[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;49123563]All I've seen from you in the last page essentially boils down to "We shouldn't be attempting to combat ISIS". What's your solution?[/QUOTE]
I'm gonna go offtrack and say, I fucking really hate people like that in threads like this. People who are like "THIS IS BAD..AND UH EVIL...AND WE UH SHOULDN'T UH DO IT UH..."
And they never offer afterwards a better, agreeable, [b]REALISTIC[/b] solution to problems.
Civilians dying will always be a part of war, whether both sides condone it or not. It's reality.
[editline]15th November 2015[/editline]
I mean I agree, the deaths of civilians is fucking sad, but if you're not offering a good solution to this problem, then all you're doing is sitting and bitching about it.
[QUOTE=TheHydra;49123545]it also lead to decades of fear and a world of sovereign states with apocalyptic capabilities.
these things have consequences. i know it's satisfying to see the bad guys get hurt in retaliation, but we have no idea how effective these actions will turn out to be and if this wasn't planned for from the start when they coordinated these attacks.[/QUOTE]It also, even in bringing us to the brink, may have prevented our own destruction. What is the one thing that, above all else, stopped The West and the East from going in to direct war with each other? The ever looming threat that one wrong move could mean the end of it all. So maybe the decades of fear and the threat of total annihilation was the better alternative.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;49123556]
It won't be once and for all. they'll rise up or splinter. If we do kill every last ISIS/radical islamist/west unfriendly militant then from the rubble of bombed cities will rise the children of murdered parents who will rightfully see us as the assholes who killed their parents. Bombs aren't going to delete extremism, if anything they are the cause or at least an agent to help it propagate.
[/QUOTE]
If my country contained a terrorist group trying to pick a fight with the entire planet who would I have to blame when half of the world responds by attacking my country's cities? You'd have to be incredibly short-sighted to look past ISIS' atrocities and lay all the blame for the destruction on the West.
[QUOTE=Richardroth;49123472]War sucks and it is never a good thing when innocents are caught up in it, but these guys aren't the type to sit down and have peace talks over tea and biscuits, they're blood thirsty maniacs who want to kill everyone who isn't them, or shares their ideals. It sucks, but you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.[/QUOTE]
I mean, that only works if you actually know with fairly high accuracy and that recipe's gonna eventually lead to an omelet and not giving Daesh another bullet point to list in their "us vs them" campaigns.
Honestly, I don't think anyone knows what the right solution is to this mess, there doesn't seem to be any single solution with significant impact on the horizon. Everything that adds fuel to the fire just seems to enable Daesh to use more muslims for their own purposes, but they don't seem to be running out of steam on their own accord any time soon either. And even if people managed to bomb into oblivion every single ISIS member and supporter (which are sometimes just completely desperate people that don't care about politics at all), it would probably lead to enough people hungry on revenge to create the next iteration of the same problem... until people find a better cause to join that could solve their problems I guess, tho all the bridges seem to be burning right now.
So I'm not really seeing enough of a theoretical or practical success story for war under these circumstances that would make it a worthwhile solution. We're not dealing with a country and an army after all. It's international, spread-out terrorists with a completely different kind of warfare.
Until someone's come up with some grandiose masterplan or the situation changes enough to be reevaluated, I'd rather not take a "maybe we just need to bomb harder" gamble that, unlike more precise operations, wouldn't try as hard to avoid civilian casualties. It's pretty clear by this point that Daesh doesn't give a shit about muslims or Westeners. The conflict is just a means to an end so they can grab more power.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;49123385]You're presenting a flase diachatomy.
You're framing it like there are only 2 options.
Bombing + war
or
"cover our ears and pretend nothing will happen"
We have other options.
Explore other ways of break ISIS down, maybe make it splinter, [b]support a nearby regime to stabilise the region,[/b] maybe improve intelligence or how it was acted on. The 911 terrorists, michael adebolajo and the charlie hebdo assholes were all known to intelligence, intelligence acted too late though. Maybe tackle what is causing extremism in the first place, bombing the fuck outta cities isn't going to stop people wanting to become extremists.[/QUOTE]
This is a terrible idea. It sounds good on paper, but we've tried that before, some were successful for a little while, but things turned to pot eventually.
Aren't the current borders made back in WWI to help british and french imperialism control spheres of influence?
Bomb ISIS to death and break down all the borders and make new states based on the tribal lines like it should've been. Keep all the different ethnic groups separated.
It won't be easy, and it will take a long time. But it could be worth the wait and patience to stabilize the region.
"Retaliation" is such an ugly word. Because there can be retaliation to the retaliation and the cycle never ends.
I wish there was a way we could all live peacefully... But there isn't..
[QUOTE=Buck.;49123823]"Retaliation" is such an ugly word. Because there can be retaliation to the retaliation and the cycle never ends.
I wish there was a way we could all live peacefully... But there isn't..[/QUOTE]
The middle east has been a major fucking pain in the dick lately for every other region on earth and they really need to get their shit together
[QUOTE=FunnyStarRunner;49122991]Lemme guess: the sensible thing to do was to not interfere with the masterminds behind the massacre and let them think they won.
I don't see anything wrong with that.[/QUOTE]
violence begets violence, thats all im going to say on the matter
[QUOTE=bisousbisous;49123876]violence begets violence, thats all im going to say on the matter[/QUOTE]
And yet the west have the means to cripple ISIS' capability of carrying out violence, using violence. How else is that outcome possible?
[QUOTE=gastyne;49122990]Literally everyone hated nazis besides nazis and WW2 happened anyway.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;49123040]Italy? Japan? Romania? Bulgaria? Hungary? Croatia? Thailand?
Are you ignorant of history?[/QUOTE]
Was about to say this myself, how the fuck do you not know that the nazis had allies :v:
[sp]also there's a lot more even than you list, not to mention initially Russia[/sp]
It's reassuring knowing how many foreign policy experts there are on Facepunch.
[QUOTE=LoganIsAwesome;49123925]It's reassuring knowing how many foreign policy experts there are on Facepunch.[/QUOTE]
I think when it comes to politics most people on facepunch probably just parrot what they've heard elsewhere that they more or less agree with
I don't really condone war, killing, or inflicting death of any kind, but in the case of ISIS...
Fucking annihilate them, France.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;49123556]You base this on the incorrect assumption that you will be "ridding the middle east of this plague once and for all"
It won't be once and for all. they'll rise up or splinter. If we do kill every last ISIS/radical islamist/west unfriendly militant then from the rubble of bombed cities will rise the children of murdered parents who will rightfully see us as the assholes who killed their parents. Bombs aren't going to delete extremism, if anything they are the cause or at least an agent to help it propagate.
"if the only tool you have is a hammer then every problem starts to look like a nail"[/QUOTE]
which is why I said there is no clean solution. half measures do nothing in that part of the world. a full on assault on islamic extremism is the only thing that'll prevent things like the attack on paris from continuing to happen with increased frequency.
it's a moot point to say that extremism would rise again after being completely purged from the middle east. your assumption is based on the pretense that we would leave the people of the middle east with a pile of rubble and say "there you go, you're welcome." if allied forces were to succeed in eradicating islamic extremism there's no chance that they would just leave the middle east to fend for itself. World War II taught our world leaders never to do that again.
[editline]15th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;49123567]How can you criticize them for it then in the same breath approve its use against them?[/QUOTE]
there's a difference between approving of something and understanding that it's the only option you have.
Oorah France, kill those fuckers!
Though, I am slightly worried about Russia's involvement in Syria, even if the US and RU made peace with each other for now.
And honestly, with France now in the fray, IS is dead.
[QUOTE=gastyne;49122752]Do we know how many terrorists were killed by this bombing and how many were innocent civilians?[/QUOTE]
Who gives a shit
Warheads on foreheads rah
[QUOTE=bisousbisous;49123876]violence begets violence, thats all im going to say on the matter[/QUOTE]
Yes. They gave us violence, and so they will have violence done unto them.
[QUOTE=Megadave;49122921]This is a great idea, and then when they ask for no sugar, we put sugar in it. That outta show them.[/QUOTE]
*cyanide
Why does Raqqa even exist? Can't we just level the city?
[QUOTE=proboardslol;49124320]Why does Raqqa even exist? Can't we just level the city?[/QUOTE]
Do non-ISIS supporting civvies even live there? If not, bomb them to hell.
[QUOTE=bisousbisous;49123876]violence begets violence, thats all im going to say on the matter[/QUOTE]
gee, so original and ~artistic~
everyone who says this and leaves it at that are the biggest cop outs
Just paranoid we're somehow gonna trigger WW3.
Turn Raqqa into Dresden circa 1945
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;49124342]Do non-ISIS supporting civvies even live there? If not, bomb them to hell.[/QUOTE]
How would you like to live in a city run by genocidal militants, forced to abide by their rules or face gruesome death, with little means of escape due to the civil war in the regions around you, and then have it all bombed to hell?
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;49124342]Do non-ISIS supporting civvies even live there? If not, bomb them to hell.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately if we did level the city, we'd only be creating more hate towards America. The strategy did work very well in Korea, however
[QUOTE=UnknownDude;49124488]How would you like to live in a city run by genocidal militants, forced to abide by their rules or face gruesome death, with little means of escape due to the civil war in the regions around you, and then have it all bombed to hell?[/QUOTE]
Fuck it, being bombed to hell sounds like better than being stuck there
not to say it should happen but it's a better fate
WW3 isn't going to erupt from this, right? I live with a lot of fear-mongering right-wing extremists, and my mind is going crazy right now due to it.
[QUOTE=X_Sam;49124513]WW3 isn't going to erupt from this, right? I live with a lot of fear-mongering right-wing extremists, and my mind is going crazy right now due to it.[/QUOTE]
no
[IMG]http://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2015_46/1303716/151115-obama-putin-g20-talk-322p_738e7ac1ac818a5df9fbd3fcad39a2b1.nbcnews-ux-600-700.jpg[/IMG]
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
