France’s highest court refuses to recognise 'neutral gender' as a category
255 replies, posted
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;52191778]Those minor deformities with respect to genitals have frequently been done without the consent of the individual, actually. It's a particular problem for some intersex people who are altered at birth who then age into gender dysphoria which would have otherwise been ameliorated (even if only slightly) by an unaltered set of genitals.[/QUOTE]
This doesn't do anything to address the fact that those people are an extreme minority and their status is the result of rare genetic deformities, the fact that they are surgically altered at birth to try and correct it is a completely separate issue. Like Sobotnik said, we define humans based on what a "normal" human is like, not based on a variety of genetic deformities that may occur in a small segment of the population.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52190899]we've got enough problems between having people of two genders already, and you think it's bad for legal stability to keep it that way? all people are equal, of course, but adding more genders to the mix-- which are completely made up, nonetheless-- wouldn't help the situation.[/QUOTE]
The person referenced is intersex, they don't have a traditional gender
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52191750]trans is not part of the particular discussion on the article itself, but you're right to bring it up. first of all, bathroom use should be based on your genitals (because people inherently don't like being around stranger's genitals, and this is made worse when that stranger has different genitals from them) and not on whatever gender you choose to call yourself. I respect people's rights to do so-- if somebody honestly feels more comfortable going as the opposite gender, they have the right to do so... personally. they can get their family and friends and people they meet in on it, sure, because that's how they're comfortable. but legally speaking, they should be considered based on the biology they were born with, because males are inherently different from females and vice versa.
thus brings me to my point, what about fake trans people? legally speaking, if we worry about somebody's gender based on their preference (which can extend to the article's topic by including "neutrality"), what if we have a legal case that's, for whatever asinine reason, banking on somebody's gender [i](which it should NEVER, because there's honestly no good reason for it ever to. the gender of somebody shouldn't be a deciding factor in their sentencing or the charges pressed against them, because anyone can rape/murder/etc. anybody regardless of gender, but I digress)[/i] and that person claims to be a different gender? legally speaking, they can game the system by lying about gender-- and since gender is, as you've said and as I made clear in my second post in this thread, purely fabricated based on "sex, societal roles, and [b]personal preference[/b]", there's no way to prove they're lying because it's a mental thing, similar to how people get away with crimes with bullshit insanity pleas. however, if we go by their biological sex as gender, then it's not something they can just make up, and we can predict behavior and motives to an extent based on the way their sex determines the wiring of their brain. it's clearly the most reasonable way for a legal system to handle gender: base it on their DNA and not their preference. [i](besides excluding gender/sex from the case/legal system in the first place, of course)[/i]
and as for the pronouns, as much as I respect a person's right to be trans, I'm gonna use pronouns based on how they were born and not what they choose. that athlete you mentioned-- you assume he's male because he's got a beard and bulging muscles and these are how he presents himself to society; and he presents himself with a beard and bulging muscles because these are the things that men tend to have more often than women, because that is how their bodies work! not too long ago there were a couple threads about an MTF trans wrestler who slaughtered his way through a wrestling competition. (imo, with no facts to back it up other than "he's had the hormones of a male for 30+ years, no hormone therapy can undo that," that guy should never have been in that competition to begin with.) I call him "him" and not "her" because, regardless of what pronouns he asks me to use, if I knew nothing about him and I looked at his DNA in a lab, I'd say "yep that's male." if I did know about his trans history, I'd look at his matches in the competition and say, "hmm, this sure looks like it's a guy wrestling women, given how he mops the floor with them in every round." sure, there are plenty of buff women who identify as women that could kick my ass and your ass, but they're the exception. would you consider a buff woman, who's clearly got female traits, to be "male" genderwise because she's big and burly and masculine? she can have all of these traits and identify as female, right? or she could identify as male. it's too ambiguous for a legal system to know for sure though, right? because the legal system doesn't know her personally, just like you and I. the legal system isn't meant to be personal, it's meant to be arbitrary-- a third party giving judgement based on evidence. and so, if the legal system is concerned about her gender, they need to look at what makes her biologically male or female because that's concrete.
[editline]5th May 2017[/editline]
his point is that the question of their number of fingers shouldn't be on the document in the first place. they can't choose to identify as a different kind of human because they don't have 10 fingers, because humans are supposed to have 10 fingers. likewise, they can't say "gender is a spectrum" (sex would be the better word, and sex is the root of gender) because humans are supposed to be male or female.[/QUOTE]
To be clear my point is that if you are asking for people to fit into boxes you should provide enough boxes. Also, I don't think you understand how hurtful it is to many trans people when they're misgendered. I'm guessing that you don't know any trans-people, and honestly as a cis person it isn't really anything I, and I'm assuming you, will ever understand, but it can be undermining and hurtful in quite a profound way. Just remember it costs you nothing to respect them, so please stop deliberately misgendering them.
[QUOTE=1239the;52191891]hoo boy there's a lot to pick through here
"Because people inherently don't like being around stranger's genitals, and this is made worse when that stranger has different genitals than them." What are you even basing this on? How can you make such a sweeping statement with a straight face? You have no way of backing this statement up.
"Legally speaking", people do not fit into narrow boxes no matter how much we try to make them fit. If you try to force people into boundaries, people start falling through the cracks. When you say "you have to be X or Y to be recognized legally" you're essentially reducing a complex issue down to "conform or be ignored".
I'm hella fucking confused by this.
1. Can you really think of an actual case where someone would lie about being trans for legal purposes?
2. People on the pro-transgender side of this issue are literally advocating for gender-neutral legal recognition, but you seem to be both for and against this idea. Either you want people to be seperated by legal definition, or you want them to be treated equally regardless of their gender. You can't have it both ways.
You don't respect trans people if you purposefully choose not to use their pronouns. There's no way around this.
You can assume whatever you want about someone, but if they say "I'm not the gender you assume I am" then you don't have to continue using assumptions because you then know better.
As for "that's how their bodies work" biology is extremely complex and has a ton of edge cases. There is no real binary, only the one you continue to assume exists.
The wrestler you're talking about is Mack Beggs, who is actually female-to-male, and was forced to fight against women despite wanting to fight other men. Because the system refused to recognize his transgender status.
lmao how far do you have to go to stretch this argument. If you know nothing about someone then you're not qualified to be passing judgement about who they are.
If someone says they identify as female, then they're female. If someone says they identify as male, then they're male. If someone says they identify as neither, they're intersex.
Once again you argue that the legal system should be 'arbitrary' instead of personal - yet you continue to insist that the gender binary should exist in a legal sense and trans people should not be recognized. What are you trying to say, dude?
A more apt comparison would be saying that people born without five fingers are not allowed to say that they don't have five fingers - they have to say they have five fingers, even if they don't. The law has to treat them as if they have five fingers, even if they don't. And in your world, there can be no exception to this rule.
Meanwhile if you were to include trans people into this metaphor, the law wouldn't care if they have five, or ten, or a billion fingers - they're still human.[/QUOTE]
1. How many sensitized-to-sex cultures (that is, the west, such as France as mentioned in the article) can you list where, in a public restroom or in public at all, the average person is okay with being around exposed penises, breasts, and/or vaginas? It makes people uncomfortable. It's why bathrooms have stalls, and it's why it's awkward to look at somebody's cock in a urinal, and it's why genital flashing is illegal.
2. I'm not saying you have to conform to something for legal recognition, I'm saying the legal system should recognize you as one or the other. When you get people going "please call me xe/xim/xer" things start to get messy, and soon enough we end up having safe spaces and asswipes like Milo Yannouplousnowjifj further complicating matters.
3. 1. Can you think of a legal case where people lie about some dumb shit (not to imply that the matter at hand is dumb) in order to get away with a crime? Criminals have a tendency to lie in court, you know. I didn't list an actual case, but in the hypothetical situation I proposed, it's certainly possible, no? 2. In my italics I said the legal system shouldn't be concerned about gender, because indeed it SHOULD not. Unfortunately, we live in a world where it IS, and unless we change the system to be fully sex/gender-neutral, or better yet sex/gender-APATHETIC, we need to establish proper boundaries for the system so that people cannot game it.
Also don't try to imply that I'm anti-trans, I went out of my way to say that I respect trans rights, I just personally don't approve of all the pronoun bullshit.
4. People can be trans all they want, but I don't give a damn about gender recognition (like I said multiple times) and so I'll refer to them as I please. I can respect a flamboyant homosexual's sexuality (wherein a flamboyant homosexual is defined as a homosexual who goes out of his way to demonstrate to people that he is gay. They're the minority, but they exist.) and tell him/her that they're annoying, and that I don't need to know that they're gay, right?
5.1. If this buff dude in the gym told me that he is biologically female, then I'd think "oh well you're a buff woman," not "oh well you identify as a man because you're buff." If they tell me "I'm biologically female but I identify as a man," I'd say, "but you just said you're a woman?" People can identify as what they're comfortable with, but that doesn't change what they actually are. 2. For the broad majority of human beings, there is a binary, in fact. The average woman will have lower muscle and bone density than the average man, but like I said, there's plenty of women that are big and buff enough to kick my ass. Those women are a pretty small minority. This applies to men that have "feminine" builds, and so on. The average guy is more easily capable of "lifting mad weights with bulging muscles" than the average woman. He might have a high pitched voice or something, but that doesn't mean he's not biologically male.
6. [url]https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/34720066/kiwi-transgender-weightlifter-laurel-hubbards-win-causes-stir-among-female-aussie-competitors/#page1[/url] I should have gone out of my way to link this article in the first place. Mack Beggs is a good case of anti-trans discrimination, and I agree that the system should have recognized her status in the first place, so that's not on her.
7. I literally said that the legal system works by being arbitrary. A third party. An entity that is not personally involved with the parties being charged and pressing charges. Which means that the legal system can't know for sure if somebody honestly identifies as a different gender and thus isn't lying. Which is why it needs to look at the persons' biology and not their word-of-mouth if it is concerned about their gender/sex. Which is my entire argument in the first place.
8. 1. If somebody says they identify as female, that doesn't matter-- their biology determines them being or not being female. If somebody says they identify as male, that doesn't matter-- their biology determines them being or not being male. If somebody says they identify as neither, that doesn't matter-- their biology determines them being male or female (unless they have some chromosomal issue but then the matter is a lot more complex, and that chromsomal issue is a VERY, VERY small minority of people.) 2. The system should be arbitrary, and so it cannot know if a person honestly identifies as a different gender based on their word-of-mouth because it is not personally involved with them to the extent that their word on a purely internal matter (gender identity, which only exists inside somebody's head) can be trusted. If the system acknowledges gender and sex, it can only recognize people by their biology. The system doesn't recognize people preferring not to be arrested, does it? It doesn't care about preference. This extends to gender.
9. The vast majority of humans are born with ten fingers. In identifying them as a human, their number of fingers doesn't matter. Thus, the question "shouldn't be on the document in the first place." This metaphor never applied to trans people in the first place, sobotnik was talking about gender spectrum. Not trans. That's why he mentioned a spectrum of the number of fingers a person might have: it doesn't matter, you're still human, and humans are normally born with 10 fingers. (I'll note that the fingers metaphor is bad even for gender spectrum because a person with 4 fingers does have a significant handicap and so would by necessity need to be allowed to say that they don't have 10 fingers, whereas a person calling themself "xe/xim/xey" is. imo, most likely seeking attention. Note that this is distinct from when the spectrum is "male, female, or neutral," because as I've said previously, the person in the article was born biologically intersex and so has reason to identify as neutral. He's just part of a very small minority of people and the system shouldn't revolve around such a small minority.) Also, don't mis-attribute this as "my world," sobotnik made this metaphor in the first place and I was clarifying it to NeonpieDFTBA.
EDIT:
Also I want to clarify #4, I meant that I respect people's right to be trans. By your definition I may not respect them as people (though I do, I thoroughly respect people who aren't afraid to stand up for themselves. I wouldn't respect a trans person who was offended and upset and bottled it up rather than embracing their feelings as much as I would respect a trans person who wasn't afraid to go full-on MTF or FTM), but that's not what I was talking about in the first place.
Good, they shouldn't pander to Tumblr SJWs who yells there's more than 2 genders and gets triggered if you say otherwise.
[QUOTE=Nerfmaster000;52192131]Good, they shouldn't pander to Tumblr SJWs who yells there's more than 2 genders and gets triggered if you say otherwise.[/QUOTE]
And the award for most obtuse post of the day goes to...
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52192096]Also don't try to imply that I'm anti-trans, I went out of my way to say that I respect trans rights, I just personally don't approve of all the pronoun bullshit.[/QUOTE]
To respect trans rights, you have to respect trans people and their [I]right[/I] to be treated respectfully. You do not respect trans people if you "don't approve of pronoun bullshit". Your post as a whole is extremely bigoted and transphobic, with a dash of homophobia, and dancing around it by repeatedly claiming "but I [I]do[/I] respect their rights" isn't fooling anyone.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52192096]
People can be trans all they want, but I don't give a damn about gender recognition (like I said multiple times) and so I'll refer to them as I please
People can identify as what they're comfortable with, but that doesn't change what they actually are. [/quote]
okay first of all you come off as a pretty disgusting bigoted person
so trans women, for example, are just 100% male to you no questions asked even if their mind tells them they're female and their body is just a giant fuck you to them to the point where a lot of trans people just give up and kill themselves because of it
like damn i dont know what to say dude but you seriously have 0 idea what you're talking about and you somehow seem proud of the fact that you don't
if you create an "other" box then you have to build accommodations for those under the "other" box, ex build an "other gender" only jail like how we have male and female prisons and a bunch of other shit (assuming this exists in other countries, but ik it exists in the us) and i dont think theyll be happy with that either
for bathroom issues honestly theres no clean solutions and youll make at least one party not happy
tl;dr no clean solutions for any problem
[QUOTE=The Dovahneer;52192245]if you create an "other" box then you have to build accommodations for those under the "other" box, ex build an "other gender" only jail like how we have male and female prisons and a bunch of other shit (assuming this exists in other countries, but ik it exists in the us) and i dont think theyll be happy with that either
for bathroom issues honestly theres no clean solutions and youll make at least one party not happy
tl;dr no clean solutions for any problem[/QUOTE]
What party is upset by letting trans people use their preferred restroom? The answer is transphobes. It's a bathroom. You do your business. You don't look at other people's genitals, they don't look at yours, you don't ask, it's a [I]fucking bathroom[/I]. Just allowing trans people in the appropriate bathroom doesn't change any of this.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52192096]1. How many sensitized-to-sex cultures (that is, the west, such as France as mentioned in the article) can you list where, in a public restroom or in public at all, the average person is okay with being around exposed penises, breasts, and/or vaginas? It makes people uncomfortable. It's why bathrooms have stalls, and it's why it's awkward to look at somebody's cock in a urinal, and it's why genital flashing is illegal.[/quote]
Yes, it is awkward when you stare at other people's genitals! So don't do it! Trans people aren't gonna do it to you and if you're doing it to them that's your fault mate! There's no exposed penises, breasts, and/or vaginas in a bathroom, that's why there are stalls (like you said)! Trans men are going to be in the stalls in the men room, out of you sight so your perverted eye doesn't keep wandering over to their genitalia, and trans women are going to be in the stalls because women's bathrooms have stalls. Nothing is exposed and under any circumstances where it might be, why are you so fixated on their genitalia?
[QUOTE=Beetle179;52192271]What party is upset by letting trans people use their preferred restroom? The answer is transphobes. It's a bathroom. You do your business. You don't look at other people's genitals, they don't look at yours, you don't ask, it's a [I]fucking bathroom[/I]. Just allowing trans people in the appropriate bathroom doesn't change any of this.
Yes, it is awkward when you stare at other people's genitals! So don't do it! Trans people aren't gonna do it to you and if you're doing it to them that's your fault mate! There's no exposed penises, breasts, and/or vaginas in a bathroom, that's why there are stalls (like you said)! Trans men are going to be in the stalls in the men room, out of you sight so your perverted eye doesn't keep wandering over to their genitalia, and trans women are going to be in the stalls because women's bathrooms have stalls. Nothing is exposed and under any circumstances where it might be, why are you so fixated on their genitalia?[/QUOTE]
I never said trans people would do it to me, amigo! If you could find legit grounds to call me a bigot and a trans/homophobe, that'd be one thing, but you're taking what I'm saying completely out of context. Like literally, I don't think you've even read the entire conversation I've been having in this thread, and instead you just read that one post you quoted and called me a bigot. I said that people don't like being around stranger's genitals. Like, at all. Even behind a stall. But in a single gender bathroom, it's okay because guys understand each other like that, and the same with girls. They've all got the same junk, there's nothing awkward about it because we have things like stalls to keep it like that. But suddenly, when you've got people with one set of genitals in the same bathroom as the others, now it's awkward. That's all I said. I never said "an MTF trans person can't use the women's bathroom". I literally said, "it's based on what junk you've got." [b]What I was saying originally was relevant to the intersex/gender "neutral" shit from the OP. [/b]
BrickinHead said "all due respect i don't think it's an unreasonable request to respect the pronouns that a person prefers and let them use the bathroom they feel comfortable in. it's not difficult and something everyone should understand." This was in response to my first post, [b]which is the third post in the thread[/b], where I was talking about "gender neutrality" and not transgender-ism. Get your facts straight.He was implying that gender "neutral" people could use male or female restrooms regardless of their genital configuration. I said "No that's awkward" with the post you replied to just now and the one that that post was in response to. We were talking about gender "neutrality" because that is the topic of the OP.
Also previously you and Saturn called me a bigot and so forth. I'm not gonna lie, I legit typed a huge post about why you're wrong to do so, but I kept refreshing the preview to see how it looked and the page captcha'd me and I lost my post. I'm not gonna go to the lengths I went there, but essentially you're grasping at straws to call me a transphobe because you think that "I want to use my own words for somebody based on the sex they were born with," and "Trans people are weirdos and fags and I don't like them so we can't consider them people" are the same thing. I said the former. I believe that pronouns are bullshit because they're just words. I respect trans people's right to be whatever sex and gender they feel comfortable with, and I know they don't choose this. Nonetheless, I'm more comfortable referring to what I inherently see as a man/woman that is born feeling like they should be a woman/man.
I know this comparison won't be 1:1, so don't hold it THAT seriously, but I hope this helps you to see my point: Michael Jackson was born black. He had a skin disease (not to imply gender dysphoria is a disease) which caused his skin to turn white. This does not change the fact that he was African American. Translating that to the trans argument: Some people are born as male or female. They don't feel right like this, and so undergo various forms of therapy to change their sex, or to at least become comfortable with their gender in their body. This does not change the fact that they have the biology of the sex they changed from. Do you see what I mean?
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52192522]I said that people don't like being around stranger's genitals. Like, at all. Even behind a stall.[/QUOTE]
how in the fuck would you even know
besides ppl dont usually flash their genitalia even in bathrooms unless they really really desire to do so so uhhhh give it a rest
also yes you are a bigot and a transphobe by refusing to respect the identities of these people so yeah :)
Just add an "other" checkbox, really not that hard lol. Who actually gives a shit what gender you identify with other than bigots and sjws? Just leave em be, doesn't effect my life. Like yeah I'll probably think you're a bit of a jackass if you go on a tirade if I get your pronouns wrong when you're asking me to call you "Gu'th-xe/Xe'bes or whatever bullshit you made up, but I'm more than willing to say them/they because that's just basic human decency.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52192522]This does not change the fact that they have the biology of the sex they changed from. Do you see what I mean?[/QUOTE]
yeah sure okay its just chromosomes and genitalia!! totally not uneducated here
ever heard of hrt for example? and what about trans women growing boobs? are their chests still a biological male trait?
[QUOTE=Saturn V;52192210]okay first of all you come off as a pretty disgusting bigoted person
so trans women, for example, are just 100% male to you no questions asked even if their mind tells them they're female and their body is just a giant fuck you to them to the point where a lot of trans people just give up and kill themselves because of it
like damn i dont know what to say dude but you seriously have 0 idea what you're talking about and you somehow seem proud of the fact that you don't[/QUOTE]
I know what it means to be trans, I know that people don't choose to be trans. I understand transgender-ism, believe me. If I didn't, I wouldn't arguing about it in this thread right now.
Yeah, there are people who even kill themselves because they can't come to terms with their dysphoria. I literally mentioned in my second post in this thread ([url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1562924&p=52191621&viewfull=1#post52191621[/url]) that people with gender dysphoria have resources such as various forms of counseling, therapy, etc. to help them come to terms with their problem.
These people don't choose to have a problem, but they also can't choose what biological sex they are. A person born male will always be male. Like that wrestler I mentioned earlier, who was like 39 when he underwent hormone therapy and so wiped out his competition because he was essentially 100% man (bone, muscle, etc.-wise) against women. Even people who undergo therapy at a young age can't change the fact that they have X-sex DNA. Biologically, they are the sex they were born with.
I've been mentioning sex, not gender (or rather, I've been saying gender/sex, because gender is rooted in sex). A person can identify as being male or female gender, I never said they can't or shouldn't do that. I said that the legal system should identify them based on their biological sex, not their gender identity. You're going in the wrong direction in an effort to call me a bigot.
[QUOTE]You're going in the wrong direction in an effort to call me a bigot.[/QUOTE]
okay so uhhh you say youre talking about the legal system here but youve mentioned multiple times how you refuse to see them as what they identify as. doesnt that make you a little bigoted?
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52192550]Even people who undergo therapy at a young age can't change the fact that they have X-sex DNA. Biologically, they are the sex they were born with.[/QUOTE]
well could you tell me WHY that matters so much to you? like why the fuck would you care at all
[QUOTE=Saturn V;52192545]yeah sure okay its just chromosomes and genitalia!! totally not uneducated here
ever heard of hrt for example? and what about trans women growing boobs? are their chests still a biological male trait?[/QUOTE]
actually yeah, biological sex is just chromosomes and genitalia. mtf trans people can't give birth right? that's part of being sexually female, right? that's one thing that is unique to women, right? and ftm trans person couldn't impregnate another woman, right? sure a guy could grow breasts with hormone therapy, but that won't let him give birth now would it?
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52192566]sure a guy could grow breasts with hormone therapy, but that won't let him give birth now would it?[/QUOTE]
okay im done you really are one disgusting, close-minded person who can't be reasoned with
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52192566]actually yeah, biological sex is just chromosomes and genitalia. mtf trans people can't give birth right? that's part of being sexually female, right? that's one thing that is unique to women, right? and ftm trans person couldn't impregnate another woman, right? sure a guy could grow breasts with hormone therapy, but that won't let him give birth now would it?[/QUOTE]
So cis women who are infertile aren't actually women, then? Also ftms (I'm one, so I know what I'm talking about) aren't women. Don't call us women, and don't call trans women men.
Baconator 7, I am perturbed that you would purposefully misgender me if you were talking about me. Time and time again I lapse into a sense of false security on Facepunch that people won't intentionally disregard trans people's identities. Time and time again someone shows up to prove me wrong.
Please, Baconator, try to have some sympathy, friend. There is no support brought, no compassion felt from your refutation of an integral aspect of human socialization.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52191539]intersex people are people born with deformities, like those with a messed up foreskin or an extra nipple. [B]it's a very minor (often purely visual) thing that in most cases can be corrected with basic surgery. [/B]just because somebody is missing one of their testicles or a woman manages to grow a beard doesn't mean there's more than two sexes[/QUOTE]
now that's just plain ignorant, dawg. while not always the case, being intersex can still have an extreme effect on more than just looks, such as with hormones, or anatomy, it isn't just a woman with masculine features like facial hair or whatever the fuck (and some don't even consider that intersex).
and while surguries and treatment for intersex people [I]exist[/I], they aren't the most reliable and are considered harmful and too risky by [URL="http://www.jpagonline.org/article/S1083-3188(01)00111-5/fulltext"]quite[/URL] [URL="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1121738/"]a few[/URL] [URL="http://intersexday.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/intersex_issues_in_the_international_classification_of_diseases-cabral-carpenter-2014.pdf"]people.[/URL]
So I like to consider myself a pretty open minded person and while I've come to accept the reality of trans people into my life, I still find it difficult to accept this idea of gender fluidity. Now, don't get me wrong, if someone came up to me and earnestly requested to be identified with gender neutral pronouns or whatever, well sure thing bud. I'm not out to offend anyone and anyone should be able to identify as they please.
Buuuttt, I don't see the benefit to integrating these beliefs into legal systems and officially dismissing the two genders understanding completely. Maybe one day in a future super utopia where everyone is happy we'd be able to completely ignore gender and gender roles that people are inherently taught, but until then I really don't think there's much to benefit from legally acknowledging a third gender. Or a fourth, or a fifth, or an unlimited spectrum of them.
To me though, "gender fluidity/multiple genders" is a completely different topic/issue to transgenderism, and it seems to me that they actually having conflicting ideals from time to time. IE, a huge foundation of being trans is that you're born with your brain wired a different way to your body, yet a huge foundation of gender fluidity seems to be that there is a choice in your gender. This has always been a huge conflict for me, someone feel free to post or PM some info if there's an easy answer to this.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52192522]Nonetheless, I'm more comfortable referring to what I inherently see as a man/woman that is born feeling like they should be a woman/man.[/QUOTE]
cool then how about you tell us your gender and we'll fuck it up on purpose from now on [I]every time[/I] you post. like you say, they're just words!
ok, now that might not hurt you, though it sure as fuck hurts them. so if not, share your most sensitive aspect of yourself and we'll exploit it while saying it's "more comfortable for me this way!" take a while to think of what mere words would hurt you the worst.
nah we won't do that because it's disrespectful and shitty. seriously chew on this before continuing to misgender your fellow people for your own ~comfort~.
your trans race argument is poorly thought out and not applicable. i'd suggest dropping it.
the endless focus on biological sex that you and others seem to care so much about is simply offensive. it may surprise you to find out that all humans already have a robust understanding of two biological sexes, and that they actually don't need a refresher course. have you considered that it doesn't actually matter at all? is the concept of sex organs being separate from a brain organ really that difficult?
why is this even a court case? if someone is a guy who feels more comfortable as a girl I don't care, isnt my problem. just let them do it and then update their IDs with the correction. so silly this is even an issue
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52192522] I'm not gonna go to the lengths I went there, but essentially you're grasping at straws to call me a transphobe because you think that "I want to use my own words for somebody based on the sex they were born with," and "Trans people are weirdos and fags and I don't like them so we can't consider them people" are the same thing. I said the former. I believe that pronouns are bullshit because they're just words. I respect trans people's right to be whatever sex and gender they feel comfortable with, and I know they don't choose this. Nonetheless, I'm more comfortable referring to what I inherently see as a man/woman that is born feeling like they should be a woman/man. [/QUOTE]
In doing this you contribute to potentially suicidal depression and at best ruin someone day, at worst you are a small part in the reason someone kills themselves. Just think about that for a bit please.
Good they came to the conclusion, There are only 2 genders.
[QUOTE=freaka;52193268]Good they came to the conclusion, There are only 2 genders.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for completely ignoring all the arguments presented in the thread to make this comment.
WHAT does it even MATTER that some people want to be gender neutral? How does it effect anyone negatively?
[QUOTE=freaka;52193268]Good they came to the conclusion, There are only 2 genders.[/QUOTE]
The only gender I actually know exists is my own. I then trust that when other people tell me they feel the same way so I trust that we share a gender, and similarly women tell me they feel different and I trust that they aren't lying. Why when another group of people come along and say "I don't feel like either of those" why stop extending that trust and insist that they don't understand how they feel? Humans, much like pretty much everything else, are super complicated and there are shades of grey in sex, gender, chromosomes, reproduction ability, body presentation.
Literally whatever you pick you're either having people who don't have a category or forcing people into categories they obviously don't belong in unless you include a third "neither of those two" option and use discretion.
Honestly the day you turn around and realise that you don't need to force people into your shiny boxes and that if you just try and respect other people and don't try to make them fit how you want things to be you'll be so much happier.
[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;52193307]The only gender I actually know exists is my own. I then trust that when other people tell me they feel the same way so I trust that we share a gender, and similarly women tell me they feel different and I trust that they aren't lying. Why when another group of people come along and say "I don't feel like either of those" why stop extending that trust and insist that they don't understand how they feel? Humans, much like pretty much everything else, are super complicated and there are shades of grey in sex, gender, chromosomes, reproduction ability, body presentation.
Literally whatever you pick you're either having people who don't have a category or forcing people into categories they obviously don't belong in unless you include a third "neither of those two" option and use discretion.
Honestly the day you turn around and realise that you don't need to force people into your shiny boxes and that if you just try and respect other people and don't try to make them fit how you want things to be you'll be so much happier.[/QUOTE]
Yes the true horror of identifying as a male or a female is really hard. Especially hard when there are only two choices. Otherwise I can't wait until I can identify myself as a non existing object.
[QUOTE=freaka;52193329]Yes the true horror of identifying as a male or a female is really hard. Especially hard when there are only two choices. Otherwise I can't wait until I can identify myself as a non existing object.[/QUOTE]
To clarify, are we talking sex where you have people with vaginas and breasts who see themselves as girls but have XY chromosomes, or the opposite, or intersex people, or literally the million other ways all dichotomies fail in the end. Just because you fit into your box doesn't mean everyone does.
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