• France’s highest court refuses to recognise 'neutral gender' as a category
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[QUOTE=BrickInHead;52194404]most trans people that I know won't be offended if you use the wrong pronouns as long as you demonstrate at least a modicum of effort to correct that. In fact, someone making a mistake and then correcting themselves on pronouns (in my experience) actually makes trans people super happy because it shows that people are willing to treat them the way they want. There's a key difference between honest mistakes and what some users in this thread talk about.[/QUOTE] What Baconator was talking about, and a slip up are worlds apart. I've slipped up before, I correct myself and apologize and it's not an issue. It shouldn't be an issue. It's never been in my experience.
[QUOTE=Scratch.;52194396]This thread is a mess to read and I don't want to reply, but this was necessary.[/QUOTE] clarify?
[QUOTE=Marbalo;52194458]Would any of you be okay with the state adopting and enforcing the use of a wider range of gender pronouns? If so, would not referring to someone by their preferred pronoun, theoretically, be considered hate speech? I dont really understand where you draw the line. Arguments that stem from emotion "just dont be a dick about it dood" are really nice and all, but they offer no concise explanation to what some of you are proposing. What if someone refuses to use the correct gender pronouns you, or the state, imposes on them?[/QUOTE] Who has said literally anything about this? No one. Not a one. You are imagining a boogeyman to get mad about. No one is talking about hate speech or punishment. This is just about social conventions and politeness.
[QUOTE=Arc Nova;52194368]yeah right in this thread..? I love BrickinHead but I don't think the poster he is replying to here even meant to be offensive[/QUOTE] and I heretofore have liked sobotnik but considering that I literally opened my post with "my partner prefers they/them" and that posting as an activity is far more deliberate than speech, I see that as an intentional misgender, not an accidental one. That was further, in my view, exacerbated by the rest of sobotnik's post, wherein they associated non-binary gender, and by extension my partner, with rape and incest. That's pretty offensive in my book, dunno about you! If sobotnik didn't intend to be offensive they certainly failed in that endeavor in my perspective. if sobotnik advises otherwise that it was accidental I will accept that, but I definitely read it as intentional.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;52194404]most trans people that I know won't be offended if you use the wrong pronouns as long as you demonstrate at least a modicum of effort to correct that. In fact, someone making a mistake and then correcting themselves on pronouns (in my experience) actually makes trans people super happy because it shows that people are willing to treat them the way they want. There's a key difference between honest mistakes and what some users in this thread talk about with feeling g they have some strange "right" to misgender people[/QUOTE] "trans people's rights are more important than those of anybody else. some people understand trans people but aren't entirely comfortable with them, and those people are bigots because they don't have the same pronoun-usage rights as trans people, because i know a trans person and so i take it personally" [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52194467]Who has said literally anything about this? No one. Not a one. You are imagining a boogeyman to get mad about. No one is talking about hate speech or punishment. This is just about social conventions and politeness.[/QUOTE] every time somebody tries to extend the argument to something, you get mad and tell them that they're talking about something that doesn't exist. step outside yourself for a moment and try to imagine hypothetical situations beyond what you're talking about. [editline]6th May 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=BrickInHead;52194510][b]and I heretofore have liked sobotnik but considering that I literally opened my post with "my partner prefers they/them" and that posting as an activity is far more deliberate than speech, I see that as an intentional misgender, not an accidental one.[/b] That was further, in my view, exacerbated by the rest of sobotnik's post, wherein they associated non-binary gender, and by extension my partner, with rape and incest. That's pretty offensive in my book, dunno about you![/QUOTE] also that's bullshit. when you type, do your fingers do their own thing or are you typing out words that you think in your head? he saw FTM and thus, in presumably hasty typing because he doesn't care enough to become that involved in the argument as to type an essay, wrote "her" instead of "they". this is what i'm talking about, people are literally getting offended over the smallest mistakes or, in my case, minor bullshit and acting like it's the end of human rights for trans people [editline]6th May 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Scratch.;52194396]This thread is a mess to read and I don't want to reply, but this was necessary.[/QUOTE] so you've contributed nothing to the discussion and made the mess bigger. congrats!
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52194513]"trans people's rights are more important than those of anybody else. some people understand trans people but aren't entirely comfortable with them, and those people are bigots because they don't have the same pronoun-usage rights as trans people, because i know a trans person and so i take it personally"[/QUOTE] the fuck are you on about lmao is it really hard for you to understand what brick is saying, or do you perceive the act of not being a complete dick about someone's preferred pronouns really fucking difficult
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52194513]"trans people's rights are more important than those of anybody else. some people understand trans people but aren't entirely comfortable with them, and those people are bigots because they don't have the same pronoun-usage rights as trans people, because i know a trans person and so i take it personally"[/QUOTE] You absolutely have the same rights as trans people when it comes to pronoun usage. I'll respect your pronouns to the best of my ability, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the same treatment in return. [editline]6th May 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Baconator 7;52194513] also that's bullshit. when you type, do your fingers do their own thing or are you typing out words that you think in your head? he saw FTM and thus, in presumably hasty typing because he doesn't care enough to become that involved in the argument as to type an essay, wrote "her" instead of "they". this is what i'm talking about, people are literally getting offended over the smallest mistakes or, in my case, minor bullshit and acting like it's the end of human rights for trans people[/QUOTE] bullshit? you have the capacity to review your response, edit it, and post from there. don't try to argue that entering text and submitting it is less deliberate than speech. that's just foolish, come on. you can only edit your speech pre-emptively. text can be edited during typing, after finishing a response but before posting it, and even further can be edited later. so sorry, no, I disagree. if sobotnik saw FTM and then hastily typed a response they should've used "he/him" then.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;52194510]and I heretofore have liked sobotnik but considering that I literally opened my post with "my partner prefers they/them" and that posting as an activity is far more deliberate than speech, I see that as an intentional misgender, not an accidental one. That was further, in my view, exacerbated by the rest of sobotnik's post, wherein they associated non-binary gender, and by extension my partner, with rape and incest. That's pretty offensive in my book, dunno about you! If sobotnik didn't intend to be offensive they certainly failed in that endeavor in my perspective.[/QUOTE] I really don't think he meant to refer to "them" as "her" is all I'm saying, not bringing up the other points. Even if you stated it in a previous post. A guy online talks about a relationship most people will automatically think "girlfriend" Hell, I almost did it in this very post. Unless Sobotnik seen it and was like "no fuck that I'm calling his partner a her!" I doubt he did that but if he did then shame on you sobotnik you rude.
[QUOTE=Arc Nova;52194542]I really don't think he meant to refer to "them" as "her" is all I'm saying, not bringing up the other points. Even if you stated it in a previous post. A guy online talks about a relationship most people will automatically think "girlfriend" Hell, I almost did it in this very post. Unless Sobotnik seen it and was like "no fuck that I'm calling his partner a her!" I doubt he did that but if he did then shame on you sobotnik you rude.[/QUOTE] it was the start of the post he responded to arc.
Jesus I'm all over the place here, I'm gonna do myself a favor and reread this thread.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;52194531] bullshit? you have the capacity to review your response, edit it, and post from there. don't try to argue that entering text and submitting it is less deliberate than speech. that's just foolish, come on. you can only edit your speech pre-emptively. text can be edited during typing, after finishing a response but before posting it, and even further can be edited later. so sorry, no, I disagree. if sobotnik saw FTM and then hastily typed a response they should've used "he/him" then.[/QUOTE] it absolutely is bullshit. it is literally the most minor thing and a reasonable person wouldn't get so mad over him presumably using the wrong pronoun by accident
Oh boy, do I have quite a bit to catch up on. Baconator, I'll be blunt-you're a bigot because you outright refuse to respect the pronouns of trans people and act like your delicate "comfort" gives you the right to make us feel like shit, all while trying to weasel out of your prejudice by saying some cheap words about "respecting all transgender people". You may have a shred of human decency in that you don't tell us to die or call us slurs, but don't think for a second that you're not a bigot. You are constantly misgendering trans people and then playing the victim. You've deliberately called trans women men and trans men women all in the name of doing what you're "most comfortable with". You can do that because you'll never get why being misgendered hurts. You're cisgender; being called the wrong pronouns is an inconvenience at worst. You're a bigot because even though you "understand" transgender people, you will disregard our identities and what we know about ourselves because you think you know better. How can you actually believe you're respecting transgender people while simultaneously policing their gender to align with whatever makes you feel good? (edit: this has nothing to do with accidental pronoun misuse, only the deliberate misgendering. Also I fucked up a word)
[QUOTE=Limed00d;52194527]the fuck are you on about lmao is it really hard for you to understand what brick is saying, or do you perceive the act of not being a complete dick about someone's preferred pronouns really fucking difficult[/QUOTE] well he was considered retarded for a good portion of his life
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52194558]it absolutely is bullshit. it is literally the most minor thing and a reasonable person wouldn't get so mad over him presumably using the wrong pronoun by accident[/QUOTE] And most trans people don't get mad over someone accidentally using the wrong pronoun, especially if they're only just meeting someone. You'll be greeted with a "oh...sorry would you mind using x instead of y?". But repeatedly using the wrong pronoun, and especially if you're doing so on purpose, is going to make them feel invalidated, and in that case they might get mad (and have every right to tbh). But what's more likely is you'll just increase the amount of negative feelings towards themselves (that are usually quite high anyway thanks to the whole gender dysphoria thing). Trans people aren't the screechy fat women and men /pol/ keeps insisting are real. They're genuinely vulnerable people with a collection of mental health issues that compound each other (after all; dysphoria is generally seen alongside depression and anxiety). Basic decency really isn't so hard to provide, and makes everybody's life that little bit better.
[QUOTE=GreySky;52194567]Oh boy, do I have quite a bit to catch up on. Baconator, I'll be blunt-you're a bigot because you outright refuse to respect the pronouns of trans people and act like your delicate "comfort" gives you the right to make us feel like shit, all while trying to weasel out of your prejudice by saying some cheap words about "respecting all transgender people". You may have a shred of human decency in that you don't tell us to die or call us slurs, but don't think for a second that you're not a bigot. You are constantly misgendering trans people and then playing the victim. You've deliberately called trans women men and trans men women all in the name of doing what you're "most comfortable with". You can do that because you'll never get why being misgendered hurts. You're cisgender; being called the wrong pronouns is an inconvenience at worst. You're a bigot because even though you "understand" transgender people, you will disregard our identities and what we know about ourselves because you think you know better. How can you actually believe you're respecting transgender people while simultaneously policing their gender to align with whatever makes you feel good? (edit: this has nothing to do with accidental pronoun misuse, only the deliberate misgendering. Also I fucked up a word)[/QUOTE] how hypocritical is it to expect people to act the way you want them to just because you are different from them? am i supposed to disregard my personal comfort and bend over to your will because you feel different?
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52194603]how hypocritical is it to expect people to act the way you want them to just because you are different from them? am i supposed to disregard my personal comfort and bend over to your will because you feel different?[/QUOTE] "Bend over to your will" my ass. It's called showing somebody respect. Calling me by the wrong gender is a shitty thing to do, and while I can't force you to refer to me by the correct pronouns, it reflects poorly on you. It shows that you only care about yourself. And guess what? Being misgendered worsens my mental health, especially my gender dysphoria-can you claim the same when you're misgendered? Our situations are wildly unbalanced. For fuck's sake, calling me a man won't ruin your life. You can deal with a little bit of discomfort, let's be real.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52194603]how hypocritical is it to expect people to act the way you want them to just because you are different from them? am i supposed to disregard my personal comfort and bend over to your will because you feel different?[/QUOTE] Why does referring to somebody by their preferred pronouns (after all they're ~just words~~ :~))) impact your personal comfort in any way? Y'know, short of you being a horrendous bigot who cannot accept that, yes, people are in fact different from yourself.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52194603]how hypocritical is it to expect people to act the way you want them to just because you are different from them? am i supposed to disregard my personal comfort and bend over to your will because you feel different?[/QUOTE] I'm as different from you as any other woman or person of another race that you walk past on the street. I'm sorry it makes you uncomfortable to refer to people with the appropriate pronouns. Maybe if you reversed that thought process you would understand why trans people are uncomfortable when they're addressed with the wrong pronouns.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52194603]how hypocritical is it to expect people to act the way you want them to just because you are different from them? am i supposed to disregard my personal comfort and bend over to your will because you feel different?[/QUOTE] You make being polite sound like a literal affront to your existence. You're acting like a baby.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52194631]You make being polite sound like a literal affront to your existence. You're acting like a baby.[/QUOTE] so i'm acting like a baby when i can't help the way i feel about myself and the world... but trans people are perfectly fine in doing it and i have to put them over myself and sacrifice my personal integrity in so doing. [editline]6th May 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=reedbo;52194623]I'm as different from you as any other woman or person of another race that you walk past on the street. I'm sorry it makes you uncomfortable to refer to people with the appropriate pronouns. Maybe if you reversed that thought process you would understand why trans people are uncomfortable when they're addressed with the wrong pronouns.[/QUOTE] i know why they're uncomfortable, and so we can both be uncomfortable together. it's not the end of the world.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52194738]so i'm acting like a baby when i can't help the way i feel about myself and the world... but trans people are perfectly fine in doing it and i have to put them over myself and sacrifice my personal integrity in so doing.[/QUOTE] holy shit dude.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52194738]so i'm acting like a baby when i can't help the way i feel about myself and the world... but trans people are perfectly fine in doing it and i have to put them over myself and sacrifice [b]my personal integrity[/b] in so doing. [editline]6th May 2017[/editline] i know why they're uncomfortable, and so we can both be uncomfortable together. it's not the end of the world.[/QUOTE] How the fuck does it affect your integrity? To confirm, you don't care if you seriously hurt another person in a way which can lead to catastrophic consequences. You don't care if your actions cause people I love and care about and other posters in this thread to have panic attacks, worsen their already awful mental health and feel even less accepted, comfortable and safe than they already do so that you, someone who has never had to deal with issues comparable to them (no, your whole special school story isn't the same as average trans person) can continue to 'maintain your personal integrity'? [QUOTE]i know why they're uncomfortable, and so we can both be uncomfortable together. it's not the end of the world.[/QUOTE] No, no you don't.
forums user baconator 7, do you really have problems being a decent person to others in general?
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52194738]so i'm acting like a baby when i can't help the way i feel about myself and the world... but trans people are perfectly fine in doing it and i have to put them over myself and sacrifice my personal integrity in so doing.[/QUOTE] Seriously, not being a dick means sacrificing your personal integrity? Christ that's dramatic, you act like using correct pronouns for people is some sort of life-ruining experience.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52194738]i can't help the way i feel about myself and the world...[/QUOTE] except you can and youre just unwilling, at the expense of people who actually can't help who they are times like these i wish we still banned for bigotry!
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52194738] i know why they're uncomfortable, and so we can both be uncomfortable together. it's not the end of the world.[/QUOTE] What do you hope to accomplish with this kind of mentality?
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52194738]so i'm acting like a baby when i can't help the way i feel about myself and the world... but trans people are perfectly fine in doing it and i have to put them over myself and sacrifice my personal integrity in so doing. [editline]6th May 2017[/editline] i know why they're uncomfortable, and so we can both be uncomfortable together. it's not the end of the world.[/QUOTE] Maybe you've heard of this, maybe not. It's called "The Golden Rule". Treat others as you wish to be treated. From how you act, I can disrespect you, your personal space, your integrity, YOU in general because from all I can tell, you act like this and want to be treated like this.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52194783]Maybe you've heard of this, maybe not. It's called "The Golden Rule". Treat others as you wish to be treated. From how you act, I can disrespect you, your personal space, your integrity, YOU in general because from all I can tell, you act like this and want to be treated like this.[/QUOTE] The way I treat people is that i refer to them as the way they're born. I'd definitely be vaguely offended if somebody called me a man (btw gtanoofa before you start making assumptions about me, or well now since you've ALREADY done that, I'll have you know that I'm a bi woman thank you very much) but I'd expect them to do the same to me. And all the same, I don't (in fact NOBODY does) treat every single person i meet with the utmost respect that I possibly can, and I'm reasonable enough to expect that not everyone in the world will treat me 100% with respect. Like i said, its not the end of the world if somebody doesn't give you the maximum possible amount of respect. Reasonable people understand tha other people can be like that.
I bet you're real fun at parties. Maybe don't interact with people if you can't treat them appropriately.
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