Ukranian SS Leader Accused of War Crimes found living in Minnesota - Polidicks

[QUOTE=yawmwen;41038105]nah we should just consider ourselves civilized enough that we won't continue with witch hunts that end up trying to punish people without actually gaining any benefit from the proceedings.[/QUOTE] So we shouldn't let justice served because we won't get any benefits from it? I guess we should free every prisoner thats locked up now.

[QUOTE=Iago;41038267]So we shouldn't let justice served because we won't get any benefits from it? I guess we should free every prisoner thats locked up now.[/QUOTE] we don't get any justice from a court proceeding. we don't get any justice from putting him in a cell. the only way we will get justice is if he, of his own free will, comes forward to take responsibility for his crimes.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;41038209]we aren't enforcing the law by chasing him. if we actually enforced the law our presidents would be hanging in the gallows right next to every nazi murderer. we just want something to hunt, someone to be a universal bad guy we can hate and punish.[/QUOTE] oh shit dude I can't handle all the edge

[QUOTE=popbob;41037787]Considering we slap wrists over soldiers in the US military for killing civilians all of the time, your post comes off as extremely hypocritical.[/QUOTE] Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure those pilots were locked up, so were the guys who shot those people in that house, and the guys who pissed on that corpse.

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;41038424]oh shit dude I can't handle all the edge[/QUOTE] "quick label anything that isn't the mainstream accepted idea edgy so it can stop threatening my worldview!" [editline]14th June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;41038432]Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure those pilots were locked up, so were the guys who shot those people in that house, and the guys who pissed on that corpse.[/QUOTE] did we arrest the generals and president when dam striking was ordered in vietnam? or the systematic destruction of entire villages and their food supply? what about dam busting programs that destroyed north korean farms during the korean war? was roosevelt held to answer for the bombing of dresden or tokyo? was truman hung for authorizing the destruction of nagasaki? our government SYSTEMATICALLY commits war crimes on par with many of the wartime atrocities the nazis committed.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;41038435]"quick label anything that isn't the mainstream accepted idea edgy so it can stop threatening my worldview!"[/QUOTE] what is verbal irony your arguments aren't new and they aren't outside the mainstream No one denies issues in the legal system or powers of the president I don't need to do mental gymnastics to try and justify the actions of any nation or military but if there is credible evidence that points to an individual being a war criminal that person must face trial by a jury of peers or are enlightenment ideals too passé

[QUOTE=popbob;41037787]Considering we slap wrists over soldiers in the US military for killing civilians all of the time, your post comes off as extremely hypocritical.[/QUOTE] well yeah because those dudes aren't going to be dead of old age this time next year. pursuing justice has a purpose when we're dealing with people who have the time left to make amends, without that it's just a completely pointless waste of time

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;41038545]what is verbal irony your arguments aren't new and they aren't outside the mainstream No one denies issues in the legal system or powers of the president I don't need to do mental gymnastics to try and justify the actions of any nation or military but if there is credible evidence that points to an individual being a war criminal that person must face trial by a jury of peers or are enlightenment ideals too passé[/QUOTE] so why an old man and not president obama?

[QUOTE=mikerocks;41037678]I don't think we should let people, even if it was a long time ago, get away with commanding soldiers to massacre innocent people.[/QUOTE] Oh shit, here it begins....whether prescription applies to war crimes/DDHH crimes or not.... [QUOTE] So I guess murderers and scumbags can cheat the system by reaching old age[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations[/url] Welcome to the law.

[QUOTE=popbob;41037787]Considering we slap wrists over soldiers in the US military for killing civilians all of the time, your post comes off as extremely hypocritical.[/QUOTE] Yeah totally man so hypocritical how mikerocks says that he thinks that those actions by the U.S. military are justified. Oh wait I don't see that anywhere in his post.

So old age and regret are not only perfect affirmative defenses but completely negate the need for indictments, grand juries, and trials? Well I sure am glad FP can predetermine guilt and innocence so we don't need those silly things like rule of law...

[QUOTE=scout1;41038736]So old age and regret are not only perfect affirmative defenses but completely negate the need for indictments, grand juries, and trials? Well I sure am glad FP can predetermine guilt and innocence so we don't need those silly things like rule of law...[/QUOTE] why should we give a shit about "rule of law" when the prosecutors don't even give a shit about it? if we lived in a world where people were prosecuted based on the actual crimes they committed then yea i could see how it would be consistent to also try this man. but we don't, so it just comes off as hypocritical when you are going after some old ass man instead of active war criminals.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;41039453]why should we give a shit about "rule of law" when the prosecutors don't even give a shit about it?[/QUOTE] So because the system is broken and corrupt... we should let a man get away with warcrimes? A killer should be punished for his crime, no matter how long ago it happened. [QUOTE]One of Karkoc's men, Vasyl Malazhenski, told Soviet investigators that in 1944 the unit was directed to "liquidate all the residents" of the village of Chlaniow in a reprisal attack for the killing of a German SS officer, though he did not say who gave the order.[/QUOTE] Hopefully he gets off on Superior orders. I'm not really sure if that applies here but I hope it does.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;41039819] Hopefully he gets off on Superior orders. I'm not really sure if that applies here but I hope it does.[/QUOTE] If he gets deported to Germany, no, he will be held responsible. The concept of "Command Authority" applies to every level of leadership, down to non-commissioned officers. The way it goes is that they [B]all[/B] have a moral imperative to countermand blatantly illegal and unethical orders such as those ordering the extermination of an entire village of civilians.

He already has the weight of his actions he committed years ago on his shoulders, I'd imagine he can't sleep at night knowing what he did to innocent people, I think that's enough punishment as we can give him

Feeling guilty about being an awful human being isn't quite the same as being legally guilty of being an awful human being. For all I care he can never set foot in prison but he should at least be given a trial.

[QUOTE=mikerocks;41037678]I don't think we should let people, even if it was a long time ago, get away with commanding soldiers to massacre innocent people.[/QUOTE] So basically what you're saying is "arrest every British, American and Canadian bomber commander from ww2" considering they outright told bombers to ignite firestorms on hundreds of thousands, if not millions of innocent people throughout the events of the war? Too little, too late. Dragging a 94 year old man into court for wartime events that happened 70 years ago is unseemly and cowardly. Just let the old bastard die, it's unlikely he has long left anyways. [editline]15th June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Lonestriper;41040223]Feeling guilty about being an awful human being isn't quite the same as being legally guilty of being an awful human being. For all I care he can never set foot in prison but he should at least be given a trial.[/QUOTE] A trial with no conviction would likely just cause a bipartisan uproar, and then the guy would die of old age anyways. Nothing would be accomplished

[QUOTE=hypno-toad;41040386] A trial with no conviction would likely just cause a bipartisan uproar, and then the guy would die of old age anyways. Nothing would be accomplished[/QUOTE] Throwing war criminals who probably won't do anything after the crime is committed is pointless but it should be done regardless of the criminals age. People need to be punished for their crimes to send a message that you can't get away with these atrocities.

this is like prosecuting a U.S. soldier ordered by some douche in iraq to kill civilians 40 years later after the incident occurred what the fuck people, leave the poor guy alone :suicide:

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;41040453]Throwing war criminals who probably won't do anything after the crime is committed is pointless but it should be done regardless of the criminals age. People need to be punished for their crimes to send a message that you can't get away with these atrocities.[/QUOTE] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Axis_personnel_indicted_for_war_crimes]I think enough people were punished for war crimes in WW2.[/url] Let's leave it at that.

Coffee that's not how the justice system works, if you commit a crime you can expect to be put on trial for that crime irrespective of how many others have faced trial for the same crime

But when the person is really old, you're not going to teach anyone a lesson. You're just going to put someone (who's probably going to die soon anyway) into a lot of needless expensive legal distress.

[QUOTE=Coffee;41040599][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Axis_personnel_indicted_for_war_crimes]I think enough people were punished for war crimes in WW2.[/url] Let's leave it at that.[/QUOTE] Me and a few dudes are gonna get together to kill you and your family, okay? We're enforcing a strict ratio though so only 80% of us are going to be prosecuted, even if we are all caught [editline]14th June 2013[/editline] I think that's prosecuting enough people, personally.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;41040453]Throwing war criminals who probably won't do anything after the crime is committed is pointless but it should be done regardless of the criminals age. People need to be punished for their crimes to send a message that you can't get away with these atrocities.[/QUOTE] Do you honestly think that this guy gave a shit about being prosecuted at the time that he perpetrated the atrocities? I think if anything he was more concerned that he could have his face shot off at any point during the war. By all rights he should have been shot down like the dog he is, but it didnt happen. It didn't happen for [I]70[/I] years. If this prosecution had happened right after to war, or even 40 years after then it would have been fine, but this shit is way, way beyond expiry date. If anything it's simply testament to how badly the atrocity prosecutions failed in their job to prosecute war criminals; the mere fact that it took 70 years to find the guy. At this point this is paramount to digging up the corpses of Nazis and putting them in court. He's a decrepit old man, his family probably hates him and he'll fade into permanent obscurity in a few years. How is that any less just than creating a gigantic, validating spectacle to punish somebody who's basically already dead?

[QUOTE=scout1;41040659]Me and a few dudes are gonna get together to kill you and your family, okay? We're enforcing a strict ratio though so only 80% of us are going to be prosecuted, even if we are all caught [editline]14th June 2013[/editline] I think that's prosecuting enough people, personally.[/QUOTE] That's not what I'm getting at. The point is that there's no point in doing anything to this person who committed war crimes a very long time ago, nothing is solved, no lives are saved, you just cause distress to an elderly person who is probably going to die soon anyway.

[QUOTE=Coffee;41040726]That's not what I'm getting at. The point is that there's no point in doing anything to this person who committed war crimes a very long time ago, nothing is solved, no lives are saved, you just cause distress to an elderly person who is probably going to die soon anyway.[/QUOTE] Terminally ill do not get to avoid a trial. They CAN be granted absence from, say, jail time, but otherwise they're to be prosecuted. Not given a blank check without regard for whether or not it's necessary without any sort of check.

[QUOTE=scout1;41040659]Me and a few dudes are gonna get together to kill you and your family, okay? We're enforcing a strict ratio though so only 80% of us are going to be prosecuted, even if we are all caught [editline]14th June 2013[/editline] I think that's prosecuting enough people, personally.[/QUOTE] as long as we are talking hypotheticals... scout if you murdered my family and i said i didn't want you prosecuted would that be ok in your books? i would be the only living victim, so shouldn't i decide whether you get prosecuted or not? [editline]15th June 2013[/editline] or should the state punish regardless of the victim's wishes?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;41049873]as long as we are talking hypotheticals... scout if you murdered my family and i said i didn't want you prosecuted would that be ok in your books? i would be the only living victim, so shouldn't i decide whether you get prosecuted or not? [editline]15th June 2013[/editline] or should the state punish regardless of the victim's wishes?[/QUOTE] You are not the victim of murder if you're alive, and no, you cannot speak for the dead

I hope he will get a big big bill for all the years he spent hiding and not paying any taxes that have gone into paying holocaust victims. I was born in the eighties and have to pay for it even though I didn't have anything to do with the war that happened 70 years ago

[QUOTE=scout1;41049985]You are not the victim of murder if you're alive, and no, you cannot speak for the dead[/QUOTE] the dead are dead. it doesn't make a lick of difference to them what you do. and yea the family member of a murder victim is a victim.