[QUOTE=Ybbats;37126309]Criminal offense usually goes with jail time, you think they should start throwing pirates in jail? Because that's what you're saying should happen, and that's completely insane.[/QUOTE]
They put shoplifters in jail. Only difference is that shoplifters are more ballsy, and possibly more foolish. I am a pirate, so i am obviously not against pirating, but to say that them serving jail time is insane isn't logical. Unless you think shoplifters should not have jail time
[QUOTE=Master Queef;37126479]They put shoplifters in jail. Only difference is that shoplifters are more ballsy, and possibly more foolish. I am a pirate, so i am obviously not against pirating, but to say that them serving jail time is insane isn't logical. Unless you think shoplifters should not have jail time[/QUOTE]
Shoplifters steal a physical item that needs to be replaced, pirates just take a copy of data that is infinite in supply. There is a difference.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;37127245]Shoplifters steal a physical item that needs to be replaced, pirates just take a copy of data that is infinite in supply. There is a difference.[/QUOTE]
Lemme restate this again:
[quote]Also, people who say pirating is okay because it's not a loss in sales are retarded. It's an expensive process to make games and movies and other such things. You have to pay employees their hourly wages so they have the motivation to do what they do, actors/musicians/other performers take up a big chunk of the budget, and you need to spend money making sure your software AND hardware are up to date. That's how the companies lose money. By buying the product you are giving them enough money to at least break even, and hopefully make a profit, so they have the motivation to make similar products. By pirating you are denying them the chance to make back that money, and if too many people pirate the company can't make a profit and some companies may end up going bankrupt, which will cost the loss of thousands of jobs. THAT IS WHY PIRATING IS BAD. It's not just "hey, it's just data, data costs nothing, they're not losing any money". Anyone who says that has no idea how making stuff works. That data didn't just magically come into existence at no cost. People spent millions of dollars coding and perfecting and performing and building and all that other stuff that goes into making a movie/game/album/whatever.[/quote]
I shouldn't even have had to do this since this is only a few posts up, but here we are.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;37127245]Shoplifters steal a physical item that needs to be replaced, pirates just take a copy of data that is infinite in supply. There is a difference.[/QUOTE]
That is a good point. But you are still preventing the manufacturer/creator/etc from getting money from the distribution of said product, which is usually the main purpose of it being on the market. I think it is equal in terms of morality, but it really is one of those subjects that is entirely opinion, so I guess my previous post should just be ignored.
Edit: ninja'd
[QUOTE=Master Queef;37126479]They put shoplifters in jail. Only difference is that shoplifters are more ballsy, and possibly more foolish. I am a pirate, so i am obviously not against pirating, but to say that them serving jail time is insane isn't logical. Unless you think shoplifters should not have jail time[/QUOTE]
But shoplifters take something physical, while pirates take a copy, do you think you should be arrested for borrowing a movie from a friend to watch at your own home? The crime isn't the same, the least that should happen is the pirate has to pay for the items he/she downloaded plus any expenses that the corporation had bringing that pirate to court.
I should point out I'm defending piracy even though I don't really support it but I'm not completely against it either, if you have any doubts you can have a look at my Steam account as an example, I like to buy my stuff, and 90% of the games I own are from Steam because it's a great service and even though it is a kind of DRM it isn't intrusive at all and the pros are way more than the cons.
People saying that you are taking money from the corporations when you download something illegaly are not completely right, because as I pointed out before those who pirate it don't do it because they are addicted to pirating, they do it because of two reasons I pointed out before (try before buy or download because they have no money to buy it), sure neither of them are a valid excuse BUT and I shall point it out again, if you try before buy and like it you'll buy it anyway, if you don't then you would have found another way to try it (play at a friends house, etc) and if you didn't enjoy it there then you're not going to buy it either, the same applies to those who download because they have no money, if they have no money they weren't going to buy it at all so no sale is lost, on the other hand some of those people do get the money later and still buy it because they enjoyed it so much.
My point being: piracy is bad but it doesn't cause loss of profits because every pirate is a potential client but they only pirate for 2 reasons, both of which can end up with the pirate buying the item if they enjoy it and/or have the money or not buy it at all.
You can argue that trying before buying is a loss of profit because otherwise people would buy it (in the absolute case where they can't find it anywhere else to try) and you might be right, but nobody likes to get fucked over and pay for a chicken and only get the bones as it happens with most products nowadays, if companies start making good products they will get to a point where popularity alone will be a reason to buy their products without even having to look at them, if you told me Valve was going to release a surprise game tomorrow I'd buy it without even knowing anything about it because I've had fun with all their games, on the other hand if you told me EA was about to do the same I'd flip them the bird and wait to try it at a friends place (even if that friend himself pirated it).
There's also the issue with certain "items" only being available in certain countries and take years to get officially sold somewhere else, some people are not willing to wait 2-4 years to get a japanese anime DVD with 10 episodes or pay more for shipping than for the product itself.
[QUOTE=Strongbad;37107156]What part of "The US Didn't actually have anything to do with this" did YOU miss? What turnip truck did you fall off of? You're condemning the entire USA for something a few people are doing, and over an issue they had no direct involvement in. This was mostly the Ukrainian government's decision.[/QUOTE]
I think when people say "the US" they mean the dipshits who keep pushing anti-piracy crap...
And as if anyone else really gave a fuck about piracy...
[editline]7th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=elevator13;37107235]vote with your wallet and don't buy the product
and don't pirate because then you're just stealing[/QUOTE]
Then I wont buy anything ever because it isn't worth wasting 40$ on something that I might not even watch again.
Truth is, prices are complete bollocks.
[QUOTE=Xenomoose;37127290]Lemme restate this again:
I shouldn't even have had to do this since this is only a few posts up, but here we are.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but the difference is that most pirates wouldn't have bought the product in the first place if they couldn't have gotten it for free, thus no sales are lost.
[editline]7th August 2012[/editline]
Maybe game developers should start making games that are worth the money
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;37128990]Yeah but the difference is that most pirates wouldn't have bought the product in the first place if they couldn't have gotten it for free, thus no sales are lost.[/QUOTE]
And no sales are being made, either. That's my point.
[QUOTE=Xenomoose;37129109]And no sales are being made, either. That's my point.[/QUOTE]
But the sales also wouldn't have happened even if piracy didn't exist
[QUOTE=Xenomoose;37127290]Lemme restate this again:
I shouldn't even have had to do this since this is only a few posts up, but here we are.[/QUOTE]
There is still no loss, the company doesn't pay to have their product digitally distributed, with the exception of bandwidth and service providing and such. It isn't as much stealing as it is denying a product maker their money for their product.
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;37129125]But the sales also wouldn't have happened even if piracy didn't exist[/QUOTE]
I think that's highly debatable. Some people might shell out money for games they never tried out and ended up regretting it. That's why I'm probably the only person who paid full price for Postal III. :v:
... I loved Postal II, I thought it was justified... :(
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;37129263]There is still no loss, the company doesn't pay to have their product digitally distributed, with the exception of bandwidth and service providing and such. It isn't as much stealing as it is denying a product maker their money for their product.[/QUOTE]
That's what I'm trying to say. I'm also trying to say that if too many people deny the product maker their money, it could result in no profits being made, and in a worst case scenario said company could go bankrupt.
[QUOTE=Legend286;37124657]You're kidding right? Steam as a DRM is pathetic, and it's not intrusive at all so who cares.[/QUOTE]
Not intrusive at all, not even when your credit card charges back, locking you out of all of your games.
yep.
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;37128990]
Maybe game developers should start making games that are worth the money[/QUOTE]
how dare they take away [b]MY RIGHT[/b] to play games, watch movies, and listen to music free of charge!
Shit guys! Our right to pirate is being violated again, we gotta fight this! Oh wait, we never had that right, we all just feel entitled to free shit and justify it with argument x,y or z.
[QUOTE=dass;37127928]I think when people say "the US" they mean the dipshits who keep pushing anti-piracy crap...
And as if anyone else really gave a fuck about piracy...
[editline]7th August 2012[/editline]
Then I wont buy anything ever because it isn't worth wasting 40$ on something that I might not even watch again.
Truth is, prices are complete bollocks.[/QUOTE]
The wikileaks diplomatic cables recently released this week are starting to show that the US often manipulates, pressures and intimidates the court systems of other countries (Spain for example) on a regular basis, into accepting OUR views of how copyright laws "are supposed to work". I find this funny because, like Demonoid, Wikileaks has been under constant DDoS attack for the past week, what glorious timing.
[editline]7th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=No_Excuses;37132424]Shit guys! Our right to pirate is being violated again, we gotta fight this! Oh wait, we never had that right, we all just feel entitled to free shit and justify it with argument x,y or z.[/QUOTE]
Its about more than just "stupid hippies getting free shit", it's about censorship of the internet as well as whether or not we should bow down to companies and let them have free reign over our legal system and just be their subservient followers. They spend more money on lawyers than they EVER lost from sales because of piracy, and the more they spend on them the more they are pushed into fighting for control over stopping it (which can only happen through draconian police-state enforcement and censorship of the internet, so yes, even if you're not a pirate, this DOES concern you).
[QUOTE=Xenomoose;37129352]I think that's highly debatable. Some people might shell out money for games they never tried out and ended up regretting it. That's why I'm probably the only person who paid full price for Postal III. :v:
... I loved Postal II, I thought it was justified... :(
That's what I'm trying to say. I'm also trying to say that if too many people deny the product maker their money, it could result in no profits being made, and in a worst case scenario said company could go bankrupt.[/QUOTE]
Except a much higher proportion of pirated copies come off of companies which can stay afloat easily, I've not seen one company go bankrupt or get disbanded due to piracy. (You could point one out to me, I don't know much about independent developers so you could have a pretty valid argument.)
[editline]8th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Dori;37130486]how dare they take away [b]MY RIGHT[/b] to play games, watch movies, and listen to music free of charge![/QUOTE]
It's less about the morals behind piracy, which I was stupidly arguing about earlier, as it is the legality and unfairness, as well as the bad tactics used in combating it.
[editline]8th August 2012[/editline]
Even if piracy is wrong, the only effectual ways to combat it are wrong-er. And there is still the debate of whether piracy is harmful to most companies in the first place.
This does not bode well for the internet.
Sorry people outside the USA, this country I'm sitting in is too crazy
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;37133272]Except a much higher proportion of pirated copies come off of companies which can stay afloat easily, I've not seen one company go bankrupt or get disbanded due to piracy. (You could point one out to me, I don't know much about independent developers so you could have a pretty valid argument.)
[/QUOTE]
So it's okay to break the law if the people most hurt are still doing alright? Companies are hurt by piracy in a bigger way than is obvious; a shift of perception that companies should work hard for my money as opposed to paying for hard work. More niche, nerd-centric areas (like anime licensing companies in the west) have had to overhaul their business plan in order to stay afloat. The revenues and sales numbers of the pasts aren't seen any more and expectations have had to be adjusted. A lot of it is a shift in consumer culture but to say that piracy has nothing to do with it is to kid yourself.
Funnily enough, stealing a physical copy is probably better for companies since they don't have to pay for returns of unsold copies.
isnt this kind of a joke?
i mean not all the people pirate games just becouse they dont wanna pay as example almost every single game doesnt has a demo now and you can only buy it.. specially with expensive ones so at least a few friends of mine usually try the game first and if they like it enough they end up buying it, even telling a few friends about how awesome the game is etc etc and they buy it too
where is the profit loss here?
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;37130350]Not intrusive at all, not even when your credit card charges back, locking you out of all of your games.
yep.[/QUOTE]
This happened to him 2 or 3 times if I recall correctly. :v:
[URL="http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2009/04/study-pirates-buy-tons-more-music-than-average-folks/"]Pirates several times more likely to buy music[/URL]
[URL="http://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2006/03/6418-2/"]Canadian Record Industry Association agrees[/URL]
If you have any reason to believe these stats don't apply to video games, please voice them now. I imagine this goes for pretty much all forms of media (books, movies, games, music, etc) though there may be exceptions.
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;37128990]Maybe game developers should start making games that are worth the money[/QUOTE]
You know how you make them do that? Listen in carefully because it's a big secret.
[b]Don't play their fucking games.[/b]
Notice how I said "play" instead of "buy." For example, Activision's going to make more bad CoD games regardless if you "tried before you bought," because an astronomically high amount of people gave them money. Look at MW2.. It was arguably one of the most pirated games of all times and it got a second, possibly third sequel.
If you (along with hundreds of thousands of others) boycott a game instead of taking the pretentious "HMMPH. NOT WORTH MY MONEY, I WILL PIRATE" route, there's a higher chance that the higher-up money guys will listen to your dumb opinion and publish better games.
[editline]8th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lyoko774;37136508]This happened to him 2 or 3 times if I recall correctly. :v:[/QUOTE]
"why are there suddenly charges from "VALVE SOFTWARE" on my credit card after giving my son my permission to buy a few videogames online? i'd better chargeback lol!!"
This actually happened.
[url]http://www.securityweek.com/anonymous-attacks-ukrainian-government-after-demonoid-takedown[/url]
Don't want to make a new thread for it since this is related.
I have a question though: If some [URL="http://www.usa.gov/"]government[/URL] decides to take action towards the users of the site wouldn't the DDoS-attack that happened before they shut the site down taint the evidence somehow?
[QUOTE=Re-y-tard;37137986][URL]http://www.securityweek.com/anonymous-attacks-ukrainian-government-after-demonoid-takedown[/URL]
Don't want to make a new thread for it since this is related.
I have a question though: If some [URL="http://www.usa.gov/"]government[/URL] decides to take action towards the users of the site wouldn't the DDoS-attack that happened before they shut the site down taint the evidence somehow?[/QUOTE]
Because attacking the government online will really make them want to change their stance on piracy and the shutdown of Demonoid.
Juuust trying to keep the subject up to date...
[QUOTE=Ybbats;37117013]The "games won't be pirated if they don't have DRM" argument? Wtf kind of argument is that? People release DRM-free games because they don't mind the loss of sales, maybe because they realize the world is a big place full of people who don't always have things so good, and if they can make a few bucks whilst doing what they enjoy and making people everywhere happy, that it's a worthwhile endeavor.[/QUOTE]
Actually generally speaking, DRM free games tend to have a higher percentage of sales to piracy rate compared to DRMed games.
Obviously it might be a difference of 10% sales to 90% piracy as opposed to 5% to 95, but the difference itself is pretty huge if you consider just what numbers we're talking about.
I believe Sins of a solar empire was DRM free and had better numbers than most DRM games.
[QUOTE=Legend286;37105296]USA are gonna pick on the wrong country some day and it's going to end bad.
I can't wait.[/QUOTE]
Is copyright violation grounds for war now or something?
[editline]8th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=wraithcat;37140275]Actually generally speaking, DRM free games tend to have a higher percentage of sales to piracy rate compared to DRMed games.
Obviously it might be a difference of 10% sales to 90% piracy as opposed to 5% to 95, but the difference itself is pretty huge if you consider just what numbers we're talking about.
I believe Sins of a solar empire was DRM free and had better numbers than most DRM games.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention the fact that DRM is more or less useless. The people who crack them see it as a challenge, not an obstacle.
[QUOTE=werewolf0020;37136432]isnt this kind of a joke?
i mean not all the people pirate games just becouse they dont wanna pay as example almost every single game doesnt has a demo now and you can only buy it.. specially with expensive ones so at least a few friends of mine usually try the game first and if they like it enough they end up buying it, even telling a few friends about how awesome the game is etc etc and they buy it too
where is the profit loss here?[/QUOTE]
There are more than enough reviews, ratings, playthroughs and general opinions available to you to come to a conclusion as to whether or not you will enjoy a game.
[QUOTE=No_Excuses;37140468]There are more than enough reviews, ratings, playthroughs and general opinions available to you to come to a conclusion as to whether or not you will enjoy a game.[/QUOTE]
Not really, going by those options I wasn't going to buy Battlefield 3. I played it and that's when I changed my mind.
[QUOTE=No_Excuses;37140468]There are more than enough reviews, ratings, playthroughs and general opinions available to you to come to a conclusion as to whether or not you will enjoy a game.[/QUOTE]
Most of these do not reflect my opinion and taste in gaming. Many games had less than perfect ratings and yet I enjoyed them more than top rated hyped popular games. Then there's the whole PC compatibility. SR2 for example ran like shit on some machines while being ok on others. The most accurate opinion can only be formed by actually trying the game or demo if there is one. What some reviewer writes can either be biased or simple not fit with my views or tastes. The games I like I buy, the games I don't I don't play. Simple as that. If not for piracy I wouldn't even buy many games as they didn't look all that good at first glance. If the developer doesn't provide a demo, I need to make my own. I've been deceived by online reviews a few times and wasted my money. I've learned my lesson.
The same is with a lot of movies. I've enjoyed many 5.0 or less IMDB scored movies yet the rating alone makes me not buy it.
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