• France’s highest court refuses to recognise 'neutral gender' as a category
    255 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Aphtonites;52194858]The whole non-binary thing honestly seems more like a fashion trend among women and an easy excuse for them to feel oppressed than an actual identity.[/QUOTE] Thank you for your opinion
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52194843]The way I treat people is that i refer to them as the way they're born. I'd definitely be vaguely offended if somebody called me a man (btw gtanoofa before you start making assumptions about me, or well now since you've ALREADY done that, I'll have you know that I'm a bi woman thank you very much) but I'd expect them to do the same to me. And all the same, I don't (in fact NOBODY does) treat every single person i meet with the utmost respect that I possibly can, and I'm reasonable enough to expect that not everyone in the world will treat me 100% with respect. Like i said, its not the end of the world if somebody doesn't give you the maximum possible amount of respect. Reasonable people understand tha other people can be like that.[/QUOTE] "Vaguely offended" There's your problem. Being misgendered doesn't affect you in any significant way. For others, including myself, being misgendered all the damn time by countless people is soul-crushing. It makes you feel like your identity doesn't matter, and that who you are doesn't matter at all. Real shocking, I know, how knowing you are a certain gender but having everyone refer to you as the wrong one (oftentimes intentionally) can be detrimental to someone's mental health. I'm also not surprised to hear you admit you're disrespectful, and I can say this: someone who thinks they are the arbiter of my own identity really doesn't deserve any sort of respect.
holy shit baconator just give it up dude, go outside and meet some real life trans people.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52194843]The way I treat people is that i refer to them as the way they're born. I'd definitely be vaguely offended if somebody called me a man (btw gtanoofa before you start making assumptions about me, or well now since you've ALREADY done that, I'll have you know that I'm a bi woman thank you very much) but I'd expect them to do the same to me. And all the same, I don't (in fact NOBODY does) treat every single person i meet with the utmost respect that I possibly can, and I'm reasonable enough to expect that not everyone in the world will treat me 100% with respect. Like i said, its not the end of the world if somebody doesn't give you the maximum possible amount of respect. Reasonable people understand tha other people can be like that.[/QUOTE] You clearly don't treat people with respect if you refuse to call them by what they request when the request is as simple as "he" "she" "They".
I have this friend. He used to run guns, drugs, and money for one of the big gangs up here. He was an enforcer and trafficker for them. Yes, I know how unrelated this sounds. Bear with me. This guy, has probably killed people in his past, and has definitely put people in the hospital. He's a genuinely scary dude in that respect. I've walked into a bar with him, and had the bar go quiet because they know who just walked in. It's fucking scary. The reason I bring up this friend is because, despite being a mid 40's 250 lbs plus 6 foot 4 nightmare of a human being to deal with when he's pissed off, I've heard him express genuine distress when someone misgenders another person around them. Yeah, I know, shocking right? Baconater, I say this because I've watched said friend actually do the objectively wrong thing, and hurt someone for misgendering another person. Someone was being a dick to a stranger in the bar, and my friend who doesn't really fear anything, beat that guy. You may feel safe as a woman, but you know what happens when you play stupid games in public? You eventually are going to win a stupid prize. I don't think it's right, I don't think it's justified. I just know people like my friend exist and you should be wary of what you say in public places. If you feel that disrespecting other people is your perogative, and you feel disrespected when someone prevents you from disrespecting others, fine, but you will find out the world has 0 reason to respect [B]you.[/B]
[QUOTE=Beetle179;52194067]The same psychological and physical differences that say women are predisposed to being good dishwashers and men are predisposed to being good with powertools? Nah[/QUOTE] Uh no, the same psychological and physical differences that determine the genders differences in spatial awareness and upper body strength. Way to strawman the shit out of what he's saying.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;52195075](trying to turn "they" into singular, etc.)[/QUOTE] "Them"/"Their"/"They" has always had a singular usage. It's not some modern phenomenon. Nobody is arguing for new pronouns, stop falling for /pol/ propaganda or listening to genuine fringe lunatics that have no power anyway. Stop acting like someone requesting to be referred to by their own, actual identity is some abhorrent crime against yourself. But this thread is doing Gods work, it's outing bigots left right and centre!
[QUOTE=Marbalo;52195075]That's when it becomes your problem. You being offended at others misgendering you is meaningless to the debate and should not in any way force others to accommodate your preferences. You cannot expect the entire world or even your immediate surroundings to grant you your wishes just because you want them to, or for some reason, operate under the assumption that you're entitled to something that is beyond acceptable means of common courtesy. The reason many people are against new pronouns is because it imposes something on them by another group of people, and it undermines language itself (trying to turn "they" into singular, etc.). More people would be inclined to reconsider if you presented a good enough reason that doesn't rest on your feelings being damaged or your personal view of what it means to be courteous. Also, those who argue against new pronouns aren't necessarily transphobic, because the two issues are separate of one another as hard as it is to imagine, and trying to somehow guilt-trip, pander to emotions and throw around "detrimental to mental health", "literally crying" to try and convince anyone of anything [I]does not work[/I].[/QUOTE] They're not asking for new pronouns.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52195031]I have this friend. He used to run guns, drugs, and money for one of the big gangs up here. He was an enforcer and trafficker for them. Yes, I know how unrelated this sounds. Bear with me. This guy, has probably killed people in his past, and has definitely put people in the hospital. He's a genuinely scary dude in that respect. I've walked into a bar with him, and had the bar go quiet because they know who just walked in. It's fucking scary. The reason I bring up this friend is because, despite being a mid 40's 250 lbs plus 6 foot 4 nightmare of a human being to deal with when he's pissed off, I've heard him express genuine distress when someone misgenders another person around them. Yeah, I know, shocking right? Baconater, I say this because I've watched said friend actually do the objectively wrong thing, and hurt someone for misgendering another person. Someone was being a dick to a stranger in the bar, and my friend who doesn't really fear anything, beat that guy. You may feel safe as a woman, but you know what happens when you play stupid games in public? You eventually are going to win a stupid prize. I don't think it's right, I don't think it's justified. I just know people like my friend exist and you should be wary of what you say in public places. If you feel that disrespecting other people is your perogative, and you feel disrespected when someone prevents you from disrespecting others, fine, but you will find out the world has 0 reason to respect [B]you.[/B][/QUOTE] Oh so now you're threatening me? Way to stay the big man in the discussion pal. You have to resort to telling a woman she's gonna be killed by a drug dealer because she doesn't call trans people by the pronoun they prefer. Stop taking yourself so seriously, if you can't stay civil then quite frankly you should stop posting. Its not appropriate for this forum.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52195125]Oh so now you're threatening me? Way to stay the big man in the discussion pal. You have to resort to telling a woman she's gonna be killed by a drug dealer because she doesn't call trans people by the pronoun they prefer. Stop taking yourself so seriously, if you can't stay civil then quite frankly you should stop posting. Its not appropriate for this forum.[/QUOTE] Yeah, that's not what I said and you're further showing your hand by refusing to actually talk about this like an adult would. You keep jumping to whatever you think someone else is saying because you refuse to read what they actually said. You refused to read what I actually said there. That much is clearer than day. Just like your bigotry is as clear as day. You refuse to be polite because that's too much to ask of you.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52195137]Yeah, that's not what I said and you're further showing your hand by refusing to actually talk about this like an adult would. You keep jumping to whatever you think someone else is saying because you refuse to read what they actually said. You refused to read what I actually said there. That much is clearer than day. Just like your bigotry is as clear as day. You refuse to be polite because that's too much to ask of you.[/QUOTE] You legit said that one day I'm gonna meet somebody like your pal, who beats "disrespectful" people. Thats a threat, don't try to backpedal out of it.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52195144]You legit said that one day I'm gonna meet somebody like your pal, who beats "disrespectful" people. Thats a threat, don't try to backpedal out of it.[/QUOTE] No it isn't a threat, you can insist it is until you're blue in the face but all that shows is you literally don't know what a threat is defined as I'm telling you outright, if you want to disrespect people as much as you clearly want to, do so at your own peril. I'll never hurt you, I even stated there(In the post you didn't fucking read) that it was the wrong thing to do. What I am telling you is that there are people who don't care about that like I do. You can say "OH HUMANABYSS IS THREATENING MEEEEEE!" but I'm not. I'm telling you information that you may not be aware. You clearly have no respect for other people despite your instance that you do. If you constantly act like the garbage you've shown here, then yeah, I'm not sure you're going to have the most peaceful life ever. Someone will confront you about being a dick.
[QUOTE=srobins;52195054]Uh no, the same psychological and physical differences that determine the genders differences in spatial awareness and upper body strength. Way to strawman the shit out of what he's saying.[/QUOTE] That isn't gender. Those are physiological differences between male and female brains (e: spatial awareness -- I'm ignoring the "upper body strength" because hormones don't determine gender). Gender is cultural.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52195157]No it isn't a threat, you can insist it is until you're blue in the face but all that shows is you literally don't know what a threat is defined as I'm telling you outright, if you want to disrespect people as much as you clearly want to, do so at your own peril. I'll never hurt you, I even stated there(In the post you didn't fucking read) that it was the wrong thing to do. What I am telling you is that there are people who don't care about that like I do. You can say "OH HUMANABYSS IS THREATENING MEEEEEE!" but I'm not. I'm telling you information that you may not be aware. You clearly have no respect for other people despite your instance that you do. If you constantly act like the garbage you've shown here, then yeah, I'm not sure you're going to have the most peaceful life ever. Someone will confront you about being a dick.[/QUOTE] "I have this friend who has killed people... If you keep being disrespectful to people, somebody's going to hurt you." If you didn't want that to be a threat, you wouldn't have used those phrases in the same post. Call me a bigot all you want but what you just did, and what you're doing now, is taking it way too far.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;52195135]I dont think referring to a singular person as "They" has ever been a thing up until recent years, particularly in the context of transpolitics. Correct me if I'm mistaken. And nobody is acting like it's some abhorrent crime, stop making this strawnman. It's no big deal, at the end of the day it's a bunch of words and pronouns, however when you emotionally charge those words and turn it into some weapon wielded only by ignorant bigots that's when it stops being "just some words" and starts being "emotionally damaging barbs". You cant downplay the importance of pronouns and then turn around and say that misgendering someone is a serious offense on their person.[/QUOTE] Whilst the requested use is as far as I know somewhat new, referring to an individual of unknown gender as they has always been pretty normal. It was less common than other similar languages where it served as the formal form of you but it's used as a more polite word than it for someone of no or unknown gender. Also, to be clear, when I say pronouns are no effort or 1 syllable or whatever, that's what it is to the person saying it. To the person on the receiving end, it's potentially panic attack inducing (I have known this to occur). This is why it's so absurd to me that people think that their 'discomfort' at using a slightly different word is comparable to the real suffering they inflict by not doing so.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52195173]"I have this friend who has killed people... If you keep being disrespectful to people, somebody's going to hurt you." If you didn't want that to be a threat, you wouldn't have used those phrases in the same post. Call me a bigot all you want but what you just did, and what you're doing now, is taking it way too far.[/QUOTE] Informing you that there are scary people is taking it too far? Yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about [editline]6th May 2017[/editline] I'm pretty sure, if you did take the time to read what I said, you can read that I, his friend, am also terrified of said person. That I consider what he's done to be wrong and bad things. I don't really get how you can claim to read something and have done such a poor job at it. [editline]6th May 2017[/editline] This is about being a dick in general because he's done it for other reasons like "A person groped at a woman who was having a bad night" or "A person threw a pool ball at another person", "A person stole from another person". These are all just instances of being a disrespectful git, and that there are people in the world, not myself, but there are people who take disrespect pretty poorly.
abyss, you should just drop it. baconator has shown no interest in cultivating a proper discussion on the topic, it's not worth the effort at this point
[QUOTE=Limed00d;52195195]abyss, you should just drop it. baconator has shown no interest in cultivating a proper discussion on the topic, it's not worth the effort at this point[/QUOTE] You're probably right. She's determined to disrespect other people and I should just let the consequences for that play out in the future.
[QUOTE=NapyDaWise;52191573]I'd rather like that we remove gender from ID cards and stuff than we add a whole new lot of categories.[/QUOTE] gender on ID cards are important for identification purposes in case of medical or other similar types of emergencies
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;52195211]gender on ID cards are important for identification purposes in case of medical or other similar types of emergencies[/QUOTE] Wouldn't/Shouldn't that be sex for medical purposes?
[QUOTE=Thlis;52195218]Wouldn't/Shouldn't that be sex for medical purposes?[/QUOTE] Yes, all the ID cards I've seen are labeled as such.
Honestly what medical emergencies require immediate knowledge of sex? Just curious.
[QUOTE=Thlis;52195218]Wouldn't/Shouldn't that be sex for medical purposes?[/QUOTE] i'm talking about on scene emergencies and situations where you may not be conscious to give information and all they have to go off of is your ID. it is terrible to think about, but it also helps in IDing a body if there is a bad accident and you're rendered recognizable by other means. [editline]6th May 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;52195230]Honestly what medical emergencies require immediate knowledge of sex? Just curious.[/QUOTE] men and women get different dosages of different medicines which are tuned to the physiological differences between them, if you're not conscious being able to immediately identify your biological sex can save seconds necessary to save lives
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;52195235]i'm talking about on scene emergencies and situations where you may not be conscious to give information and all they have to go off of is your ID. it is terrible to think about, but it also helps in IDing a body if there is a bad accident and you're rendered recognizable by other means.[/QUOTE] I'm not arguing against having it on an ID Card. I'm just saying for medical purposes then it should probably be sex and not gender.
[QUOTE=Thlis;52195242]I'm not arguing against having it on an ID Card. I'm just saying for medical purposes then it should probably be sex and not gender.[/QUOTE] true, i should have said sex in my initial post instead of gender
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52194843]I'll have you know that I'm a bi woman thank you very much[/QUOTE] so if every time someone referred to you they said "that butch dyke faggot" would you just be all ~sticks n stones~ youre the most unreasonable supposed lgbt person ive ever experienced
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;52194127]because they dont always align. if they always aligned there would be no distinction.[/QUOTE] They don't need to align, and there shouldn't need to be a distinction, imo. Biological sex & the way you act as a human being shouldn't be locked together, I think you should be able to be male but not display typical male traits and vice versa, I just don't agree with the way of categorising it as a different gender/sex. I will always consider trans people as their biological sex, because I don't believe that someone born with a certain sex has to fulfil the social role commonly associated with it. (aka, it's a social problem not a trans people problem, if that's unclear) I may have to explain my thoughts in a bit of a longer post at some point, but I think separating sex and gender causes more problems than it solves.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;52195075]That's when it becomes your problem. You being offended at others misgendering you is meaningless to the debate and should not in any way force others to accommodate your preferences. You cannot expect the entire world or even your immediate surroundings to grant you your wishes just because you want them to, or for some reason, operate under the assumption that you're entitled to something that is beyond acceptable means of common courtesy. The reason many people are against new pronouns is because it imposes something on them by another group of people, and it undermines language itself (trying to turn "they" into singular, etc.). More people would be inclined to reconsider if you presented a good enough reason that doesn't rest on your feelings being damaged or your personal view of what it means to be courteous. Also, those who argue against new pronouns aren't necessarily transphobic, because the two issues are separate of one another as hard as it is to imagine, and trying to somehow guilt-trip, pander to emotions and throw around "detrimental to mental health", "literally crying" to try and convince anyone of anything [I]does not work[/I].[/QUOTE] Hey, if people want to be transphobic jackasses, I can't stop them. But it still reflects poorly on their own personality. Seriously? Wanting the correct pronouns is "entitlement" and "beyond the acceptable means of common courtesy"? I'm not asking to be called xir or whatever, I simply want to be referred to by my actual gender so I don't feel like subhuman garbage. Isn't that common courtesy, not making your fellow humans feel like shit? Or are only cis people allowed to be referred to by their real gender? Again, I'm not asking for a new fucking pronoun, just call me "he". Call trans women "she" and if people ask for "they", use that. It's not hard, it won't ruin your life, and it'll help other people. And what's the point of arguing for it if people don't have enough empathy to consider "it'll help my mental health and self-esteem" a good enough reason for them to show me the most basic level of respect. I also never said anything about crying, so whatever. Using the correct pronouns is showing respect, and people have the right not to be misgendered, but it's fairly obvious we don't agree even though I never argued for new pronouns in the first place. All I ever argued was that refusing to use someone's proper pronouns in the name of "well making people feel like shit makes me comfortable" is an awful thing to do.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;52195235]men and women get different dosages of different medicines which are tuned to the physiological differences between them, if you're not conscious being able to immediately identify your biological sex can save seconds necessary to save lives[/QUOTE] this is so overplayed it hurts because obviously the dosage required to kill a headache for a man will just kill a woman right?? also what physiological differences please could you tell me? especially if you're on hrt im pretty sure your body functions like that of the sex you're transitioning to
[QUOTE=Paul-Simon;52195360]They don't need to align, and there shouldn't need to be a distinction, imo. Biological sex & the way you act as a human being shouldn't be locked together, I think you should be able to be male but not display typical male traits and vice versa, I just don't agree with the way of categorising it as a different gender/sex. I will always consider trans people as their biological sex, because I don't believe that someone born with a certain sex has to fulfil the social role commonly associated with it. (aka, it's a social problem not a trans people problem, if that's unclear) I may have to explain my thoughts in a bit of a longer post at some point, but I think separating sex and gender causes more problems than it solves.[/QUOTE] the thing is as much as the world might be a better place if gender norms didnt exist and it wasn't even a concept, it's not gonna happen and people want to identify that way. so why not compromise and be respectful?
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