[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;24710579]I was hoping to come in here and see Conscript calling this capitalist propaganda, but then I remembered he was permabanned. :sigh:[/QUOTE]
Thank god,
The only good commie is a banned commie.
[QUOTE=Novistador;24760854]Thank god,
The only good commie is a banned commie.[/QUOTE]
Except conscript was a good poster.
Communism is basically dead and never really worked in the first place. North Korea is probably not going to exist in it's current state for much longer than a decade, and it looks like Cuba is moving away from Communism though not going full blown Capitalism. I hope this means we'll end that stupid embargo now.
[QUOTE=SM0K3 B4N4N4;24762004]Communism is basically dead and never really worked in the first place. North Korea is probably not going to exist in it's current state for much longer than a decade, and it looks like Cuba is moving away from Communism though not going full blown Capitalism. I hope this means we'll end that stupid embargo now.[/QUOTE]
Neither one of those are communist.
North Korea doesn't even try to pose anymore, they moved completely to Jusche and broke from even the authoritarian socialism of Maoism, Stalinism, and post-Mao Chinese economics with the death of Sung.
Also, Conscript was banned? How unfortunate.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;24760910]Except conscript was a good poster.[/QUOTE]
what was the reason?
I believe he committed account suicide.
[QUOTE=MRTW113;24746255]In theory, communism could be a perfect system.
But applying human nature to it, and you hit some roadblocks[/QUOTE]
Just like in theory our current system could be perfect, but it's not.
Communism has never been truly implemented so don't go around saying "Communism doesn't work."
Communism only works in small groups, and not forever. Greed corrupts, and it stops working.
[QUOTE=Mac2468;24764123]Just like in theory our current system could be perfect, but it's not.
Communism has never been truly implemented so don't go around saying "Communism doesn't work."[/QUOTE]
Communism requires everyone to agree and subscribe to it's system. This will never happen, therefore the only way Communism will ever exist is as a highly restrictive authoritarian police state, and not a proletarian utopia.
Communism doesn't work.
Communism isn't correct.
[QUOTE=OleWally;24769404]Communism requires everyone to agree and subscribe to it's system. This will never happen, therefore the only way Communism will ever exist is as a highly restrictive authoritarian police state, and not a proletarian utopia.
Communism doesn't work.[/QUOTE]
You can say the exact same thing about Capitalism. :/ "It reqiures everyone to agree and subscribe to its system otherwise those who are already well off will just take advantage of it and the class divide will become so great that society itself will collapse." For example.
If you haven't been living in a capitalist system all your life, the concept would look absurd, everybody thinking only for themselves and not for each other, like the whole country being thrown into a big race and the economy and business and society itself is supposed to just "take care" of itself. "How the hell can society operate under such a system?" you would ask, and you would go around proudly telling everybody that you've ever met "CAPITALISM DOESN'T WORK!" because it would "clearly" collapse under the weight of everybody trying to benefit themselves and letting the whole country go to shit because of it.
We can all "theorise" all we like about various economic systems but until its been implemented and tested, you can't possibly know. That is, unless you've actually [i]met[/i] every single person in the world and know them well enough to judge how they would react under such a system. Which I doubt.
[QUOTE=Neon-Knight;24769648]You can say the exact same thing about Capitalism. :/ "It reqiures everyone to agree and subscribe to its system otherwise those who are already well off will just take advantage of it and the class divide will become so great that society itself will collapse." For example.
If you haven't been living in a capitalist system all your life, the concept would look absurd, everybody thinking only for themselves and not for each other, like the whole country being thrown into a big race and the economy and business and society itself is supposed to just "take care" of itself. "How the hell can society operate under such a system?" you would ask, and you would go around proudly telling everybody that you've ever met "CAPITALISM DOESN'T WORK!"
We can all "theorise" all we like about various economic systems but until its been implemented and tested, you can't possibly know. That is, unless you've actually [i]met[/i] every single person in the world and know them well enough to judge how they would react under such a system. Which I doubt.[/QUOTE]
Except in a free market Capitalist system you can be a Communist and choose to live on a private Commune and essentially run it how you please. In a Communist system free markets are outlawed. Capitalism doesn't require everyone to agree and subscribe to it's system, I don't know where you got this idea. Let's say you go to McDonalds, and don't like their burgers or their prices or their services, you're not stuck being forced to subscribe to McDonalds, you can just go to Burger King. Class divides don't happen until there is only very rich and very poor, if a rich man wants to expand business operations, he needs to hire new employees, if he wishes to have customers for this business there needs to be people with money to pay for it's products or services.
I think you are just projecting your own view of a Capitalist society on me because you yourself are ignorant of the concepts. What is the problem with people thinking for themselves, do you think the government needs to do the thinking? Is the government not made up of people? How is it that they are not thinking for each other? If an entrepreneur sees that people are in need of shoes would they not start the manufacture of them? This facilitates the creation of jobs and provides people with shoes, is this not beneficial for everyone? Why would the economy not be able to take care of itself? What we are seeing today is heavy regulation, limited liability, bailouts... we are seeing business that can't sustain themselves taking toll on public dollars rather than burning out and being replaced by a more efficient enterprise. Why do you think society can't take care of itself without a government forcibly taking control of everything?
Why do you think I would go around telling people an entirely capable system wouldn't work because you think I wouldn't understand it? People who say Communism works great in theory are just repeating the same thing they've heard so many times to rationalize a poor system. Communism does not look good on paper. Communism does not work in practice. I don't need to personally know every person on the planet to see that Capitalism looks good on paper and works well in practice. Just because it is a system that doesn't guarantee you good results does not mean that it is broken.
No, sorry, but you're totally, completely ignorant of the point I was trying to make. Before you go off on one of your little patriot rage things, I suggest reading posts thoroughly before making yourself look foolish.
Did you miss the part where I said
[quote]
[b]If you haven't been living in a capitalist system all your life[/b], the concept would look absurd[/quote] or are you just looking for excuses to tell everybody why you hate Communism?
[quote]I think you are just projecting your own view[/quote] I never said that was my view. :/ I suggest you go back and re-read my post, because you've completely, completely missed the entire point of it. This is like, the most obvious and obtuse use of a straw man argument I've ever seen. I mean really, I don't think you could possibly be any further than the point I was trying to make.
[QUOTE=Neon-Knight;24770302]No, sorry, but you're totally, completely ignorant of the point I was trying to make.
Did you miss the part where I said
or are you just looking for excuses to tell everybody why you hate Communism?
I never said that was my view. :/ I suggest you go back and re-read my post, because you've completely, completely missed the entire point of it.[/QUOTE]
Why does it matter if I haven't been living in a Capitalist system. I haven't really been living in a Capitalist system my whole life, and how does this explain Communists living in Communist systems their whole life despising Communism and wanting to embrace Capitalism? How does it explain all the kids on here who have been living in Capitalist systems their whole lives deploring it and wanting to change to Communism? I think you don't have a point and the entire post was a poor attempt to thwart an argument you would lose.
Well you're clearly having a hard time keeping up so I'll use bold and italics to make it clearer.
You completely missed the fact that I was purposefully being sarcastic and it was an example of what somebody could say if they were totally ignorant. :/ Then you come along, take my example to be my actual opinion and tell me off for being totally ignorant. Seriously.
[b]The point I was originally trying to make is that you can not possibly know the outcome of an economic system without observing it in practice. You do not know enough about humans[/b]. The reason you KNOW capitalism works pretty well is because you've SEEN it. Have you seen communism working, well or not? No. Because it hasn't happened.[b]You are (and the rest of the world is) ignorant of communism because you have never seen it before. Your 'theories' on whether communism works or not are worth bullshit[/b]. Just like my sarcastic OTT pretend [i]totally-not-genuine-or-my-actual-opinion[/i] theories in my post were worth [b]bullshit[/b]. But they would have made perfect sense if [i]nobody had ever observed capitalism before[/i].
I never said I was a communist. I never said I hated capitalism and I never said that I thought capitalism would destroy society. You just made that shit up based on what I said somebody [i]could[/i] say should they be totally ignorant of capitalism, just like what [i]you're[/i] saying, when you're totally ignorant of communism. [i]They would hold the same weight[/i].
Now go away. And don't join the debate team. :/
[QUOTE=Neon-Knight;24770629]You completely missed the fact that I was purposefully being sarcastic and were an example of what somebody could say if they were totally ignorant. :/
[b]The point I was originally try to make is that you can not possibly know the outcome of an economic system without observing it in practice. You do not know enough about humans[/b]. The reason you KNOW Capitalism works pretty well is because you've SEEN it. Have you seen Communism working, well or not? No. Because it hasn't happened.[b]You (and the rest of the world) is ignorant of Communism because we have never seen it before. Your 'theories' on whether communism works or not are worth bullshit[/b]. Just like my sarcastic OTT pretend totally-not-genuine-or-my-actual-opinion theories in my post were worth [b]bullshit[/b]. But they would have made perfect sense if [i]nobody had ever observed Capitalism before[/i].
I never said I was a communist. I never said I hated capitalism and I never said that I thought capitalism would destroy society. You just made that shit up based on what I said somebody [i]could[/i] say should they be totally ignorant of Capitalism, just like what [i]you're[/i] saying, when you're totally ignorant of communism. [i]They would hold the same weight[/i].
Now go away.[/QUOTE]
Really? Which part of it was sarcastic? Was it: "You can say the exact same thing about Capitalism"? No? What you said about how we can all "theorise" about economic systems is somewhat true, but Communism doesn't look good on paper to begin with, I have no idea why people say this. Logically, what I said originally about Communism is true, so it has no weight to it as a stable, utopian system that people would like to think of it as. Whether it has been implemented to the exact specifications that modern Communists would like is irrelevant to whether it is a viable system. If you were born in North Korea anytime recently, you would have seen where the many times the government has failed, the black markets have picked up the slack, so much to the point that the government made them temporarily legitimate (although very limited), so they could probably imagine how a full Capitalist system would work. Your whole 'point' relies on the idea that when people hear about an idea they don't actually think about it.
I never said you were a Communist, I asked you a series of questions pertaining to your post that you still haven't answered.
EDIT:
Hah, generally the debate team doesn't allow people to make an argument and then claim they were being sarcastic when they are made a fool of.
Learn the difference between fact an opinion. "Communism doesn't look good on paper to begin with". That's an opinion. You cannot claim to use "logic" with opinions. What you said originally about communism is an opinion. It cannot be true or untrue. "It has no weight to it as a stable, utopian system". That is an opinion, because as of yet, it has not been tested. Unless you want to cite the research it's based on. Which you don't want to do because there isn't any.
You're actually trying to use North Korea as an example of communism? Go on, why don't you go and claim Stalin's policies were communist too? Or try to say that modern China is exactly what [i]The Communist Manifesto[/i] describes? Have you even read Marx? Do you even know what communism is? Or is your source on all things communism 'Fox News'? You're only damaging your own credibility here.
Stop being obtuse and go away, nobody wants to read this crap, least of all me, it's derailing the thread. And I would only want to talk about this with somebody who has actually read Marx and researched communism and who knows what I'm actually going on about here. I officially refuse to continue this in this thread. If you really feel the need to discuss this more, PM me.
[QUOTE=Neon-Knight;24771226]Learn the difference between fact an opinion. "Communism doesn't look good on paper to begin with". That's an opinion. You cannot claim to use "logic" with opinions. What you said originally about communism is an opinion. It cannot be true or untrue. "It has no weight to it as a stable, utopian system". That is an opinion, because as of yet, it has not been tested. Unless you want to cite the research it's based on. Which you don't want to do because there isn't any.
You're actually trying to use North Korea as an example of communism? Go on, why don't you go and claim Stalin's policies were communist too? Or try to say that modern China is exactly what [i]The Communist Manifesto[/i] describes? Have you even read Marx? Do you even know what communism is? Or is your source on all things communism 'Fox News'? You're only damaging your own credibility here.
Stop being obtuse and go away, nobody wants to read this crap, least of all me, it's derailing the thread. And I would only want to talk about this with somebody who has actually read Marx and researched communism and who knows what I'm actually going on about here. I officially refuse to continue this in this thread. If you really feel the need to discuss this more, PM me.[/QUOTE]
Actually, I said logically what I had said originally was true, and what I had said originally was that not everyone would agree with Communism, which is true. Did I use North Korea as an example of a Communist society? I don't remember writing that, I used them as an example of a society that was not Capitalist. I actually have read the Communist Manifesto (although not Das Kapital which I know Communists will insist I need to read). You try to say everything I have learned is from Fox News? Who said I watch Fox News? I rarely watch television at all. Stop telling me to go away, that is bannable, as well how am I derailing the thread, the thread is about Communism not working, and I am posting about Communism not working. Although I see by your last post you are in fact a hypocrite, calling me obtuse than refusing to debate with me, which you haven't yet done, you've only used the typical leftist tactics of strawmanning, deflection, and ridicule. Although if you don't want to continue in this thread I have no qualms about that.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;24749196]I'm willing to bet that 95% of the people on facepunch who say they are communists probably just read through the Wikipedia article on it, and actually have no idea what they are talking about.[/QUOTE]
No, I'm just just trying to be a rebel or "look cool" by being a Communist. And no, I haven't just read the Wikipedia page, I've read the Manifesto and I am reading "Down with Big Brother" right now.
Things would be alot better for Cuba if the US would lift the trade blockade against them seriously its been 60 years.
Capitalist propaganda :colbert:
Update:
[url]http://islamiacu.blogspot.com/2010/09/fidel-castro-aclara-sobre-modelo-cubano.html[/url]
Translation via google:
Fidel Castro on Cuban model clarified: what does not work is capitalism.
The Cuban government, some interpretations published today disqualified from interview with American journalist Jeffrey Goldberg of The Atlantic magazine.
During the presentation of his latest book "The strategic counteroffensive" in the Aula Magna of the University of Havana, Fidel Castro said Goldberg asked if he believed the Cuban model was something still worth exporting.
"It is clear that this question implied the theory that Cuba was exporting the revolution. I reply" The Cuban model no longer works even for us. "He expressed no bitterness or concern," said Fidel Castro, according to Television Cubana.
But actually said, "is that my answer meant the exact opposite of what the analyst Goldberg and Julia Sweig, who accompanied him, performed on the Cuban model.
"My idea, as everyone knows, is that the capitalist system and not even good for America or the world, leading from crisis to crisis, which are becoming increasingly serious, comprehensive and repeated, of which no can escape. How could provide such a system to a socialist country like Cuba, "said Fidel Castro.
Turning to the issue of the Cuban Missile Crisis the first secretary of Communist Party of Cuba said "it is true, I addressed the issue and I asked the question.
Literally, as he puts it in the first part of his story, his words were: "I asked: At one point it seemed logical that you would recommend to the Soviets to bomb the United States. Did you recommended still seems logical now? Fidel said: Having seen what I seen, and not worth it at all. "
I had explained well, and to writing, the contents of the message "... if the United States invaded Cuba, a country with Russian nuclear weapons in such circumstances should not be left to the first blow as that inflicted on the USSR when the June 22, 1941, the German army and all European forces attacked the USSR. "
It can be seen, "he explains Fidel Castro, that this brief allusion to the subject, in the second part of the delivery to the public of the news, the reader may not realize that" if the U.S. invaded Cuba, a country with Russian nuclear weapons " In this case I recommended to prevent the enemy struck the first blow, nor the profound irony of my response "... Had I known what I know now ..." in obvious reference to the betrayal by a president of Russia, saturated alcohol substance, gave the most important U.S. military secrets in that country.
I keep thinking, "said the leader of the Cuban Revolution, which Goldberg is a great journalist, able to explain to amenity and master their views, which require debate. No inventa frases, las transfiere y las interpreta. No invents phrases, transferred and interpreted.
Fidel Castro full message in the presentation of his book "strategic counteroffensive"
We are in a rare moment of human history.
These days you meet the deadlines given by the Security Council United Nations for Iran to comply with the requirements dictated by the United States, related nuclear research and enrichment of uranium for medical and electrical energy production.
That's all you can try.
The fear of seeking nuclear weapons production, is only a guess.
Around the sensitive issue, the U.S. and its Western allies, including two of the five nuclear powers with veto power, France and the United Kingdom, supported by the capitalist powers richest and most developed of the world, have prompted a growing number sanctions against Iran, an oil rich country and Muslims. Today approved measures include inspection of their trade, and harsh economic sanctions that lead to strangulation of the economy.
I have followed closely the serious dangers of this situation, since the occurrence of an outbreak of war at that point, the war quickly would become nuclear, with lethal consequences for the rest of the planet.
Not seeking publicity or sensationalism in reporting such hazards. Simply to alert world opinion in the hope that warned of this grave danger, helping to prevent it.
At least, it has attracted attention to a problem that was not even mentioned in the mainstream of world opinion.
This forces me to use some time for the launch of this book, whose publication work hard. I did not want to coincide with days 7 and 9. The first meeting 90 days mandated by the Security Council to determine whether or not Iran complied with the requirement to allow inspection of its merchants. The first meeting 90 days mandated by the Security Council to determine whether or not Iran complied with the requirement to allow inspection of its merchants.
So far, we only have the unusual statement by the Director General of the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency), Japan's Yukiya Amano, a man of the Yankees. This threw all the wood on the fire and, like Pontius Pilate, washed his hands.
A spokesman for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Iran said his statement with deserved contempt. A news release from the agency EFE, said that his statement that "'Our friends should not worry because we do not believe that our region is in condition for new military adventures", and "Iran is fully prepared to respond to any invasion military 'was an obvious reference to Cuban leader Fidel Castro, "who warned of the possibility of an Israeli nuclear attack on Iran with U.S. support'."
The news on the topic follows another, and mingle with others of significant impact.
The journalist Jeffrey Goldberg of The Atlantic magazine, already known for our public, publishes parts of the long interview held with me, some interesting point of which has been programmed before the future and long article.
"There were many strange things during my recent stay in Havana," he tells [...] "But one of the most unusual was the level of self-examination of Fidel Castro. [...] But the fact that Castro was willing to admit he had made a mistake at a crucial time of the Cuban Missile Crisis in Cuba seemed truly amazing [...] he regretted that he had asked Khrushchev nuclear rockets launched against the United States. "True, I addressed the issue and I asked the question. Literally, as he puts it in the first part of his story, his words were: "I asked: At one point it seemed logical that you would recommend to the Soviets to bomb the United States. Did you recommended still seems logical now? Fidel said: Having seen what I seen and have known what I know now, not worth it at all. "
I had explained well, and to writing, the contents of the message "... if the United States invaded Cuba, a country with Russian nuclear weapons in such circumstances should not be left to the first blow as that inflicted on the USSR when the June 22, 1941, the German army and all European forces attacked the USSR. "
Can be seen that this brief allusion to the subject, in the second part of the delivery to the public of the news, the reader might realize that "if the U.S. invaded Cuba, a country with Russian nuclear weapons" in this case I recommended prevent the enemy struck the first blow, nor the profound irony of my response "... Had I known what I know now ..." in obvious reference to the betrayal by a president of Russia, substance saturated with alcohol, gave United States military's most important secrets of that country.
At another point in the conversation Goldberg says: "I asked him if he believed the Cuban model was something that was worth even export." Clearly, this question was implicit theory that Cuba was exporting the revolution. I reply "The Cuban model no longer works even for us." He expressed no bitterness or worry. I have fun now to see how he interpreted to the letter and see for what it says Julia Sweig, an analyst at CFR that accompanied it, and developed the theory presented. But the reality is that my answer meant the exact opposite of what the two American journalists interpreted on the Cuban model.
My idea, as everyone knows, is that the capitalist system and not even good for America or the world, leading from crisis to crisis, which are becoming increasingly serious, comprehensive and repeated, of which there can escape. How such a system could serve for a socialist country like Cuba.
Many Arab friends, to hear that I spoke with Goldberg, became worried and sent a message pointing to him as "the greatest supporter of Zionism."
From all this we can deduce the confusion that exists in the world. I hope therefore that what I tell my thinking is useful.
The ideas expressed by me are contained in 333 Reflections, to see that happen, and of these, the last 26 are referred exclusively to environmental problems and the imminent danger of a nuclear conflagration.
Now I add in a very brief summary.
I have always condemned the Holocaust. In reflections on "Obama's speech in Cairo," "The blow on the prowl" and "expert opinion", I stated clearly.
I've never been an enemy of the Jewish people, which I admire their ability to resist for two thousand years of dispersion and persecution. Many of the brightest talents, Karl Marx and Albert Einstein were Jewish, because it is a nation that survived the most intelligent, under a law of nature. In our country, and the world, were persecuted and slandered. But this is only a fraction of the ideas I advocate.
They were not the only persecuted and slandered for their beliefs. Muslims, for well over 12 centuries, they were attacked and persecuted by European Christians, because of their beliefs, as had been the early Christians in ancient Rome before becoming the official religion of the empire. The story should be accepted and remembered as it is, with its tragic realities and fierce wars. That I have spoken and, therefore, rightly explained the dangers that runs humanity when these have become the greatest risk of suicide for our fragile species.
If we add a war with Iran, even if conventional in nature, it would be better that the United States turned off the light and fired. How could it resist a war against 1 500 million Muslims?
Defending peace is not to a true revolutionary, renouncing the principles of justice, without which human life and society would be meaningless.
I still think that Goldberg is a great journalist, able to explain to amenity and master their views, which require debate. No invents phrases, transferred and interpreted.
Do not mention the content of many other aspects of our conversations. Respect the confidentiality of the issues we address, while I look forward to his lengthy article.
Current news coming on stream from all sides, forcing me to fill your presentation with these words, whose seeds are contained in the book of "strategic counteroffensive" I have just presented.
I believe that all peoples have the right to peace and enjoyment of property and natural resources of the planet. It's a shame what is happening to the population in many African countries, where they are millions of children, women and men among its inhabitants skeletal because of lack of food, water and medicines. Graphics is news coming from the Middle East, where Palestinians are deprived of their lands, their houses are demolished by monstrous equipment and men, women and children, bombarded with white phosphorous and other means of destruction, and horrific scenes of families wiped out by bombs dropped on Afghan and Pakistani villages for unmanned aircraft, and the Iraqis who die after years of war, and more than a million lives sacrificed in this war imposed by a U.S. president.
The last thing I could expect was the news of the expulsion of the French gypsies, victims of the cruelty of the French extreme right, which already amounted to seven thousand of them, the victims of another kind of racial holocaust. It's elementary strong protest of the French, which, simultaneously, the millionaires limit the right to retirement, while reducing employment opportunities.
U.S. hear of a minister of the state of Florida, which proposes to burn in his own church, the Holy Book of Quran. Even the Yankee military chiefs and European war punitive missions quaked at the news that they considered risky for soldiers.
Walter Martinez, the renowned journalist Dossier program Venezolana de Televisión, was amazed at such madness.
Yesterday, Thursday, 9 in the evening, news came that the pastor had given up. Would need to know what they told the FBI agents who visited him "to persuade." It was a huge media show, chaos, things typical of an empire that is sinking.
I thank you all for your attention.
September 10, 2010
[QUOTE=Crhem van der B;24708520]You kidding? It's like going back in time to the 50s when going to Cuba.[/QUOTE]
'eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey!
Cuba would be better off if they didn't have all the sanctions. They've done really well with what they have.
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