a female (child) is brought to any of them, his face becomes dark, and he is filled with inward grief! He hides himself from the people because of the evil of that whereof he has been informed. Shall he keep her with dishonor or bury her in the earth? [B]Certainly, evil is their decision[/B]."[/quote]
And this is partly why that teacher, whose knowledge is surpassed by yours to the point you don’t even need to refute the claims, has a political degree in science and you don’t.
[QUOTE=joshdasmif;28872880]This is why we should be going to war with these countries for their oil, we will teach them western laws and teach them our ways of life while we get their oil.
Mutual Benefit.[/QUOTE]
Your avatar fits this post
Something has to be done about the way the Middle East works.
Al Aqah Review:
Pool: 5 stars: Well-kept, great
Rooms: 4.5 stars: Amazing. One of the beds smelled a bit weird, though.
Cuisine: 5 stars: Delicious.
Human Rights: 0.5 stars: None. I'm going to be jailed for this review. I hope you're happy.
_____
Poor woman.
[QUOTE=The LocalFlavor;28872024]Muslims protesting against corrupt governments?
What exactly is your point?
[/QUOTE]
That the middel Eastern society's are evolving just like we did a few 100 years ago.
A part of that is letting go of a Quran based law system and getting a democratic goverment where everyone is equal.
Also why do this kind of story's never come from Indonesia? the biggest Islamic group in the world? And do Islamitic citizens themselves think that stoning women to death for shit like this should be legal?
And if they do, are they brainwashed or just have a different opinion then ours?
I dont know.
We are not the ones that need to interfere there, its their own choice. (But if a western citizen like this woman would be attacked we have every right to get her out in any way we deem necessary.)
Related is Libiya:
In my opinion we should also stay away from Libiya if we hadnt sold him all the weapons and made him rich by buyin oil, leaving him in a position where he could cause harm to the masses. We gave him the means for him to be who he is, so we should also fix it.
This is just plain dumb. She was raped, she didn't want to engage in the sexual act.
This is like blaming the bank robbery on the cashier.
"You gave them the money, and I don't care if they had a shotgun in their face, you're going to jail instead of them! :downs:"
Lol how the fuck is being drugged and then raped when you can't do anything about it "sex outside of marriage?"
Doesn't sex constitute consent? That's why if you have sex with kids it's called rape, they aren't able to give consent.
[editline]29th March 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=joshdasmif;28872880]This is why we should be going to war with these countries for their oil, we will teach them western laws and teach them our ways of life while we get their oil.
Mutual Benefit.[/QUOTE]
Lol.
[QUOTE=taipan;28874411]That the middel Eastern society's are evolving just like we did a few 100 years ago.
A part of that is letting go of a Quran based law system and getting a democratic goverment where everyone is equal.[/quote]
They're not fighting a Quran based law system. And the people they replace them with are still Muslim.
[quote]Also why do this kind of story's never come from Indonesia? the biggest Islamic group in the world? And do Islamitic citizens themselves think that stoning women to death for shit like this should be legal?
And if they do, are they brainwashed or just have a different opinion then ours?[/quote]
People are fucked up, welcome to life. No matter what the implications are, if you take a given system, of what they beleive is of a higher power, and corrupt whatever has been established, then you corrupt. Whatever implication regarding it is null.
[quote]We are not the ones that need to interfere there, its their own choice. (But if a western citizen like this woman would be attacked we have every right to get her out in any way we deem necessary.)[/quote]
What the fuck are you saying?
[quote]Related is Libiya:
In my opinion we should also stay away from Libiya if we hadnt sold him all the weapons and made him rich by buyin oil, leaving him in a position where he could cause harm to the masses. We gave him the means for him to be who he is, so we should also fix it.[/QUOTE]
you are a terrible poster.
This pisses me off to no end...
[QUOTE=Starpluck;28872707]If you can't refute what I said, man up about it. Don't childishly dismiss it by claiming "you don't have enough time to destroy my bullshit." if you can't.[/quote]
You know, sometimes people have things, real-life things, to do, and they come in a higher priority to a forum discussion. Well, now I'm finished with what I had to do, and can now refute your arguments (as well as LocalFlavors', which I suspect is the beloved warhol? If not, then I apologize).
Does the Quran hold women to be equal to man? The short answer is quite simple: No.
The Quran has an entire Surah (chapter) dealing with women, and there it deals with women's rights on different issues, such as divorce, finance and more (but I won't only quote from that Sura_. Here are a few examples (by the way, all of the quotes are from [url=http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.html]here[/url]):
1. "Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): [b]to the male, a portion equal to that of two females[/b]" (Sura 4, 011) - Quite obviously, a man's portion is twice bigger than a woman's portion.
2. "Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your [b]own men[/b], and if there are not two men, [b]then a man and two women[/b][...]" (Sura 2, 282) -Here we easily get the equation that "2 man=1 man+2 women", or in other words, one man equals two women.
3. ". If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance: If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance" (Sura 2, 176) -Same as the first example.
4. "Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise." (Sura 2, 228) -Men have the upper hand at the subject of divorce.
5. And last (but not least): "As to those women on whose [b]part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct[/b], admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) [u][b]beat them (lightly)[/b][/u];" (Sura 4, 034) -Equality at it's finest.
This can go on and on, but I think I've made my point.
[quote]And this is partly why that teacher, whose knowledge is surpassed by yours to the point you don’t even need to refute the claims, has a political degree in science and you don’t.[/quote]
Uh, political science is not theology. Me and him (or her) have the same authority on the subject, and I have just demonstrated above how the Quran teaches that: A man can beat his women, a man's testimony worths a testimony of two women and so on.
[b]The LocalFlavor[/b]
[quote]Yeah man! fuck muzzies! kill some hadjs for lyfe, bro
idf forever![/quote]
I don't even know what you are talking about. Is that some sort of a lousy ass strawman?
[quote]
I googled it.
'O You who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the Mahr (bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at time of marriage) you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honorably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings
through it a great deal of good." (An-Nisa 4:19)'[/quote]
This does not however, can be in anyway interpreted saying "Women have equal rights to men". In fact, some of the verses I quoted above (from the same Sura, Ah-Nisa (Women)), and later than this one, demonstrates how the Quran does not teach equality between men and women.
[QUOTE=Miskav;28870354]As if the bible has any value to a person with average to above average intelligence.
Sadly, this is 0% of the people making laws.[/QUOTE]
This just seems like a stupid and uninformed thing to say. Aside from the obvious historical importance there's just as many good things in the Christian Bible as there are bad. The fact that it was written, compiled, and edited by many different people means it's not exactly the pinnacle of consistency. But to disregard any good from the book because of the small amounts of stupid is stupidity on your part.
[QUOTE=Mr. Bleak;28870347]You know, there is something similar to this in the Bible.
Bible posted:
Deuteronomy 22:23-24: If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
Ridiculously sad that practices like this from hundreds upon hundreds of years ago are still considered valid.[/QUOTE]
Well, I'm off the hook
[QUOTE=ohadje;28877156]Does the Quran hold women to be equal to man? The short answer is quite simple: No. [/QUOTE]
I'm sure you'll discover most things that were written hundreds of years ago are like that.
[QUOTE=Habsburg;28877784]I'm sure you'll discover most things that were written hundreds of years ago are like that.[/QUOTE]
That's of course true. I'm not trying to point out the Quran or any other Islamic text as unique in its' treatment to women, or preaching many other things that may be considered wrong in modern society (stoning, etc'). I want that to be clear.
[QUOTE=Mr. Bleak;28870347]You know, there is something similar to this in the Bible.
Ridiculously sad that practices like this from hundreds upon hundreds of years ago are still considered valid.[/QUOTE]
I think you've misunderstood. If she isn't crying for help when people could easily provide assistance, it's more than likely she's committing adultery and is therefore under penalty of death.
You probably won't listen if I try to explain why people had to be stoned to death, though.
She's good looking. I'm sad that this happened, not because she's hot, but because it's wrong.
I'd like to amend my previous post.
There are possibly some statements that are meant to be interpreted as metaphors. I say possibly, as the authors never wrote their intentions. Passages such as this one:
[quote=Matthew 18:21-22]Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" 22 Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[/quote]
Either 77 means that you should forgive someone that many times or you should just forgive someone a lot. With the way Jesus is portrayed, I think it meant the latter.
Now here's First Corinthians on sexism:
[quote=1 Corinthians 11:3-10]But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.) That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels.[/quote]
Interpret that please.
Well, I am not going to head to the middle east any time soon!
I am not surprised at sexist comments in religious literature though, at the times they were written sexism was the norm. It's a shame that these days there are still groups who follow this outdated crap though, religion doesn't bother me except when people use it to hurt or put down others.
[QUOTE=xXDictatorXx;28880311]Well, I am not going to head to the middle east any time soon!
I am not surprised at sexist comments in religious literature though, at the times they were written sexism was the norm. It's a shame that these days there are still groups who follow this outdated crap though, religion doesn't bother me except when people use it to hurt or put down others.[/QUOTE]
Well said...
I want to glass the middle east so fucking bad.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Genocide BS" - Starpluck))[/highlight]
[highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Alt of permabanned user, creep, all-around bad poster." - Craptasket))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=PelPix123;28895443]All the financial examples are because, in Islam, men are considered the providers of women. [i]The sons were given more money so that they could spend it all on their sisters.[/i]
As for "beat," that's mistranslated. It means "scorn," not "beat"[/QUOTE]
Mistranslated?
Lets have a look:
The translation of the verse by [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Yusuf_Ali]Abdullah Yusuf Ali[/url]:"As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) [b]beat them[/b] (lightly);"
The translation of the verse by [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmaduke_Pickthall]Marmaduke Pickthall[/url]: "As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and [b]scourge[/b] them."
The translation of the verse by [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Habib_Shakir]Muhammad Habib Shakir[/url]: "and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and [b]beat them[/b]"
(All taken from [url=http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.html]here[/url])
These three people, Yusuf, Pickthall and Shakir are well known scholers of Islam, masters of the Arabic language, and two out of the three were Muslims themselves. These three translations are most popular (especially Yusuf's) in the English speaking world, and used by Muslims themselves (as seen in the website I use as a source).
As for the reason [i]why[/i] there was discrimination against women, I think that's a separate discussion, but although interesting, it doesn't change anything about women's inequality in the Islamic texts.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;28895771]Regardless of their expertise, wide usage, and history, I disagree with the validity of the translations of all three of them. You can call me stupid if you want.[/QUOTE]
Original text:
الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُوا مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ ۚ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللَّهُ ۚ وَاللَّاتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ ۖ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلَا تَبْغُوا عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلًا ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا
[[url="http://www.oneummah.net/quran/book/4.html"]Source[/url]]
Not really a good translation, but google translates it as:
"[...]who are afraid of and then leave them alone in their beds and beat them you heed the do not[..]"
Try it for yourself.
:wtc:UAE:wtc:
[QUOTE=PelPix123;28895897]I believe the same thing about Arabic that I believe about Hebrew; That it's been mistranslated for so long that the mistranslations have replaced the original definitions of the words [i]even in the actual language[/i][/QUOTE]lol'd.
[quote]
Like ancient Hebrew, ancient Arabic is a mathematical language in which several meanings are encoded at once. These meanings are read by interpreting words and phrases as the sum of their parts, rather than words being translated whole.
[/quote]
I don't even... You know what? Since I'm a fluent Hebrew speaker, I would like you to show an example of what the hell are you talking about...
[quote]However, bara does not mean solely "create," it means "choose."[/quote]
As far as I know, it does not. Where did you get that from?
[quote]We've reached Elohim. Normally this is translated as "God," but if we break it down, we see that Elohim is the plural of Eloah, and that, since the Hebrew letters that make it up have both male and female genders in style intermixed, it is more properly translated as "Gods and Goddesses"
"et" simply marks the accusative case.[/quote]
Actually, uh, no, it doesn't have any female characteristics. Elohim is the plural of Eloah indeed, but "Eloah" isn't a female form of anything. In fact, it is derived of Canaanite God "El". Just because a words ends with the "ah" suffix, doesn't make it female. For instance, the male form of the number "3" is Shlosh[b]ah[/b].
Do you speak Hebrew?
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