[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;41883188]this is a wildly arrogant and stupid statement.[/QUOTE]
It's his opinion, and with that i agree with it. You can put it more softly in the sense that minecraft.
while having tonnes of features it never really expands a whole lot in any of them, it's ideas strung together in a sandbox environment that is spread too thin and all the icing has somehow formed to make a huge tower in one direction and nowhere else has any icing.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;41883243]i actually understand game design because i dedicate myself to studying it, and critiquing everything i see and play from an objective perspective. im fully qualified to make that statement, but call that arrogant if you want (ur wrong tho)!! i also followed and played minecraft from back when it started in 09, seeing a lot of potential in the ideas that he said he would put in. none of the things he promised ever made it into minecraft, and the game shipped being largely the same game that it had been for a long time. updates came slowly and nothing substantial was ever added after it really got popular. he didn't know how to handle his own game because he is lazy and a bad game designer.[/QUOTE]
Well, if we're going to throw background knowledge around, I have a college degree in Game-Design, and am currently getting a Masters in Game Architecture and Design. My teacher's are all 20-30 year industry professionals of all sorts.
What is your definition of good game design? I'm not here to fight, I'm just interested to see what you seem to know that makes you make such strong statements of fact, rather than opinion.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;41883243]i actually understand game design because i dedicate myself to studying it, and critiquing everything i see and play from an objective perspective. im fully qualified to make that statement, but call that arrogant if you want (ur wrong tho)!! i also followed and played minecraft from back when it started in 09, seeing a lot of potential in the ideas that he said he would put in. [B]none of the things he promised ever made it into minecraft[/B], and the game shipped being largely the same game that it had been for a long time. updates came slowly and nothing substantial was ever added after it really got popular. he didn't know how to handle his own game because he is lazy and a bad game designer.[/QUOTE]
what developer are you bashing
All Notch could do was coding, anyway, it's not like he was creative.
Most of the well-known features in Minecraft were thought up by the community, and often borrowed from mods (which in turn resulted in the mess that MC is nowadays). The only exception to this I can think of is the Creeper, which sprouted from a glitch.
I'm not saying MC isn't fun because of it, but fun game =/= good game.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;41883243]i actually understand game design because i dedicate myself to studying it, and critiquing everything i see and play from an objective perspective. im fully qualified to make that statement, but call that arrogant if you want (ur wrong tho)!! i also followed and played minecraft from back when it started in 09, seeing a lot of potential in the ideas that he said he would put in. none of the things he promised ever made it into minecraft, and the game shipped being largely the same game that it had been for a long time. updates came slowly and nothing substantial was ever added after it really got popular. he didn't know how to handle his own game because he is lazy and a bad game designer.[/QUOTE]
Well you have no idea what my ideas of good and bad game design are, you're assuming and assuming you're better than me at the same time. That is literally the definition of arrogance.
[QUOTE=SweetSwifter;41883213]Well, if he indeed promised features that weren't in the actual release, then I agree, that's a very shitty thing to do.
However, I have to disagree with the statement that the game design behind it is bad. I mean, the whole goal for a game is for it to be fun. Many, many people have fun with Minecraft. If the definition for 'good game design' is not for it to be fun, then what is the definition for you?[/QUOTE]
good game design encompasses a lot of things. the mechanics of the player, the interaction of those mechanics with the world and whatever inhabits it, the interplay and strategy created by those interactions. there's far too much for me to talk about to just define good game design without getting into game theory itself.
an example of how he failed is that he promised full pathfinding and AI for enemy and neutral NPCs. this never made it into the game, ie almost every enemy can die by walking towards you into a pit. NPC villages were pointless because they didn't add anything to the game since there isn't any interaction or ai, they were just another part of the random world generation. what he did instead was steal things from mods, and add in all sorts of blocks. that's cool if you're trying to make virtual lego, but it does nothing to further the games depth and create a rich experience. the only way people enjoy minecraft is by the interactions they create with each other, and while it acts as a platform for that, it's solely player driven because the game has 0 depth.
if you're legitimately interested in game design then id recommend starting here: [url]http://critical-gaming.com/[/url]
this guy owns and explains game design from an objective point of view by using the original Super Mario Brothers to convey theory.
[QUOTE=gazzy_GUI;41883271]It's his opinion, and with that i agree with it. You can put it more softly in the sense that minecraft.
while having tonnes of features it never really expands a whole lot in any of them, it's ideas strung together in a sandbox environment that is spread too thin and all the icing has somehow formed to make a huge tower in one direction and nowhere else has any icing.[/QUOTE]
Well then there must be a book out there that says there's an objective basis for what a good game has, and there's no if's and's or butt's to it as you and doggy are saying. Sure, that's your opinion, that's fine. But i think that it's wrong.
Its a bit of a shame because the whole concept behind programming your own ship computer was pretty unique. Not to mention it has a small but very dedicated fanbase. Emulating every players ship computer server side was extremely ambitious though. Didn't he hire some ex MMO developer specifically because he didn't know what he was doing?
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;41883334]good game design encompasses a lot of things. the mechanics of the player, the interaction of those mechanics with the world and whatever inhabits it, the interplay and strategy created by those interactions. there's far too much for me to talk about to just define good game design without getting into game theory itself.
[B]an example of how he failed is that he promised full pathfinding and AI for enemy and neutral NPCs. this never made it into the game, ie almost every enemy can die by walking towards you into a pit.[/B] NPC villages were pointless because they didn't add anything to the game since there isn't any interaction or ai, they were just another part of the random world generation. what he did instead was steal things from mods, and add in all sorts of blocks. that's cool if you're trying to make virtual lego, but it does nothing to further the games depth and create a rich experience. the only way people enjoy minecraft is by the interactions they create with each other, and while it acts as a platform for that, it's solely player driven because the game has 0 depth.
if you're legitimately interested in game design then id recommend starting here: [url]http://critical-gaming.com/[/url]
this guy owns and explains game design from an objective point of view by using the original Super Mario Brothers to convey theory.[/QUOTE]
and... [I]how[/I] long ago was the last time you played Minecraft?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;41883319]Well you have no idea what my ideas of good and bad game design are, you're assuming and assuming you're better than me at the same time. That is literally the definition of arrogance.[/QUOTE]
where did i assume anything please tell
Not really a loss since there's already minecraft-like space games out there that are pretty good, off my head those being Star Made, Blockade Runner and Corneroids.
[QUOTE=Itachi_Crow;41883064]minecraft's "release" was the biggest joke[/QUOTE]
He "released" it and then passed the torch to Jeb, it's obvious he was just done with Minecraft at that point, if it wasn't for Jeb Minecraft wouldn't be seeing anymore updates.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;41883354]where did i assume anything please tell[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
just because people have fun with a piece of shit doesn't mean its not a piece of shit, it just means they don't recognize good game design
[/QUOTE]
yes, what an unassuming statement about a large amount of people.
[QUOTE=Electrocuter;41883369]He "released" it and then passed the torch to Jeb, it's obvious he was just done with Minecraft at that point, if it wasn't for Jeb Minecraft wouldn't be seeing anymore updates.[/QUOTE]
The "finished" game was 1.0, Notch passed the torch to Jeb after 1.1
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;41883381]yes, what an unassuming statement about a large amount of people.[/QUOTE]
if you think minecraft is a well designed game you are objectively wrong im sorry thats fact
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;41883401]if you think minecraft is a well designed game you are objectively wrong im sorry thats fact[/QUOTE]
Actually thats an opinion
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;41883401]if you think minecraft is a well designed game you are objectively wrong im sorry thats fact[/QUOTE]
making art doesn't qualify you to say what is and isn't good w/r/t game design, sorry but it's fact :>
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;41883401]if you think minecraft is a well designed game you are objectively wrong im sorry thats fact[/QUOTE]
hmmm
compelling
[QUOTE=popbob;41883436]making art doesn't qualify you to say what is and isn't good w/r/t game design, sorry but it's fact :>[/QUOTE]
who said anything about making art
It would be funny if notch swoops in with a lawsuit when the game is made and released at a price.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;41883401]if you think minecraft is a well designed game you are objectively wrong im sorry thats fact[/QUOTE]
I am sorry, but do you know what objective means?
[QUOTE=DICTIONARY](of a person or their judgment) Not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.[/QUOTE]
How on earth can a game be objectively bad?
ok support minecrafts design as good at all from an objective standpoint
ignoring player/player interaction why are the mechanics, interaction, etc well designed
Shame, I liked the idea and I thought people gave him too much shit about it.
Notch never really stuck to his guns. e.g. In minecraft he had a very good idea but didn't really improve on it until he hired more developers for it.
[QUOTE=gokiyono;41883463]I am sorry, but do you know what objective means?
How on earth can a game be objectively bad?[/QUOTE]
because there is a vast amount of structure and theory which define the analysis and design of games
Notch Announces Permanent Vacation.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;41883479]because there is a vast amount of structure and theory which define the analysis and design of games[/QUOTE]
And how can you be certain it's 100% accurate ? It's not an exact science, it'll always be approximative.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;41883479]because there is a vast amount of structure and theory which define the analysis and design of games[/QUOTE]
Yeah, there might be.
But when a game is played and enjoyed by millions of people, how can it be objectively bad?
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;41883479]because there is a vast amount of structure and theory which define the analysis and design of games[/QUOTE]
The only way you could objectively say a game was bad is if the game did not function. If you say the game design is bad, there may be someone who enjoys it and so the classification as "bad" is purely subjective.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;41883334]good game design encompasses a lot of things. the mechanics of the player, the interaction of those mechanics with the world and whatever inhabits it, the interplay and strategy created by those interactions. there's far too much for me to talk about to just define good game design without getting into game theory itself.[/QUOTE]
Well, to be frank, all the things you mentioned as examples can be found in Minecraft.
I think you're looking at game-design as if it's a rigid set of rules that must be followed to the absolute for any game to be classed as being well-designed. I personally don't think this is true.
I respect you for having a strong opinion and willing to voice it even in the face of mass-adversity. Especially in the 3D art thread, although the adversity isn't there, at least you give good critique generally. But in this case I think you're purely looking at rulebooks and documentation of older games and simply compare what those games had, and what Minecraft has.
I'll definitely check out critical-gaming.com. I've googled Richard Terrell, but couldn't find any games released by him. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those people that believe that 'if you judge something you have to be really good at said something'. But I do think that if he had any game releases, it'd be a good few extra points to his credibility.
And what happened to Santa vs. Cthulu?
I really liked the art style it was going for. Shame.
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