• A Guide to Ending "Gamers" - "Fun is a neurological trick."
    182 replies, posted
At first glance, though, he has a point. You see this in Star CItizen discussions often. When talking about anything to do with the game, posters often heavily imply that "fun" is synonymous with "brainless" or "easy". Game design is a lot more complex than what is "fun" and what "isn't". Just to name a few big points: there's also immersion, logic, game experience, involvement of patience as a game mechanic (not to be confused with F2P business tactics), realism, lore accuracy, class/gameplay type dynamics, balance, and onnnnnnn... I don't care enough about this very apparently angry post to fully read it, but it sounds like what he has to say about "fun" in games would be agreeable if he were not so aggressive.
[quote]We stop upholding “fun” as the universal, ultimate criterion for a game’s relevance. It’s a meaningless ideal at best and a poisonous priority at worst.[/quote] I'm struggling to think of anything more dumb and ass-backwards as this quote. What should games be other than fun? Seriously, what the shit?
[QUOTE=Cabbage;45861001]What should games be other than fun?[/QUOTE]They should be serious, and important, and make my dad feel [I]really[/I] stupid for telling me that videogames are a waste of time and that I wouldn't amount to anything after I got kicked out of film school! Uh, I mean... ahem.
[QUOTE=Cabbage;45861001]I'm struggling to think of anything more dumb and ass-backwards as this quote. What should games be other than fun? Seriously, what the shit?[/QUOTE] Enlightening, of course. One must approach videogames with only one goal in mind: come out as a better person.
Then feminists come in and come to fuck us up. Then there's gonna be the camwhores doing Twitch.tv streams with their boobies, then Anita,... Everything is hipocresy for every gamer. Male or female.
I think this one paragraph in the article can sum up the entire article itself. [quote]We make gaming more like recreation or reading than it is like religion. What we’re seeing lately is not merely a mob of odd hobbyists frustrated by change, but an army of fanatics on what they perceive to be a holy crusade. These people have dogmatic views of what games need to be (a theological approach, to be sure) and they express a devotion to the game industry that makes Mitt Romney’s tithing look stingy.[/quote]
The war sparked by the controversies two weeks back is still continuing, I see. Will gamers kill gaming journalists or will gaming journalists kill gamers?
[QUOTE=Benjimon007;45861909]The war sparked by the controversies two weeks back is still continuing, I see. Will gamers kill gaming journalists or will gaming journalists kill gamers?[/QUOTE] None of the above. This is going to blow over in a few weeks and we'll have something else to make a fuss over in games.
[QUOTE=DeandreT;45861465]I think this one paragraph in the article can sum up the entire article itself.[/QUOTE] Ok now I'm really confused: some people have compared gamers to atheists (implying reddit fedoras I guess?) and this person is comparing them to theistic mobs. Which is it? And why are none of these idiots talking about the SJWs? Their insanity over the past few weeks has easily dwarfed anything the gaming community has done.
[QUOTE=FlakAttack;45862069]Ok now I'm really confused: some people have compared gamers to atheists (implying reddit fedoras I guess?) and this person is comparing them to theistic mobs. Which is it? And why are none of these idiots talking about the SJWs? Their insanity over the past few weeks has easily dwarfed anything the gaming community has done.[/QUOTE]In any internet debate, your opponent can be whatever you want them to be, to suit any available "argument". You get this in politics as well; for example the contradiction of immigrants being both job-stealers and unemployed benefit scroungers.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;45858744]If Schindler's List can be hailed as an excellent film then a game that isn't fun can easily be an excellent game. I don't see what's so disagreeable about the overall premise here.[/QUOTE] because he's not saying something as obvious as "games can be fun but also not fun and still be good", that's also not even the overall point of the article/point (pretty damned clearly) he's saying that this is necessary change that the games culture needs to experience at a grassroots level. the only possible way that you could agree with this article is if a) you didn't read it or b) you were deliberately glazing over the parts of the article you already know are objectionable or horribly flawed with a view to playing devil's advocate furthermore, the only possible way that you can prolong the argument of this thread any longer is if you attempt to obfuscate the article to the point that it is a lot of wishy washy undisagreeable vague statements.
[QUOTE=Ziron;45860531]What creates them is simply a neurological trick, which means they don't actually exist because of our dumb brains making stuff up. In fact, we should have our brains removed and replaced with artificial ones so that we can be no longer burdened with fake crap that doesn't exist in nature like emotions and social constructs.[/QUOTE] What is the point of life if it isn't to experience emotions?
[QUOTE=Cabbage;45861001]I'm struggling to think of anything more dumb and ass-backwards as this quote. What should games be other than fun? Seriously, what the shit?[/QUOTE] look one post up for a possible translation
[QUOTE=FlakAttack;45862069]Ok now I'm really confused: some people have compared gamers to atheists (implying reddit fedoras I guess?) and this person is comparing them to theistic mobs. Which is it? And why are none of these idiots talking about the SJWs? Their insanity over the past few weeks has easily dwarfed anything the gaming community has done.[/QUOTE] I don't think you can complain about your opponent framing you negatively and use the phrase "social justice warrior" non-ironically in the same sentence without being a huge hypocrite. "SJW" is the internet's version of the right wing's "communist" when it comes to unreasonably shutting down debate. If you have an argument that can stand on its own then you don't need to insult your opponent. If you have to resort to the latter then maybe [i]you're[/i] the one unable to make a reasonable point.
I'm sure a gamers wouldn't mind a game with a political message at all, as long as it was entertaining. That's really the thing here. Movies can have political messages and still be great, if they're entertaining enough. If a movie isn't entertaining, not a lot of people are probably going to want to pay money to see it. Then it's just an informational video, something you watch as part of a study or something when you want to learn something, not something people usually do for the mere fun of it. Games can have political messages and still be popular, as long as they're entertaining. As long as they're actually games, meaning immersion and challenge. If there's no challenge, no real interaction and no real reason to be immersed because it's only meant to be a serious political message... it's just going to be a boring interactive information movie, not something people are going to be spending a lot of money on to enjoy on their free time.
[QUOTE=Simski;45862430]I'm sure a gamers wouldn't mind a game with a political message at all, as long as it was entertaining. That's really the thing here. Movies can have political messages and still be great, if they're entertaining enough. If a movie isn't entertaining, not a lot of people are probably going to want to pay money to see it. Then it's just an informational video, something you watch as part of a study or something when you want to learn something, not something people usually do for the mere fun of it.[/QUOTE] Many people are able to glean entertainment from a piece of media's educational, social, political, or artistic elements and don't need typical "fun" to enjoy it. Gamers just don't seem to like people who like different things than them. There seems to be a pandemic of Rusty Syndrome or something.
Let's replace all the films in movie theaters with nature documentaries and the passion of the christ.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;45862445]Many people are able to glean entertainment from a piece of media's educational, social, political, or artistic elements and don't need typical "fun" to enjoy it. Gamers just don't seem to like people who like different things than them. There seems to be a pandemic of Rusty Syndrome or something.[/QUOTE] eg "easy" summer blockbusters vs art house
What I've learned over the past days about gaming press on the internet is that it's sometimes better to not go down the rabbit hole.
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;45856550]Dont bring your politics into my video games.[/QUOTE] [video=youtube;7_tdztHiyiE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_tdztHiyiE[/video] 3:08 and onwards
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;45862770][video=youtube;7_tdztHiyiE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_tdztHiyiE[/video] 3:08 and onwards[/QUOTE] You hit it, sir.
-snip-
[QUOTE=FlakAttack;45862069]Ok now I'm really confused: some people have compared gamers to atheists (implying reddit fedoras I guess?) and this person is comparing them to theistic mobs. Which is it? And why are none of these idiots talking about the SJWs? Their insanity over the past few weeks has easily dwarfed anything the gaming community has done.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Kardia;45860202]At the end of the day, that heroic feeling social justice advocates get - when shitting on peoples fun for the sake of inclusion - is a neurological trick.[/QUOTE] "everyone that i disagree with is a social justice warrior and despite the fact that radical feminism has no power regardless of where i go i will continue to insist on talking about it"
[QUOTE=joes33431;45864653]"everyone that i disagree with is a social justice warrior and despite the fact that radical feminism has no power regardless of where i go i will continue to insist on talking about it"[/QUOTE] Yeah... Maya Kramer has plenty of power and is an abusive person, she may not be an actual feminist but to act like she has no power is, well, wrong. She's a PR rep who's been incredibly influential on silencing this issue. And yes, you're right, generalizing everyone you disagree with as a sjw is wrong, so is the other side of the coin and you can't defend one form and engage in another
I was having fun playing some cs, but it was just a ruse. Thanks for opening my eyes!!!
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45864668]Yeah... Maya Kramer has plenty of power and is an abusive person, she may not be an actual feminist but to act like she has no power is, well, wrong. She's a PR rep who's been incredibly influential on silencing this issue. And yes, you're right, generalizing everyone you disagree with as a sjw is wrong, so is the other side of the coin and you can't defend one form and engage in another[/QUOTE] i'm not defending anyone. i don't even know who maya kramer is.
[QUOTE=joes33431;45864730]i'm not defending anyone. i don't even know who maya kramer is.[/QUOTE] then how can you speak on the topic with some authority like you did there? many people here have been following pretty closely, and do know who she is 11 articles posted over a day and a half across 11 websites about how gamers are all misogynistic fuckwits too stupid and too sex driven to have a thought amongst them and you'll say that there's nothing to the idea of a "conspiracy" at all. People are talking about this precisely because there is power being used against regular people who aren't misogynists and we're being told plainly to shut up. Unless your quip there was something other than how wrong anyone is to think there's any power anywhere then I don't know what you were getting at.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45864815]then how can you speak on the topic with some authority like you did there? many people here have been following pretty closely, and do know who she is 11 articles posted over a day and a half across 11 websites about how gamers are all misogynistic fuckwits too stupid and too sex driven to have a thought amongst them and you'll say that there's nothing to the idea of a "conspiracy" at all. People are talking about this precisely because there is power being used against regular people who aren't misogynists and we're being told plainly to shut up. Unless your quip there was something other than how wrong anyone is to think there's any power anywhere then I don't know what you were getting at.[/QUOTE] they're articles on news websites, i don't think that they're meant to influence anyone's opinions or lead anyone into battle. it's a mixture of misguided finger-waggling and pandering to people who already had this opinion. it's not like she's glenn beck or bill o'reilly and can somehow lead masses of people to make a uniform decision or carry a uniform opinion; she's a games journalist, and pretty much everyone has been rightly scrutinizing and criticizing games journalism for the past couple of weeks. since we don't like these games journalism sites, and we all know that they're shit, the obvious thing is to stop using them, stop paying attention to them, and get our news from third-party sources, or via word of mouth. sure, i understand that criticizing games journalism is an important point, but that doesn't require acronym-labeling or a hate-circlejerk around feminism.
[QUOTE=joes33431;45864869]they're articles on news websites, i don't think that they're meant to influence anyone's opinions or lead anyone into battle. it's a mixture of misguided finger-waggling and pandering to people who already had this opinion. it's not like she's glenn beck or bill o'reilly and can somehow lead masses of people to make a uniform decision or carry a uniform opinion; she's a games journalist, and pretty much everyone has been rightly scrutinizing and criticizing games journalism for the past couple of weeks. since we don't like these games journalism sites, and we all know that they're shit, the obvious thing is to stop using them, stop paying attention to them, and get our news from third-party sources, or via word of mouth. [B]sure, i understand that criticizing games journalism is an important point, but that doesn't require acronym-labeling or a hate-circlejerk around feminism.[/B][/QUOTE] Literally no one worth listening to is saying this or defending this and this is the fallback argument for everyone saying "Why bother critiquing it". I don't get why that's the end though. Why can't there be criticism levied that isn't that? Why is the criticism that is intelligent and thoughtful just dismissed as misogynistic or in defense of those who are? The thing is, that if that many sites are all posting the same thing, they are influencing peoples opinions. They are. And those are clearly meant to influence peoples opinions. I don't know how you see that as something that's not trying to persuade anyone of anything.
These people HATE video games. They hate people that play them. They hate the people that create them. They hate EVERYONE that isn't them. And this is just more proof of that. Remove this toxin from the games industry. It has no place here.
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