Ukranian SS Leader Accused of War Crimes found living in Minnesota - Polidicks

[QUOTE=yawmwen;41050105]the dead are dead. it doesn't make a lick of difference to them what you do. and yea the family member of a murder victim is a victim.[/QUOTE] So why do we prosecute any murderers?

also why should we punish murderers at all then. if i can't speak for the dead, then neither can you, and neither can the state. [editline]15th June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=scout1;41050109]So why do we prosecute any murderers?[/QUOTE] that's what i'm trying to ask you

[QUOTE=yawmwen;41050111]also why should we punish murderers at all then. if i can't speak for the dead, then neither can you, and neither can the state. [editline]15th June 2013[/editline] that's what i'm trying to ask you[/QUOTE] Then we'll be doing what's best for who's left alive with no regard for the dead. So let's not complain that our lawful government is doing its job.

[QUOTE=scout1;41050611]Then we'll be doing what's best for who's left alive with no regard for the dead. So let's not complain that our lawful government is doing its job.[/QUOTE] so locking an old man in a cage does some service to the living today...how? you speak of "justice" or "law" as if these were universal ideas. i don't think it's just to lock people up at all, i don't think it serves any moral or practical purpose. so how does locking up a murderer actually help society? why shouldn't a murderer be held accountable for their crimes instead of simply throwing them into some societal "refuse bin"?

I'm in favor of continuing to hunt down and bring to justice(ie execute) every last Nazi that can be found. However, I think you have to prove he was a Nazi. This serves one very good purpose, it shows the world will not allow that type of genocide to go unpunished, no matter how long it takes. If we were to let it slide because so much time has passed, that sends the entirely wrong message to genocidal dictators. That no matter what they do, if they can hide for a while it'll all blow over.

So, uh, what if the guy didn't feel any guilt for his actions? Would people still be sitting here claiming that he's been through enough? Because assuming that escaping a war-torn Europe and living to a ripe old age in the States is punishment enough because he "probably feels really bad" seems kind of silly. I'm not going to launch any crusade to see the guy prosecuted at this point, but I've got no qualms about his past being brought up and examined.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;41050677]so locking an old man in a cage does some service to the living today...how? you speak of "justice" or "law" as if these were universal ideas. i don't think it's just to lock people up at all, i don't think it serves any moral or practical purpose. so how does locking up a murderer actually help society? why shouldn't a murderer be held accountable for their crimes instead of simply throwing them into some societal "refuse bin"?[/QUOTE] Are you telling me that we should hold murderers accountable while arguing in favor of letting one go?

[QUOTE=Sinbues;41037699]What are you gonna do? Put him in prison for a couple of more years? He's 94, who knows why he never said anything, probably because he was afraid of the reaction he would get and is now in fear that people despise him without any sort of explanation.[/QUOTE] Make him apologize for his crimes infront of victims, personally. Record a public video of him telling his story and why it shouldn't happen again. What he thinks of himself as a guy who's responsible for the deaths of X people. That's a punishment for a man of this age.

[QUOTE=MoarFunz;41050873]Make him apologize for his crimes infront of victims, personally. [B]Record a public video of him telling his story and why it shouldn't happen again.[/B] What he thinks of himself as a guy who's responsible for the deaths of X people. That's a punishment for a man of this age.[/QUOTE] That's actually kind of an interesting idea. We all get taught in school about how we can never let the horrors of WWII happen again, what better education tool could their be for a younger generation than some knowledge from a man who actually lived through the period and took part? I recall in school having a couple of Holocaust survivors speak to us about their experiences during the war, it would be interesting to hear it from the other side. How someone could be led to carry out such atrocities and how we can't just assume that those horrors could never happen in modern society.

[QUOTE=MoarFunz;41050873]Make him apologize for his crimes infront of victims, personally. Record a public video of him telling his story and why it shouldn't happen again. What he thinks of himself as a guy who's responsible for the deaths of X people. That's a punishment for a man of this age.[/QUOTE] Trying to force an apology out of anyone is wrong. If he feels the need to apologize, he should do it on his own accord.

[QUOTE=scout1;41050852]Are you telling me that we should hold murderers accountable while arguing in favor of letting one go?[/QUOTE] it doesn't matter anyways because in order for a murderer to be held accountable they have to be willing. you cannot force someone to be accountable for their actions. what you are saying is that we should lock him up for some false feeling of justice or resolution. in reality, it won't actually resolve anything. it won't repair his crime. it won't restore anything to the victims. all it is is putting an old man into a tiny cage until he dies.

Establishing guilt through a trial doesn't necessarily have to result in punishment or imprisonment.

[QUOTE=Ereunity;41037731]Because if you didn't you got shot. You don't blame the person for pulling the trigger, you blame the person who the order came from when superiors were not present. People will say "They had a choice, they didn't have to pull the trigger." but they don't realise that they would have been thrown into prison, tortured, shot, etc for it.[/QUOTE] theres a large fucking difference in being like camp guard like past FP threads has been, cause those are the type that had to serve or get tortured / killed and being an actual [B]leader [/B]like this thread

[QUOTE=popbob;41037787]Considering we slap wrists over soldiers in the US military for killing civilians all of the time, your post comes off as extremely hypocritical.[/QUOTE] "all the time" please cite your source before spewing bullshit.

[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;41050779]I'm in favor of continuing to hunt down and bring to justice(ie execute) every last Nazi that can be found. However, I think you have to prove he was a Nazi. This serves one very good purpose, it shows the world will not allow that type of genocide to go unpunished, no matter how long it takes. If we were to let it slide because so much time has passed, that sends the entirely wrong message to genocidal dictators. That no matter what they do, if they can hide for a while it'll all blow over.[/QUOTE] Isn't hunting down and killing every Nazi... kind of... genocide?

Actually, quite an interesting watch would be this movie about Hannah Arendt checking out on Eichmann's trial [url]http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1674773/[/url] You should watch it, seriously. The very same problem as with this SS Leader, although never prosecuted, might explain the details why certain amount of people did atrocities they did.

[QUOTE=Ereunity;41037731]Because if you didn't you got shot. You don't blame the person for pulling the trigger, you blame the person who the order came from when superiors were not present. People will say "They had a choice, they didn't have to pull the trigger." but they don't realise that they would have been thrown into prison, tortured, shot, etc for it.[/QUOTE] So many people are ignorant to the fact that back then Wehrmacht was really fucking bonkers with disclipline. Finnish staff recorded that while the german division operating in Lapland during 1941-42, they had excecuted 10,000 of their own within a year for various reasons. Robbery, disobedience, being drunk during duty, etc. So if you're ordered to shoot bunch of villagers you either obeyed or you were lined up with the others and shot. Not much choise there, is it?

i cant imagine him being like: SS COMMANDER YOU SAY? MASSACRE INNOCENTS? FUCK YEAH SIGN ME UP im gonna guess he didnt have a choice

[QUOTE=Raiskauskone;41054793]So many people are ignorant to the fact that back then Wehrmacht was really fucking bonkers with disclipline. Finnish staff recorded that while the german division operating in Lapland during 1941-42, they had excecuted 10,000 of their own within a year for various reasons. Robbery, disobedience, being drunk during duty, etc. So if you're ordered to shoot bunch of villagers you either obeyed or you were lined up with the others and shot. Not much choise there, is it?[/QUOTE] Can you provide a source of a single confirmed instance of enlisted men or officers being shot or threatened to being shot because they did not massacre people or assist in the massacres?

[QUOTE=Monkey pie;41054955]i cant imagine him being like: SS COMMANDER YOU SAY? MASSACRE INNOCENTS? FUCK YEAH SIGN ME UP[/QUOTE] no but you can imagine him being like: NAZISM? SS COMMANDER YOU SAY? DO ANYTHING FOR THE CAUSE YOU SAY? FUCK YEAH SIGN ME UP it was a scary time

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;41055275]no but you can imagine him being like: NAZISM? SS COMMANDER YOU SAY? DO ANYTHING FOR THE CAUSE YOU SAY? FUCK YEAH SIGN ME UP it was a scary time[/QUOTE] key words: founding member Also of the Ukranians so he's collaborationist... not like there wasn't partisan units supported by the soviet state taking everyone they could.

[QUOTE=scout1;41055060]Can you provide a source of a single confirmed instance of enlisted men or officers being shot or threatened to being shot because they did not massacre people or assist in the massacres?[/QUOTE] So you're saying it never happened just because I'm not scanning the WW2 era documents conveniently stored in a wooden box on my basement that my grandfather got hold of during the Lapland war? Yeah fuck that shit

[QUOTE=Raiskauskone;41055925]So you're saying it never happened just because I'm not scanning the WW2 era documents conveniently stored in a wooden box on my basement that my grandfather got hold of during the Lapland war? Yeah fuck that shit[/QUOTE] Yes I'm saying the burden of proof is on you. It has been ascertained he committed massacres or ordered them. If you want to play an affirmative defense you have to prove there were mitigating circumstances.

[QUOTE=scout1;41056004]Yes I'm saying the burden of proof is on you. It has been ascertained he committed massacres or ordered them. If you want to play an affirmative defense you have to prove there were mitigating circumstances.[/QUOTE] Anyone who wants to commit a petty "revenge" on a dying old man because what he has done over five decades ago is a lunatic. This witch-hunt of former SS-men is retarded

[QUOTE=Raiskauskone;41056040]Anyone who wants to commit a petty "revenge" on a dying old man because what he has done over five decades ago is a lunatic. This witch-hunt of former SS-men is retarded[/QUOTE] So was he threatened or is it immoral to try him?