There will be no babies born with Downs Syndrom after 2030 in Denmark - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Fatal-Error;31172926]Is there anyway to correct this while it is still in the single cell phase. Part of GCSE biology does cover removing specific parts of the genome with enzymes. Surely you could get rid of the extra piece before the cell divides.[/QUOTE] i'm not sure if that is ethical [editline]17th July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=carcarcargo;31172953] I'd say it was human as soon as it developed a brain.[/QUOTE] i'd say more when the brain develops consciousness

this is good, eventually these disabilities can be completely erased from the world like this. refining the human genome ftw.

Edit

I don't see what's wrong with aborting a fetus in its early stages so a kid won't have to live a life with Downs.

[QUOTE=UnknownDude;31173026]I don't see what's wrong with aborting a fetus in its early stages so a kid won't have to live a life with Downs.[/QUOTE] I'd rather have a life with downs than none at all.

At the risk of sounding like a complete monster, I personally support this.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;31173043]I'd rather have a life with downs than none at all.[/QUOTE] Because you're conscious and self-aware. A foetus isn't.

This article is just about the technology to scan for a defect then have an abortion, if the parent still wants to continue with pregnancy and have the down syndrome child they can. I see nothing morally wrong with letting more parents have the option.

I support this. I don't think pre-birth disability based Eugenics is a bad thing at all. I would love to have my offspring screened for this and any other abnormalities that could significantly hinder their lives. If I had a choice between having a down syndrome child and no child at all, I'd rather have none. I don't care how selfish that sounds.

Parents should be informed about the child's probable condition and given the option to abort it if they want. I see nothing wrong with this.

[QUOTE=Kade;31173129]I support this. I don't think pre-birth disability based Eugenics is a bad thing at all. I would love to have my offspring screened for this and any other abnormalities that could significantly hinder their lives. If I had a choice between having a down syndrome child and no child at all, I'd rather have none. I don't care how selfish that sounds.[/QUOTE] Honestly it doesn't sound selfish to me at all. If that kid had a conscious choice, they'd probably take the same option.

Notice how its always the Parents of kids with downs syndrome who are outspoken about aborting down syndrome babies, they might as well say "I've had to ruin my life by having to take care of this perpetually infantile incompetant person and so should yoooooooooou!" Sure you can get by raising one of those kids but it would be one hell of an imposition on your life, your short finite life which you only live once, and if you could avoid it you should. Bear in mind I say all this as a person who has a genetic "defect" (or condition or whatever) though it's one that you wouldn't be able to tell I had by looking at or speaking to me, and although I recognize that as a human being I have a pretty good quality of life, I would not want any of my children to have to bear any of the negative things I've had to go through as a result of my condition, and if I tried to produce biological offspring I would do everything I could to ensure any child would not be born with my condition.

[QUOTE=Novistador;31173243]Notice how its always the Parents of kids with downs syndrome who are outspoken about aborting down syndrome babies, they might as well say "I've had to ruin my life by having to take care of this perpetually infantile incompetant person and so should yoooooooooou!" Sure you can get by raising one of those kids but it would be one hell of an imposition on your life, your short finite life which you only live once, and if you could avoid it you should. Bear in mind I say all this as a person who has a genetic "defect" (or condition or whatever) though it's one that you wouldn't be able to tell I had by looking at or speaking to me, and although I recognize that as a human being I have a pretty good quality of life, I would not want any of my children to have to bear any of the negative things I've had to go through as a result of my condition, and if I tried to produce biological offspring I would do everything I could to ensure any child would not be born with my condition.[/QUOTE] Out of curiosity, what 'defect' do you have?

[QUOTE=sltungle;31173282]Out of curiosity, what 'defect' do you have?[/QUOTE] Connective tissue disorder, it affects pretty much every part of the body (BUT NOT THE BRAIN, I can already see the line of people I have debated in the past itching to write me off as retarded or something) but the main issue is the gradual growing and weakening of the Aortic root, which causes a valve replacement to be necessary. I recently saw a cardiologist who said they could not guarantee I would not need this open heart valve surgery for the next 5 years, which is a somewhat depressing prospect for a 19 year old.

[QUOTE=Novistador;31173357]Connective tissue disorder, it affects pretty much every part of the body (BUT NOT THE BRAIN, I can already see the line of people I have debated in the past itching to write me off as retarded or something) but the main issue is the gradual growing and weakening of the Aortic root, which causes a valve replacement to be necessary. I recently saw a cardiologist who said they could not guarantee I would not need this open heart valve surgery for the next 5 years, which is a somewhat depressing prospect for a 19 year old.[/QUOTE] That blows monumentally.

[QUOTE=SteelReal;31172085]For people saying this is terrible, it's equally as terrible having to live a life with down syndrome and if we can prevent it then that's good.[/QUOTE] It is? Because my brother has Down's Syndrome, and he leads a perfectly happy life. Part of what separates us from the barbarians that lived hundreds of years ago is that we no longer take our children up to the top of mountains and toss off the ones we don't deem properly developed.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;31173043]I'd rather have a life with downs than none at all.[/QUOTE] This is what I think about it pretty much. I honestly don't know what the hell is wrong with somebody that would rather never be born than live with a mental handicap

[QUOTE=Kwaq;31172966]i'm not sure if that is ethical[/QUOTE] It's not ethical to remove a relatively crippling disability before someone is even born, what, do you think they want to be inferior?

[QUOTE=Fatal-Error;31173754]It's not ethical to remove a relatively crippling disability before someone is even born, what, do you think they want to be inferior?[/QUOTE] Like I said, I'll take being inferior over never being anything any day.

[QUOTE=Generous Feller;31173774]Like I said, I'll take being inferior over never being anything any day.[/QUOTE] What I suggested was removing the gene which causes downs syndrome before mitosis takes place. Not simply aborting them.

[QUOTE=Generous Feller;31173774]Like I said, I'll take being inferior over never being anything any day.[/QUOTE] This is a null point, since the foetuses they are aborting don't have an opinion on the matter. You can only say this opinion in hindsight, after you have lived your (assumed) perfectly happy life. The foetuses themselves don't give a shit. They are basically inanimate objects. The real issue is their impact on the people that are going to have to look after them. They are the only ones that matter in this. If parents don't want that hindrance on their lives, then good for them.

As another person on this forums with a genetic defect - I support this fully. The woman in this article pisses me off though - "You go after one specific disability. What's next? Are children with diabetes that will be sorted out?" She asks." First of all, these are not children. They are fetus's. Secondly, this is a case of mental retardation, and not a physical ailment. A person can live a nominal life with physical disabilities(depending on the conditions), but a person with mental retardation will NEVER have a nominal life. Ever - Fucking Period. - Triple Signed - Mother fucking cherry on top. And there is nothing wrong with this. Parents are forced to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to support a child with a grave mental disability. Millions even. And the state pays as well through certain disability programs. We as humans feel pity, which is fine. But I would feel worse to not abort a fetus with an extreme risk(or diagnosed) case of mental retardation. So many fucking people here don't understand this situation at all.

I think this is a good idea (at least the screening part is). I've seen TV interviews where people have argued that this is analogous to genocide, and they are completely wrong. Nobody is forcing the parents to get an abortion if they find out their child has a defect. It is wrong however for doctors to try to convince the parents that abortion is "the right thing to do" under any circumstances (unless pregnancy would put the parent at serious risk of harm). This intrinsically implies that that the value of a disabled person's life is less than an able-bodied person. It should be left entirely up to the parent to decide without pressure from their doctor, family or society in general.

I would rather have it so they could "remove" the defect before they are born instead of just aborting the child. I suppose I sort of have a biased opinion towards abortion because I was going to be aborted myself and I would have never experienced how wonderful life is. Still though, if they couldn't remove the defect and they knew for sure the child would have a painful life with no joy then I would rather it be aborted than born into a short, miserable life.

[QUOTE=AaRoNg11;31174064]I think this is a good idea (at least the screening part is). I've seen TV interviews where people have argued that this is analogous to genocide, and they are completely wrong. Nobody is forcing the parents to get an abortion if they find out their child has a defect.[/QUOTE] It does put the parent at risk. To fully support a child with mental retardation costs around 5 million(give or take depending on the exact diagnosis). Your life is fucking over unless you want to pay off debt till you're dead, or have the state pay it off for you. [QUOTE=AaRoNg11;31174064] It is wrong however for doctors to try to convince the parents that abortion is "the right thing to do" under any circumstances (unless pregnancy would put the parent at serious risk of harm). This intrinsically implies that that the value of a disabled person's life is less than an able-bodied person. It should be left entirely up to the parent to decide without pressure from their doctor, family or society in general.[/QUOTE] Abortion is just the termination of a fetus. A collection of cells with the potential to become a human. It is not yet human. And about life intrinsic implication of someone's life's worth... That doesn't mean anything. We're not systematically sending the retarded to the gas chambers. We're preventing people being born with mental retardation. Huge fucking difference.

[QUOTE=CrabC;31174169]I would rather have it so they could "remove" the defect before they are born instead of just aborting the child. I suppose I sort of have a biased opinion towards abortion because I was going to be aborted myself and I would have never experienced how wonderful life is. Still though, if they couldn't remove the defect and they knew for sure the child would have a painful life with no joy then I would rather it be aborted than born into a short, miserable life.[/QUOTE] If it's a serious problem where the child will be paralyzed or almost brain dead then I'm not so adverse to it, but downs syndrome isn't that bad.

I'm not sure if you misread my argument, but I was saying that it was nothing like genocide. I fully support the initiative that the Denmark government are taking, I was just pointing out the various points that I agree or disagree with the critics. That is why I said it must be up to the parents to do it, and not a decision forced on them by doctors or their family.

I understand and the logical part of me supports this. But I don't get the people that say they would rather be aborted than have downs syndrome. Downs syndrome doesn't put you in constant, unbearable pain for your life before it kills you at 30, people with downs syndrome can still live fairly normal lives you know.

I really wonder if this has to do with the dutch' hardcore values :rolleye:

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;31174306]If it's a serious problem where the child will be paralyzed or almost brain dead then I'm not so adverse to it, but downs syndrome isn't that bad.[/QUOTE] Would you want to live with downs? Or better yet - Would you rather raise a child with downs, or not raise one at all? Riddle me that.