Abortion rights crusader Dr. Henry Morgentaler has died at 90 - Polidicks

[quote=The Golden]And for the old and mentally ill - yes many places do kill them or just let them die because they can't afford it.[/quote] And there are places that still have slavery, acts of genocide, execution of prisoners etc I guess because these exist in reality then it is moral and we should likewise do it in our societies.

[QUOTE=Thom12255;40841979]No one in here has yet to tell me why a fertilised egg is not classed as human, all they have mentioned is development which is a terrible argument because a a born baby is no less a human than an adult.[/QUOTE] the same reason an acorn is not classed as a tree. why don't you tell us why a fertilized egg is a human?

[QUOTE=Thom12255;40841979]No one in here has yet to tell me why a fertilised egg is not classed as human, all they have mentioned is development which is a terrible argument because a a born baby is no less a human than an adult.[/QUOTE] You flunked in biology or grew up in the bible belt, there's no other sane explanation to your drivel.

[QUOTE=Protocol7;40841985]So what, when a sperm touches an egg it's allocated a soul or some magical bullshit and it's suddenly a person?[/QUOTE] [url]http://secularprolife.org/[/url] [editline]30th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Van-man;40842033]You flunked in biology or grew up in the bible belt, there's no other sane explanation to your drivel.[/QUOTE] Because there are no secular pro-lifers right? Also, that's not an American flag on the left.

[QUOTE=Thom12255;40841451]Ah, Abortion should be used because if not then that child will obviously have a terrible life and wish to be dead anyway, that's quite a leap of faith is it not? [/QUOTE] welcome to 'Missing the Point,' I'm your host Thom12255

[QUOTE=Thom12255;40841961]It is life, a human life.[/QUOTE] a collection of insentient tissue does not constitute life. if it did, everyone with bad dandruff would be a mass murderer, and your fingernail would be its own person. get fucking real. [editline]30th May[/editline] also, what exactly is the point where a collection of cells becomes life? you wouldn't cry over one cell, so why the fuss over one hundred? just because there's more of them doesn't make them any more sentient.

[QUOTE=Thom12255;40842034] Because there are no secular pro-lifers right? Also, that's not an American flag on the left.[/QUOTE] I guess there are secular pro-lifers. That in no way makes them right or validates your delusions. Which until you have some reasonable, rational, and [b]clear[/b] explanation to back your point of view up, it is effectively delusional.

[QUOTE=Thom12255;40842034][url]http://secularprolife.org/[/url][/QUOTE] Oh great, fringe retards. [QUOTE=Thom12255;40842034]Because there are no secular pro-lifers right? Also, that's not an American flag on the left.[/QUOTE] Too bad parts of Britain is at times just as conservative as the bible belt in the US.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;40842024]the same reason an acorn is not classed as a tree. why don't you tell us why a fertilized egg is a human?[/QUOTE] I would see a fertilised egg as a Seedling, it is developing but it is most certainly a plant.

Seriously let's go back to the semen example. A sperm cell is a living thing. But wasting thousands of those into a tissue is fine but when it's a developing fetus it's suddenly deplorable? How can you not see the disconnect? People are not magically different from any other living being aside from sentience.

[QUOTE=Thom12255;40842096]I would see a fertilised egg as a Seedling, it is developing but it is most certainly a plant.[/QUOTE] go up to any credible botanist with a seed and call it a plant. go on. observe how they try politely not to laugh in your face. you are simply fundamentally wrong and anyone with a 2nd grade science education can tell you why. jesus christ.

[QUOTE=The golden;40842152]That is biologically incorrect. A seedling is more like a toddler. Seriously. I'm into gardening and that is pretty bullshit. A seedling isn't even close to the beginning stages of a plants life-cycle. For the beginning stages, most of them don't even classify as living.[/QUOTE] I guess my love for sunflower seeds is now genocide.

i really want to see if this thread can turn into a gardening debate

He's right in that it is life, and that it could be considered a human life if we consider everything living from human dna as "human life". But it's irrelevant. Human life does not matter. What matters, is the personhood of that life. For instance, I would argue that Thom is probably not going to care if someone slaughters a pig for your dinner tonight, nor would he care to give dolphins the right to life, liberty, and property, and yet both of these animals are of greater personhood than even a human infant- they can think, they are conscious, they can feel pain and emotion- but at what point is Thom defending these creatures? He's not, because by all means these animals are not persons. Or perhaps he has a different rational? His rational is that these animals do not deserve protection because they are not human? Well, that's also very silly, because human biology does not dictate much of anything. Someone who is completely braindead- they are human, they are living, they are a human life. And they ought to be protected? What if, in the future, we were capable of removing the brains of people and exchanging them with simple computers? By all means, it's a human, it's functioning, and would Thom be willing to protect them still because it is a "human life"? Thom, what matters is not that it's a human life, what matters is that it is a [I]person[/I], because as you probably know, our humanity comes not from our being human, our humanity comes from our actions, thoughts, beliefs, and memories which interact and coincide and build us as who we are. Your single cell has none of that, it is worthless, and has no more merit- biological, moral, spiritual- to be considered a human being than the sperm cells that came leaking out the tip of your penis when you got a stiffy when looking at naughty pictures online. One cell is worthless, 2 cells are worthless, 3 cells are worthless, etc. We have a clear cutoff point for a reason, and it isn't to protect the sanctity of your sperm cells, it's the protect the sanctity of a person- a human person, who is living a very human life.

[QUOTE=Thom12255;40841383]Not for children's rights sadly.[/QUOTE] good thing children dont exist until they're born [editline]30th May 2013[/editline] they are unpersons

I'd hardly call something that isn't sentient yet or hasn't even developed organs 'living', it's just existing, parasitic even To me,if anything, it's virtually dead before it's terminated

[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];40842201']Long, eloquent post[/QUOTE] This is what I was trying to convey in my memory example, and why I explicitly stated I don't consider myself to be "me" up until that point, give or take. Granted that's probably not true because that means 4 years of me not being a person but still, the idea is the same.

Thom you are driving me fucking nuts, all you do is answer in questions and never back your claims up. It's like you're trying to make everyone hate you.

Thom12255 I'd really urge you to study a little more Biology.

[QUOTE=Thom12255;40841541]Would killing a coma patient be murder then or just disposing of a nuisance?[/QUOTE] It depends on what they have in their living will. If they dictate that they do not want to be kept on life support then it's unethical [i]not[/i] to follow their wishes. [editline]30th May 2013[/editline] oh man page 3 i sure missed a lot of wrong oh man its all over everything

My balls are full of people D:

[QUOTE=Thom12255;40842096]I would see a fertilised egg as a Seedling, it is developing but it is most certainly a plant.[/QUOTE] You remind me of that Richard Dawkins video where the woman kept asking for proof, only to continue asking for proof even after Dawkins kept telling her the proof was in museums and textbooks. Multiple people here have given you their answers. Also, why do you compare a fertilized egg to a seedling, then contradict yourself by saying that a seedling is not a plant? If a fertilized egg is a baby, then wouldn't the seedling be by that definition a tree?

[QUOTE=Cone;40841391]pro-life beliefs are directly contradictory and arbitrary and support the institutionalized oppression of women. so yeah, fuck those dickbags. fuck them hard.[/QUOTE] I've never seen so many liberal buzzwords put together like that

[QUOTE=Thom12255;40841970]Life beings at conception, a sperm on it's own is not a human life.[/QUOTE] That makes no fucking sense. A sperm is a cell with the potential to create life. By your logic (Calling a group of cells children) that means every time you have a wank you're committing genocide worse than Stalin. Stop with this sanctity of life/children start at conception bullshit because it's false feelgood shit created to try and control the lives of good people simply making a choice. Would I want my girlfriend to abort a fetus? No, because I know that we could both easily support it; I have a great job and a college education. However; when it comes down to it I would let her decide. She's still a young woman going to college and wanting to experience as much as possible while she can. It's not anyone's right to take that choice away. After all, she's the one who would suffer through the pregnancy and labor, plus it would completely shift her priorities. As much as I would love to have a baby, I am appalled by the thought of telling her what she can or can't do with her own body.

[QUOTE=SaltyWaters;40843319]I've never seen so many liberal buzzwords put together like that[/QUOTE] shouldn't you be out telling transsexuals to kill themselves or something?

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;40841712]oh so you're one of those "abortion is murder!!" kooks. i can explain why you're wrong but if i have to do that then you probably have the intelligence of a first grader. nothing to see here folks.[/QUOTE] Come on guys, you can do better than ad hominem. Even if you disagree with the guy, at least try to be respectful.

[QUOTE=Thom12255;40841970]Life beings at conception, a sperm on it's own is not a human life.[/QUOTE] If it's not alive how can it travel enough and fertilize the egg?

[QUOTE=Thom12255;40841656]A child's right not to be killed is more important, we should address those issues you brought up a in a different way. What? Would you like to explain why there are women por-lifers or will you just admit that was a really stupid comment to make. [editline]30th May 2013[/editline] Lets increase their funding then instead of pumping more money into abortion services. [editline]30th May 2013[/editline] That choice leads to the murder of an innocent.[/QUOTE] You should re-do grade-school. You obviously failed. [editline]30th May 2013[/editline] Bill o'Reilly got a strong hold on your brains.

[QUOTE=Thom12255;40841804]Why? Why does development matter?[/QUOTE] Your argument is so bad, I only need to pull out one quote from you to tell you why and how you are wrong. Why does development matter? Well, a fetus starts as a clump of human like cells, individual cells. Nothing more. Each cell is a cell, not a life. It can not legally be considered a human, because it is cells. When you shed skin , you shed human cells, when you bleed, you lose human cells. Now, if we take a cell as life, because those cells are no different than human cells in a living being, every cell is life. Every drop of blood, fleck of skin, life. Now, you tell me if you think that is life? You have no idea what biologically or legally, a life is considered. Call us baby murderers if it helps you, but it proves to literally everyone you don't know what you're talking about, that you don't even care to learn or understand.

[QUOTE=mac338;40843467]Come on guys, you can do better than ad hominem. Even if you disagree with the guy, at least try to be respectful.[/QUOTE] i'm not going to show respect to someone who has an opinion that's so ridiculous and fundamentally wrong that it can be solved with a google search of what "murder" and "life" is.