• Photos published of alleged U.S. atrocities in Afghanistan
    246 replies, posted
[QUOTE=booster;28763911]You guys should really put some sort of "Qualifications" on your army, and not send in every redneck dumbfuck who can shoot a gun.[/QUOTE] We do. Stop being ignorant.
Soldiers are trained and drilled. They know what they can and can't do. But there's no way to watch every move of what they do in the field.
[QUOTE=sami-elite;28763943]Soldiers are trained and drilled. They know what they can and can't do. But there's no way to watch every move of what they do in the field.[/QUOTE] isn't it funny how you never have this problem in data entry or advertising and i mean we don't even tell them not to kill people
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28763969]isn't it funny how you never have this problem in data entry or advertising and i mean we don't even tell them not to kill people[/QUOTE] Isn't it funny how lower class citizens join the army to pay for college so they can get a job in data entry or advertising? And I mean, they don't even want to kill people.
This is really unprofessional and I'm in the USAF so I'm not just some fuck complaining about the military. The only way I see it is that they're making light of a bad situation. No, killing is not fun. But theses guys aren't just heartless killers either. If they make light of it, make a joke out of it.. it takes away from the fact they just took a life. If you're busy going "yeah I got one!" you don't think about the friends you've lost, and the people you've killed yourself. Of course, this is still unprofessional. But it's like the gunners behind C-130s and such.. There were stories of them treating it like a video game. Why? It separates them from reality and that's how they cope. I'm never going to blindly ignore what people do. It's fucked up, but not all of us are like that. Many of us are not like that and that's why I will try to defend myself. I've been told I murder people, I've been called a killer.. I've never even be overseas. Hell I don't even have a combat related job. I'm a god damn maintainer and it pisses me off when stupid civilian fucks decide they know everything and condemn us all just because we serve our country. Not to mention the stupid comments I see like "yeah and we have soldiers murdering people in Libya" when no forces are even there beyond aircraft. Half of the people would rather focus on the fucked up soldiers who do dumb shit then care about the pilots of the F-15E who could've lost their lives or the ones who've given theirs in this war. I don't care if you support the war, or our government, or the way things are done.. but we're just pawns in this fucking war. We do what we're told and that's how we get paid. I'm sorry for the civilians who've died, any innocent people who've died.. but it's unchangeable. If I had enough rank I'd walk up to the general and ask him what the hell he thinks sometimes, but I can't now can I? Because I have 2 fucking stripes. That's why I can't. Yet I'll take the blame while I'm grouped in with "The military". Why don't you fucking enlist and you'll see how it works. If you can do it better, do it better. Half of you just really don't understand. You really, really don't.
[QUOTE=JeffAndersen;28764037] I don't care if you support the war, or our government, or the way things are done.. but we're just pawns in this fucking war.[/QUOTE] If you hate it so much, why did you join while the war was ongoing? You have no excuse for that, you knew exactly what would happen and where you would be going. Don't act like you're some helpless little thing. The earliest you could have joined up was four years ago. Four years ago, there were no signs of either war stopping for the foreseeable term of your service, and even if you joined this year, you know that neither war will end very long before your contract has expired.
[QUOTE=Kagrenak;28764091]If you hate it so much, why did you join while the war was ongoing? You have no excuse for that, you knew exactly what would happen and where you would be going.[/QUOTE] That is such a naive opinion to have.
[QUOTE=Ultra Violence;28764105]That is such a naive opinion to have.[/QUOTE] Your post means nothing without reasoning behind it. In what way is that naive? He joined an organization whose primary goals are supposedly ones he loathes. That's his own fault, and acting like he's somehow helpless because he's forced to now help them further those goals is disingenuous at best.
"I'm in the USAF so I'm not just some fuck" "stupid civilian fucks" "Half of you just really don't understand. You really, really don't." You know maybe we wouldn't have such a hostile attitude towards the military if your response to "your whole job is one huge moral dilemma that you have chosen to ignore for monetary and emotional gain" wasn't "civvies don't get it man you just can't understand". You've taken a job, the point of which is to facilitate the deaths of the enemies of your superiors. Regardless of what this means in a moral or political sense, that is the reality of the situation. Regardless of whether or not this somehow 'makes you accomplice to murder'(which I disagree with, mostly), that's the situation you're in. Trying to avoid the issue by being indignant and making the military out to be some sort of plane of consciousness above that of the lower classes makes me want to call you a murderer just to piss you off.
[QUOTE=Kagrenak;28764110]Your post means nothing without reasoning behind it.[/QUOTE] Well, I was going to wait for the airforce guy to explain your idiocy. Anyway, people join military services for a lot of reasons. Running from problems, sense of duty to the country, lack of funds to pay for higher education, family tradition, unique training and experiences, the list pretty much goes on forever. You may as well ask why someone gets up in the morning. Apparently you missed the part where the guy said he hasn't seen combat, though. If all you do is stay in American-side bases and repair planes, you don't have much to worry about. And just because he repairs planes doesn't mean he's an instrument of civilian death--he's just a fucking guy trying to make a living. Throw in the fact that recruitment begins in high school, directed at children 15-17 years old who are desperate for a 3rd option--you know, the one that isn't college and isn't fast food. Class stratification leaves little option in our society.
[QUOTE=Ultra Violence;28764143]Well, I was going to wait for the airforce guy to explain your idiocy. Anyway, people join military services for a lot of reasons. Running from problems, sense of duty to the country, lack of funds to pay for higher education, family tradition, unique training and experiences, the list pretty much goes on forever. You may as well ask why someone gets up in the morning. Apparently you missed the part where the guy said he hasn't seen combat, though. If all you do is stay in American-side bases and repair planes, you don't have much to worry about. And just because he repairs planes doesn't mean he's an instrument of civilian death--he's just a fucking guy trying to make a living. Throw in the fact that recruitment begins in high school, directed at children 15-17 years old who are desperate for a 3rd option--you know, the one that isn't college and isn't fast food. Class stratification leaves little option in our society.[/QUOTE] So what? I don't care why they joined the military. Either you understand the situation you are in and don't care or you don't understand the situation you're in and are ignorant. Intent might matter when discussing guilt, but that's a different discussion.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28764195]So what? I don't care why they joined the military. Either you understand the situation you are in and don't care or you don't understand the situation you're in and are ignorant. Intent might matter when discussing guilt, but that's a different discussion.[/QUOTE] Maybe you don't care, but the guy I was talking to asked specifically that question. So I quit reading after "I don't care why they joined the military," because something about context is tripping you up.
[QUOTE=Ultra Violence;28764143] Throw in the fact that recruitment begins in high school, directed at children 15-17 years old who are desperate for a 3rd option--you know, the one that isn't college and isn't fast food. Class stratification leaves little option in our society.[/QUOTE] I don't mean to blame him for his hard decision, surely not. I mean to blame him for acting like being involved in the middle eastern conflicts is something that he had no part in choosing. I sympathize with him that he might not have had any option. On a related note to that, what does he mean by two bars? Is he a captain at 20, or does he just mean two chevrons? If he means the former, he damn well had other options and is completely at fault here. If the former, like I said, I don't blame him for the original choice, just the fact that he makes it into something it wasn't. [quote=Ultra Violence] Anyway, people join military services for a lot of reasons. Running from problems, sense of duty to the country, lack of funds to pay for higher education, family tradition, unique training and experiences, the list pretty much goes on forever. You may as well ask why someone gets up in the morning. [/quote] This is all irrelevant. You wouldn't join some private organization that has a lot of interesting experiences if they also went out and murdered people. The unique experiences could most likely be found elsewhere, with less killing. Again, like I said in my prior paragraph, I understand the appeal and I understand the fact that he may have had limited options. What I don't understand is why he makes it out to be some sort of moral ambiguity after the fact. [b]Edit:[/b] Oh, he said two stripes, so he's E-3. Don't mind that point, then.
[QUOTE=Ultra Violence;28764204]Maybe you don't care, but the guy I was talking to asked specifically that question. So I quit reading after "I don't care why they joined the military," because something about context is tripping you up.[/QUOTE] Perhaps you should continue reading. Because the point is that their personal guilt is a complicated issue, but the fact that they are either ignorant or apathetic isn't. The next discussion is, is being apathetic justified?
[QUOTE=Kagrenak;28764219]I don't mean to blame him for his hard decision, surely not. I mean to blame him for acting like being involved in the middle eastern conflicts is something that he had no part in choosing. I sympathize with him that he might not have had any option. On a related note to that, what does he mean by two bars? Is he a captain at 20, or does he just mean two chevrons? If he means the former, he damn well had other options and is completely at fault here. If the former, like I said, I don't blame him for the original choice, just the fact that he makes it into something it wasn't. This is all irrelevant. You wouldn't join some private organization that has a lot of interesting experiences if they also went out and murdered people. The unique experiences could most likely be found elsewhere, with less killing. Again, like I said in my prior paragraph, I understand the appeal and I understand the fact that he may have had limited options. What I don't understand is why he makes it out to be some sort of moral ambiguity after the fact.[/QUOTE] I didn't see any part where he said he had no choice. However, I did read where he said that he can't change the orders of a General. Two completely different things. Also, how is it irrelevant? You asked why people join the military. That is why. As for finding unique experiences elsewhere, that usually requires money. But I'm glad you picked ONE option out of five examples I gave, and somehow that made them all irrelevant because you decided you could dig a hole around one of them.
One question I have to ask is, if you are working in a company which you know for a fact is committing fraud, is it moral to continue working as normal in your position? Assuming you have nothing to do with the fraud, is it alright to ignore it?
[QUOTE=Ultra Violence;28764251] Also, how is it irrelevant? You asked why people join the military. That is why. As for finding unique experiences elsewhere, that usually requires money. But I'm glad you picked ONE option out of five examples I gave, and somehow that made them all irrelevant because you decided you could dig a hole around one of them.[/QUOTE] Okay, you can run from problems by joining the peace corps or other international volunteer work. Family tradition is largely on the decline and shouldn't be a reason to join an organization that kills for a living if you don't agree with it. The lack of funds is a viable one, I will admit, but there are other ways around that which don't involve helping kill people. A sense of duty to the country should also be a driving force in [i]not joining[/i] the military of a country when it is involved in an unjust war.
[QUOTE=Ultra Violence;28764251]Also, how is it irrelevant? You asked why people join the military. That is why. As for finding unique experiences elsewhere, that usually requires money. But I'm glad you picked ONE option out of five examples I gave, and somehow that made them all irrelevant because you decided you could dig a hole around one of them.[/QUOTE] All of them have to do with personal gain so I don't see how they factor into the idea of the morality of complacency.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28764274]One question I have to ask is, if you are working in a company which you know for a fact is committing fraud, is it moral to continue working as normal in your position? Assuming you have nothing to do with the fraud, is it alright to ignore it?[/QUOTE] It depends on what you mean and if you had evidence of it. This also isn't very analogous, it would be similar to applying for a job at a company you know to be producing unsafe products, and then assisting them in it. The example you provided is more of an analogy to a career soldier who stuck through the Iraq and Afghan wars.
[QUOTE=Kagrenak;28764286]Okay, you can run from problems by joining the peace corps or other international volunteer work. Family tradition is largely on the decline and shouldn't be a reason to join an organization that kills for a living if you don't agree with it. The lack of funds is a viable one, I will admit, but there are other ways around that which don't involve helping kill people. A sense of duty to the country should also be a driving force in [i]not joining[/i] the military of a country when it is involved in an unjust war.[/QUOTE] Most people who join the military do not end up killing anyone, or even directly aiding in the process. A large portion are medics, engineers, mechanics, and other people charged with the duty of saving lives rather than taking them.
[QUOTE=Kagrenak;28764301]It depends on what you mean and if you had evidence of it. This also isn't very analogous, it would be similar to applying for a job at a company you know to be producing unsafe products, and then assisting them in it. The example you provided is more of an analogy to a career soldier who stuck through the Iraq and Afghan wars.[/QUOTE] The point isn't whether you could prove it, the point is it moral to work at a job that enables morally reprehensible activity solely because you either A. Aren't specifically involved in the activity, or B. Have some certain perk from working.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28764321]The point isn't whether you could prove it, the point is it moral to work at a job that enables morally reprehensible activity solely because you either A. Aren't specifically involved in the activity, or B. Have some certain perk from working.[/QUOTE] This is true, yes. I was more critiquing the analogy you came up with, rather than your conclusion. [editline]23rd March 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Ultra Violence;28764302]Most people who join the military do not end up killing anyone, or even directly aiding in the process. A large portion are medics, engineers, mechanics, and other people charged with the duty of saving lives rather than taking them.[/QUOTE] The only group you listed that has nothing to do with taking lives are the medics. Plus, you don't get to choose your MOS, so.
"Here is better than home, eh, sir? I mean, at home if you kill someone they arrest you, here they'll give you a gun and show you what to do, sir. I mean, I killed fifteen of those buggers. Now, at home they'd hang me, here they'll give me a fucking medal, sir."
[QUOTE=Kagrenak;28764110]Your post means nothing without reasoning behind it. In what way is that naive? He joined an organization whose primary goals are supposedly ones he loathes. That's his own fault, and acting like he's somehow helpless because he's forced to now help them further those goals is disingenuous at best.[/QUOTE] I never said I was helpless, but I'm blamed for shit I've never done. That's what's stupid. I joined an avionics job for family purposes. I'm going to get my degree(s) in avionics and electrical engineering, hopefully serve 20 and do what I possibly can to set things right. I make 750 dollars every two weeks, whether I work 16 hours a day or 8 hours a day, I work night shift day shift whatever shift. I'm also more or less a peon (although there are newer peons so I'm a step up) and I'm alright with that. What I'm not alright with, is people blaming me for shit I didn't do. I didn't tell the US army guy to go pose with a camera like a fucking moron. Do I loathe killing? No. Sometimes it's necessary. Do I enjoy the innocent killing of civilians? Of course I fucking don't. You try to pin both ends of the spectrum on me. I've read many articles about how this helicopter did this, and this group of soldiers did this. I would try to fix every issue I could but as you've read and understood, my two stripes don't mean much. I in no way want pity or whatever you think I'm going with by me saying this isn't my fault. I know what I got myself into, but what other people need to understand is is that we're not all heartless, we're not all murderers, we didn't join to kill people, we're not trigger happy fucks who wanna "shoot some hajjis" or some shit. I don't even find those jokes funny and WILL jump on anyone who says something stupid like that. I guess I posted out of the frustration that people in our military can be immature, and no matter what I get grouped up with them (Like the whole Americans are fat, stupid, etc). It gets old. I'm a 20 year old guy trying to make a living and set up a future. I just want a family and kids and a place to live. No more no less. I just can't help but try to defend our military's name when something stupid like this happens. That's all. There is a lot of good things we do, whether it be volunteer work here in the states or helping with places like Japan right now. That seems to never get into the media though because it's not negative. I'm just frustrated with all of this. That's all. [editline]23rd March 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28764132]Trying to avoid the issue by being indignant and making the military out to be some sort of plane of consciousness above that of the lower classes makes me want to call you a murderer just to piss you off.[/QUOTE] Do I think because I'm military I'm on a higher plane of consciousness? No, but if you're gonna come to me and tell me what I am doing is wrong without understanding the situation me and the other people who serve are in I'm sure as hell gonna defend myself. It's like civilians who've never served a day in their life coming up to be and telling me why I suck cause I'm in the Air Force and not the Marines. It's one thing for members of other branches to talk shit.. that's just rivalry. But they just want to start shit with us and that's what's dumb.
[img]http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-194584-galleryV9-ghyz.jpg[/img] I would murder this man.
The media only ever show us the bad things that are happening anyway, I'm pretty sure there are some soldiers doing an amazing job that just don't get the attention from the media.
[QUOTE=Nightsure;28765457]The media only ever show us the bad things that are happening anyway, I'm pretty sure there are some soldiers doing an amazing job that just don't get the attention from the media.[/QUOTE] The ones that do something amazing get a bit of media attention. Anything bad is instantly in the media. But the normal guys out there doing a great job day in day out get nothing.
On the other hand are the US troops actually increasing stability? There will always come up atrocities like this and the civilians will suffer in the middle of fighting NATO, afghani and rebel troops. The young men there will get even more pissed at those (from their point of view) white assholes who come here to murder my fucking family and take over my home country. These people will probably join the rebels and the cycle continues.
[QUOTE=Stany01;28763605]The patriotic right wingers come out to disagree.[/QUOTE] Well aren't you just the most clever, intelligent person to grace this fine forum. The amount of people who are fucked up compared to the amount of people doing their job properly is so small that, in any other study, it could barely be considered a margin of error. If you're going to come in here and say shit like that, then back it up.
your army is not fit for purpose.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.