• Prepared text for Obama school message
    210 replies, posted
[QUOTE=yawmwen;17241309]The difference is Democratic Republics have actually worked. [b]All communist governments have turned into opressive totalitarian systems[/b].[/QUOTE] Has it occurred to you that communism wasn't the actual goal of those societies? If it was, the leaders would have actually tried. Not a single thing of those systems have mirrored anything to communism. EXCEPT the title.
[QUOTE=Trotsky;17241591]Has it occurred to you that communism wasn't the actual goal of those societies? If it was, the leaders would have actually tried. Not a single thing of those systems have mirrored anything to communism. EXCEPT the title.[/QUOTE] It was the goal of the people who allowed these people to take so much control.
That doesn't make it communism IRL.
[QUOTE=Trotsky;17242018]That doesn't make it communism IRL.[/QUOTE] If the people want communism, they get Stalinism, that sounds like communism IRL. [editline]08:09AM[/editline] I will hear you out though. Tell me what your idea of a true communist society is and how it would be able to work in the real world.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;17242136] Tell me what your idea of a true communist society is and how it would be able to work in the real world.[/QUOTE] If a system has never been implemented or no effort to implement it has been taken, then you can't, in anyway, say it can't work. The way it works and how it's implemented is all according to Marx's work. Implementation is through the socialism, then the dictatorship of the proletariat. What true communism is,, is a stateless and classless society. It has no formal means of currency and is basically described as a collectivist society. You work for society and society works for you: A Workers democracy.
[QUOTE=Trotsky;17242777]If a system has never been implemented or no effort to implement it has been taken, then you can't, in anyway, say it can't work. The way it works and how it's implemented is all according to Marx's work. Implementation is through the socialism, then the dictatorship of the proletariat. What true communism is,, is a stateless and classless society. It has no formal means of currency and is basically described as a collectivist society. You work for society and society works for you: A Workers democracy.[/QUOTE] How would that work in the real world? How can you make sure that people are working for their share? What if they physically can't work for their share? How can a society run itself without some form of government to keep order?
[QUOTE=gReplay;17188888]Kindergarten? I hardly doubt that anybody in Kindergarten would be that interested in Obama or anything political.[/QUOTE] people are getting involved in politics at a younger age these days...
[QUOTE=:smug:;17250988]people are getting involved in politics at a younger age these days...[/QUOTE] Well yeah! Where else are we going to get more Socialists?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;17250322]How would that work in the real world? How can you make sure that people are working for their share? What if they physically can't work for their share? How can a society run itself without some form of government to keep order?[/QUOTE] Look at communes. Look at ancient civilizations. Look at hunting and gathering societies. [editline]08:16AM[/editline] [QUOTE=radioactive;17251014]Well yeah! Where else are we going to get more Socialists?[/QUOTE] sochalizm :downs:
[QUOTE=Trotsky;17259101]Look at communes. Look at ancient civilizations. Look at hunting and gathering societies.[/QUOTE] Here you go again. Hey guys let's live like cavemen. [editline]03:17AM[/editline] THAT SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT IDEA LET'S LIVE IN A CAVE AND DIE FROM smallpox [editline]03:17AM[/editline] Hey bro why aren't those societies around anymore? WHO CARES THEY WORKED RITE
GJ misconstruing my point.
no bro really i mean you're sort of underestimating all of the tremendously horrible problems that hunter gatherer societies inherently had to tolerate in order to operate THEY WORKED shut up they worked [editline]03:19AM[/editline] I mean idolizing a type of civilization that ritualized slavery and rape is fairly wacko [editline]03:20AM[/editline] there's sort of a reason human rights only came about AFTER ancient civilizations its because they sucked
[QUOTE=Lankist;17259148]no bro really i mean you're sort of underestimating all of the tremendously horrible problems that hunter gatherer societies inherently had to tolerate in order to operate THEY WORKED shut up they worked [editline]03:19AM[/editline] I mean idolizing a type of civilization that ritualized slavery and rape is fairly wacko [editline]03:20AM[/editline] there's sort of a reason human rights only came about AFTER ancient civilizations its because they sucked[/QUOTE] I'm speaking in economics. Again, you're misconstruing my points entirely. [editline]08:26AM[/editline] OH RIGHT how dare i, you have a law degree you're always right. [editline]08:26AM[/editline] and you edit [editline]08:26AM[/editline] alot [editline]08:26AM[/editline] which makes you hardcore [editline]08:26AM[/editline] and edgy
What economics hunter-gatherer and ancient civilizations were fairly notorious for mass starvation [editline]03:27AM[/editline] and disease [editline]03:27AM[/editline] and very little inter-state trade [editline]03:28AM[/editline] and very little opportunity for an individual occupant to do anything more than be a slave either by official record or by state mandate [editline]03:28AM[/editline] fuck half of rome's economy was comprised of slaves [editline]03:28AM[/editline] they wouldn't have survived at all without slavery [editline]03:29AM[/editline] i doubt any modern iteration could do the same
Alright, then you're right. [editline]08:30AM[/editline] but im raceust lol
[QUOTE=Trotsky;17259101]Look at communes. Look at ancient civilizations. Look at hunting and gathering societies. [editline]08:16AM[/editline] sochalizm :downs:[/QUOTE] They didn't work too well, like the other dude said they were known for starvation and slavery. And even then it only works on a small scale. Look at how economics developed when nations started getting bigger. Sure it works for a few hundred people but for a large city or an empire it stops working so well.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;17259323]Sure it works for a few hundred people but for a large city or an empire it stops working so well.[/QUOTE] In communism you have something called a workers democracy. My examples were pretty poor, so I apologize. (Except for Communes.) What's your point?
What happens if the workers vote for a capitalist?
[QUOTE=Trotsky;17259388]In communism you have something called a workers democracy. My examples were pretty poor, so I apologize. (Except for Communes.) What's your point?[/QUOTE] A workers democracy turns into a workers tyranny. What happens when the majority decides that they want certain "undersirable" people to be kicked out?
[QUOTE=Lankist;17259400]What happens if the workers vote for a capitalist?[/QUOTE] By saying "for a capitalist" you're implying they vote for a leader. A workers democracy is making democratic decisions on yourself. The way communism works is, technically, is everyone makes up the government. The society as a whole is the government. In a republican democracy, people vote for government, and the government answers to them. In a workers democracy, it's on a personal and societal level. [editline]08:50AM[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;17259466]A workers democracy turns into a workers tyranny. What happens when the majority decides that they want certain "undersirable" people to be kicked out?[/QUOTE] Uh, no. Workers democracy is individual.
What if the society as a whole votes for capitalism
[QUOTE=Lankist;17259490]What if the society as a whole votes for capitalism[/QUOTE] Then they get capitalism.
[QUOTE=Trotsky;17259481] Uh, no. Workers democracy is individual.[/QUOTE] I'm not getting it, so I'm sorry. But if the people govern themselves then a majority of people in the "commune" can decide they want to throw out say, retards, or cripples.
[QUOTE=Trotsky;17259514]Then they get capitalism.[/QUOTE] See I'm going to criticize you either way because: If they get capitalism, it's fairly obvious communism wouldn't exactly be preferable or insurable If they don't get capitalism, it isn't exactly a democracy you fell into my web my web of tricks
[QUOTE=Lankist;17259539]See I'm going to criticize you either way because: If they get capitalism, it's fairly obvious communism wouldn't exactly be preferable or insurable If they don't get capitalism, it isn't exactly a democracy you fell into my web my web of tricks[/QUOTE] No because capitalism and democracy are interchangeable. There are socialist democracies and totalitarian capitalist societies. Governments and Economics don't neccesarily flow together in the most logical way.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;17259526]I'm not getting it, so I'm sorry. But if the people govern themselves then a majority of people in the "commune" can decide they want to throw out say, retards, or cripples.[/QUOTE] Again, no. Majority doesn't rule. As I told Lankist, if a whole society wants Capitalism. They get capitalism.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;17259568]No because capitalism and democracy are interchangeable. There are socialist democracies and totalitarian capitalist societies. Governments and Economics don't neccesarily flow together in the most logical way.[/QUOTE] Uhh yeah that's kinda what I said.
[QUOTE=Lankist;17259539]See I'm going to criticize you either way because: If they get capitalism, it's fairly obvious communism wouldn't exactly be preferable or insurable If they don't get capitalism, it isn't exactly a democracy you fell into my web my web of tricks[/QUOTE] saw that coming. Well seeing as communism has never been implemented, it's all theoretical. So yes, if the society votes capitalism, that means communism is undesirable, thus failing in that society. But who's to say it would do that? Who's to say it won't? I wouldn't have said that regardless. If the society doesn't get what they decide on, it's not a workers democracy. Besides, who would decide whether or not they get capitalism or not? There is no oligarchy. [editline]09:09AM[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;17259568]No because capitalism and democracy are interchangeable. There are socialist democracies and totalitarian capitalist societies. Governments and Economics don't neccesarily flow together in the most logical way.[/QUOTE] That's what he said.
Those who would strive for self-improvement are much greater in number than those who strive for the improvement of the whole. This is just a fact of humanity. Were a democratic communist society given a long enough timeline it would shift toward capitalism. That's why we live under capitalism today, society shifted that way for a reason.
Sorry I read your post wrong Lankist.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.