TIME- "Exclusive: Marvel’s New Iron Man Is a Black Woman" - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50662717]no but see the thing is that Raiden existed solely to be not as good as Solid Snake like the reason you play as him is specifically because you don't want to play as him and you'd rather be Snake[/QUOTE] Fair point. [QUOTE]Exact same thing here. You're taking a character that people like, and replacing them with a character that people don't give a fuck about, and you're telling them "care about this one now". Except unlike with MGS2, there is no greater purpose or message. It's just annoying.[/QUOTE] But is this actually what they're doing now? As I best understand it Stark is still going to be a very significant supporting character, nobody is saying to stop caring about him. They're going to coexist. And while it might not be as well thought out as MGS2 (not everyone can be Hideo Kojima, especially not Bendis) you dont have any evidence to flat out say "there is no greater purpose or message" when there could very well be one.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;50662733]Fair point. But is this actually what they're doing now? As I best understand it Stark is still going to be a very significant supporting character, nobody is saying to stop caring about him. They're going to coexist. And while it might not be as well thought out as MGS2 (not everyone can be Hideo Kojima, especially not Bendis) you dont have any evidence to flat out say "there is no greater purpose or message" when there could very well be one.[/QUOTE] in the case that this is all well written and great then awesome The reason people are upset is that it could very well be terrible, like female thor. Because it doesn't seem like they've really recognized why female thor was fucking awful.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50662742]in the case that this is all well written and great then awesome The reason people are upset is that it could very well be terrible, like female thor. Because it doesn't seem like they've really recognized why female thor was fucking awful.[/QUOTE] Yeah I agree female thor was shit, but my point is that people should never be upset about something having the POTENTIAL to be bad. That's kneejerk and stupid.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;50662748]Yeah I agree female thor was shit, but my point is that people should never be upset about something having the POTENTIAL to be bad. That's kneejerk and stupid.[/QUOTE] when someone doesn't recognize that they made a mistake, and then do something very similar to the mistake they just made for the same reason they made the mistake, then I don't think it's entirely uncalled for to be concerned that they're making the same mistake again like before they fucked up I was fine with the idea of female thor and all that what bothers me is the total lack of self awareness on marvel's part

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50662756]when someone doesn't recognize that they made a mistake, and then do something very similar to the mistake they just made for the same reason they made the mistake, then I don't think it's entirely uncalled for to be concerned that they're making the same mistake again like before they fucked up I was fine with the idea of female thor and all that what bothers me is the total lack of self awareness on marvel's part[/QUOTE] Yeah thats a reasonable concern to have. Thats different than shit like this [QUOTE=Buck.;50656459]Watch them make Wolverine into a Native American elderly lady next.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Buck.;50656459]Watch them make Wolverine into a Native American elderly lady next.[/QUOTE] Theres a difference between "im concerned with marvels lack of self awareness and blatant pandering due to their shit writing" and "wow a black ironman??? whats next, sjw tranny genderfluid native american negaman replacing superman??"

[QUOTE=Duck M.;50662772]Yeah thats a reasonable concern to have. Thats different than shit like this Theres a difference between "im concerned with marvels lack of self awareness and blatant pandering due to their shit writing" and "wow a black ironman??? whats next, sjw tranny genderfluid native american negaman replacing superman??"[/QUOTE] There's a point where people are a bit exasperated by the continuing relatively hackneyed efforts of a white guy in his late 30s writing characters he often really doesn't understand

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50662814]There's a point where people are a bit exasperated by the continuing relatively hackneyed efforts of a white guy in his late 30s writing characters he often really doesn't understand[/QUOTE] Then why are the arguments against this character the exact same as the ones that were used against FemThor before it was even revealed that they were shit with these sorts of things Why are there some of the exact same comments that are used for shit that is actually well written and/or has no prior history of being pandery and hamfisted (See: Undertale) Is it that much of a stretch to think that some people are just flat out opposed to having more "unrealistic" diversity in comics and media

Don't mind this, but if she isn't called iron maiden I'm gonna be pissed

[QUOTE=Duck M.;50662835]Then why are the arguments against this character the exact same as the ones that were used against FemThor before it was even revealed that they were shit with these sorts of things Why are there some of the exact same comments that are used for shit that is actually well written and/or has no prior history of being pandery and hamfisted (See: Undertale) Is it that much of a stretch to think that some people are just flat out opposed to having more "unrealistic" diversity in comics and media[/QUOTE] No, they dislike the writer. They dislike the forced attempts (keyword being "forced") at introducing diversity because they've been historically badly written, they don't have a problem with minority super heroes and numerous people have stated as such. If the introduction of diversity was better written they wouldn't have a problem with it. People like characters like Miles Morales, the black spiderman, and Ms.Marvel, the female muslim superhero, because they're well-written characters with their own established and distinct identities separate from that of an already established character. That's good writing. Please don't keep pushing this point, we just went through about 10 pages to get to this: [QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;50662571]Tbh, I should've left this conversation minute 0. I'm frequently having to readdress my points, and no one's opinion is ever going to change on the issues. I'm the only person arguing now, most people have left to do other things and I should probably do the same. Here's my post to end all posts. - Going off by the arguments in here, [B]there are no people who are upset simply because the new iron man is now a black woman.[/B] - Going off by the arguments in here, no one in this thread is a racist or a bigot. - [B]I have misinterpreted the intentions of the jokes in here.[/B] If I post in here again, call me out.[/QUOTE] You can judge the quality of the writing and argue that it isn't as bad as some people say, but don't misinterpret people here by arguing that people are secretly racist because they think a comic is bad when it is demonstrably not the case. Just because people have different opinions on stories than you and they dislike something because they feel it has forced storytelling does not mean they have problems with any kind of diversity in media. Just to be clear, I'm not responding to ROFLBURGER's post, I'm quoting it as an example of the conversation we just had.

Why are people having trouble understanding that people expect it to be shit because the person writing it has a history of shit writing?

[QUOTE=Zyler;50663048]No, they dislike the writer. They dislike the forced attempts (keyword being "forced") at introducing diversity because they've been historically badly written, they don't have a problem with minority super heroes and numerous people have stated as such. If the introduction of diversity was better written they wouldn't have a problem with it. People like characters like Miles Morales, the black spiderman, [B]and Ms.Marvel, the female muslim superhero,[/B] because they're well-written characters with their own established and distinct identities separate from that of an already established character. That's good writing.[/QUOTE] sure [QUOTE=Steel & Iron;50656494]-Thor is now a woman, even going so far as to change the inscription on Mjölnir to "if she be worthy" -Ms. Marvel is now a Muslim girl -While some other people commenting that Sam Wilson is currently the mainline Captain America, I let it slide for now, as he is an older established character that had previous connections to Steve. I just wish he wasn't be used as a framing device for Steve's new "plot developments" -The current Hulk is Amadeus Cho, an Asian [sp]and if the Civil War II leaks are proven true Banner will not survive the event[/sp] -Bendis' pet Spider-Man Miles is Black-Latino While my weakness of being a hetrosexual Anglo-Saxton identifying male is probably talking louder than rational thought process, this seems incredibly contrived. Nearly every new character that Marvel has pushed to the forefront for the past couple of years save for maybe Squirrel Girl and that cat lady I can't remember the name of is something to the tune of "A pre-existing property but now this aspect of them is different" usually being their race or gender change. On top of that it's usually a brand new character, except Miles on a technical level, X-23 and Sam.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Duck M.;50663139]sure[/QUOTE] So, what's the point you're making? The idea that a single poster thinks the writing of a character is contrived means that everyone in this thread is secretly racist? And is it possible that the one poster you quoted doesn't have an issue with diversity itself but rather how forced they view it to be? Is it really impossible for people have nuanced opinions aside from "I like this because it has minorities in it" and "I don't like this because I hate minorities". And did you miss all the posts that were supportive of the characters I listed? The people in this thread liked or disliked the characters because of how well they are written, not because of whether they are minorities or not. What about me? Do you think I'm being disingenuous? Do you think I'm secretly racist? What's your opinion on the new Ghostbusters movie?

I thought Kamala Khan made for a great Ms. Marvel, and I thought Miles Morales was a fine Spiderman. On the flip side, I thought Iceman being revealed as gay felt pretty shoehorned (being that Jean Grey just literally points out to him that he's gay). Its not the diversity that's really the issue, so much as its the ability of the writer to craft a compelling narrative to suit the character. It certainly doesn't help that the emphasis of these announcements are not on the introduction of these characters themselves, but on their ethnicity/religion/sexual orientation.

[QUOTE=Kinversulath;50663233] On the flip side, I thought Iceman being revealed as gay felt pretty shoehorned (being that Jean Grey just literally points out to him that he's gay).[/QUOTE] Funny, that was also by Brian Michael "Jews In Space" Bendis.

[QUOTE=Anderan;50663067]Why are people having trouble understanding that people expect it to be shit because the person writing it has a history of shit writing?[/QUOTE] Because it's racist to hate on minirity character, no matter the reason of hate.

[QUOTE=Zyler;50663165]So, what's the point you're making? The idea that a single poster thinks the writing of a character is contrived means that everyone in this thread is secretly racist? And is it possible that the one poster you quoted doesn't have an issue with diversity itself but rather how forced they view it to be?[/QUOTE] Dont be fucking dense because you always are on these kinds of things, it was a single example of a larger issue from the posters ITT and a counter-argument to your point that even characters like Miles Morales are well received [QUOTE]Is it really impossible for people have nuanced opinions aside from "I like this because it has minorities in it" and "I don't like this because I hate minorities". And did you miss all the posts that were supportive of the characters I listed? The people in this thread liked or disliked the characters because of how well they are written, not because of whether they are minorities or not.[/QUOTE] You must be being not reading any of my posts if you honestly think that I'm thinking of this in a black and white manner and dont understand "nuanced opinions", like good lord man did you just purposefully ignore everything else I said earlier on in the page [QUOTE]What about me? Do you think I'm being disingenuous? Do you think I'm secretly racist?[/QUOTE] Hahahahaha come the fuck on dude, what a dumb question [QUOTE]What's your opinion on the new Ghostbusters movie?[/QUOTE] Ill give it a fair chance and wait for reviews to see if its any good. My initial impressions are unfavorable and I'm wary of pandering and making jokes and references solely to the characters' genders but at the same time I think there ARE people that arent giving it a fair shot and are denouncing it solely on the fact that its not the old characters they're used to and that the cast is all female (funny how that works huh, sounds familiar)

I think we all get your point that: [QUOTE=Duck M.;50662748]Yeah I agree female thor was shit, but my point is that [B]people should never be upset about something having the POTENTIAL to be bad.[/B] That's kneejerk and stupid.[/QUOTE] But I would disagree. Marvel has had a mixed track record with these maneuvers, as has Bendis in particular. Not to mention that we're now looking at a second relaunch of Iron Man in less than a year. Maybe people are all wrong and the transiton will be smooth and well-written, or maybe it'll be bungled and those who have low expectations now will be proven correct.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;50663320] Hahahahaha come the fuck on dude, what a dumb question[/QUOTE] Why is it a dumb question? You assume an entire thread of people are being disingenuous when they give general reasons for disliking a writer that happens to write some minority characters, which means they are obviously secretly racist and anyone who doesn't think so is dense. By that logic, why wouldn't I be included in that group of people you're generalizing? I think you're cherry picking individual posts (which you misinterpreted anyway) and using them to paint a large brush across a large number of people. No matter how many people explain that they dislike the writer and not the characters themselves simply for being minorities, you refuse to believe it. Are those people lying? If that's the case, then I must be lying too right? I must be a secret racist too and so must everyone in this thread that holds any other opinion besides yours. That logic doesn't really check out. I like this idea of people calling me dense because I refuse to generalize people. Another guy called me dense and "not getting it" for not agreeing with the super obvious fact that all Muslims are fundamentally violent and antithetical to western civilization. Maybe it's not that I'm dense for not understanding such an obvious fact, but that your making an implicit assumption that, while obvious to you, is not so much to other people. [QUOTE=Kinversulath;50663361]I think we all get your point that: But I would disagree. Marvel has had a mixed track record with these maneuvers, as has Bendis in particular. Not to mention that we're now looking at a second relaunch of Iron Man in less than a year. Maybe people are all wrong and the transiton will be smooth and well-written, or maybe it'll be bungled and those who have low expectations now will be proven correct.[/QUOTE] I think this post summarizes my point better than I could. Like I said before, you could make an argument about the quality of the writing not being as bad as people think it is and that people should give it a chance, that's reasonable. However, when you argue that people are being disingenuous and are closet racists for disliking a writer for having a history of bad writing, you cross the line into massive generalization and misrepresentation of people's opinions. Ultimately, the comic will come out and the people who actually care will find out if it has good or bad writing. Either the people with low expectations or the people giving it a chance will win out, but nobodies a bad person or a closeted racist simply for thinking either way.

[QUOTE=Primigenes;50656577]The problem is that this shit keeps making it harder and harder to take Marvel seriously. They keep replacing characters to drum up headlines and to pander to certain audiences and its disgusting. It's incredibly disingenuous and its offensive. Not even to say that all of the current comics are bad but just that this kind of random stuff when given the current state of Marvel is getting really annoying to see. Nothing feels like it can be taken seriously because the whole of Marvel seems to be operating alongside some agenda revolving around diversity quotas. [t]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/b--UZoF5_RC2oyvYLDYBbmMjtvtemX-jCDWfbufg5hMwGGvP89w55ghVwr0AqjcOaSrkQVB6oBc7=s0[/t] [t]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/BOQn8VyQYdzj1TKKHW7tGc5WY5uCREP-Mq8qCgttYDFWL7cEINgAQQj_GbtF-w6KG302JkJfUEXl=s0[/t][/QUOTE] That first strip is garbo, but it also looks like something being marketed exclusively to tween girls. I'm not seeing the problem with the second one, though? Like, I don't know the context of this conversation, but it seems like a pretty normal and natural conversation between friends about some the challenges and/or insecurities they face. Are you honestly upset just because the black character mentioned that he has felt alienated by the way some people have treated him because of his skin color? I mean, damn near every black person I know could share similar experiences. Racism still exists, is thriving even, and while I can understand being a bit tired of having it "shoved down your throat," I have to question why seeing it mentioned at [I]all[/I] is distasteful for you, especially given the fact that experiences like that can have profound impacts on a person's sense of self. All I'm seeing in that panel is [I]character development.[/I]

[QUOTE=Zyler;50663414]Why is it a dumb question? You assume an entire thread of people are being disingenuous when they give general reasons for disliking a writer that happens to write some minority characters, which means they are obviously secretly racist and anyone who doesn't think so is dense.[/QUOTE] You're misinterpreting what I said. I'm not assuming that people giving good well thought out reasons as to why they're discontent with this decision are being disingenuous and closeted racists, I'm assuming that the people who are making the same lame, boring quips about character diversity (see: half of the first page) might have some issues with it in the first place. These same tired comments are regurgitated over and over again almost every single time theres a black, latino, asian, gay, trans, bi, lesbian, etc. etc. character in media. It's happened before with FemThor before we knew how awful the writing and pandering would actually be, it happened with Ghostbusters when the only thing we knew about it was that it was going to feature an all female cast, it's happened with stuff that was actually well written and had no prior history or evidence of pandering whatsoever, and it's often the same people that spout this stuff on a regular basis. It's a dumb question because you already know the answer to it and are asking a disingenuous question in order to paint me the fool. I'm not stupid. [QUOTE]By that logic, why wouldn't I be included in that group of people you're generalizing? I think you're cherry picking individual posts (which you misinterpreted anyway) and using them to paint a large brush across a large number of people.[/QUOTE] I didnt read your argument with roflburger so I cant say for sure, to give a general idea though I generally agreed with the stuff people like AaronM202 and Mr. Scorpio were saying. These arent the people I'm talking about though. [QUOTE]No matter how many people explain that they dislike the writer and not the characters themselves simply for being minorities, you refuse to believe it. Are those people lying? If that's the case, then I must be lying too right? I must be a secret racist too and so must everyone in this thread that holds any other opinion besides yours.[/QUOTE] Again your posts just make me continue to question if you've actually read anything I've posted or are just assuming what my argument is based on what other people have argued in the past. If you actually had any semblance of reading comprehension skills or hell, basic literacy you'd know that I UNDERSTAND that people dislike the writer and consider it a legitimate concern and you'd know that I dont think these same people just dislike the minorities. Like come on dude, this shouldnt be so hard for you. [QUOTE]I like this idea of people calling me dense because I refuse to generalize people.[/QUOTE] No, I'm calling you dense because you're being dense.

Why does it feel like a chunk of the people in this thread don't know what they're talking about, know the context of the comics/MARVEL's godawful situation/are involved in stuffing arguments in people's mouths. [B]Edit:[/B] Does anyone want to point out the issue that a [B]fifteen year old[/B] girl who got a [B]full ride scholarship[/B] at MIT(similar to Tony Stark) managed to make an [B]Iron man suit[/B] (Obvious departure) in a [B]college dorm[/B] within [B]a couple of days[/B] from shit she [B]stole/scrounged up from around the campus[/B]? [T]http://www.readcomics.net/images/manga/invincible-iron-man-2015/9/7.jpg[/T] [T]http://www.readcomics.net/images/manga/invincible-iron-man-2015/9/9.jpg[/T] That's a pretty good looking suit of armor to be made from just scraps and stuff taken from around the MIT campus. Especially for a [B]first[/B] suit (Not denying that maybe she could have looked at some leaked blueprints or schematics downloaded off the internet somehow, or maybe she's some kind of genius reverse engineer [B]at the age of 15[/B], but still, that'd have meant other people [I](not including villains because they obviously have done this or similar plots at some point or another)[/I] would be inspired to do the same shit, yes?)

The whole "but shes only 15" part seems to be an odd gripe to have imo, there have been 15 year olds to go to MIT. There have been 14 year olds that have gotten bachelors degrees and 18-20 year olds that have gotten doctorates. Hell Erik Demaine, who got his bachelors at 14, became a full fledged professor at MIT when he was 20. I dont really think the whole young supergenius thing is that unrealistic, especially for a comic book where that sort of thing is sort of a trope (especially at exaggerated tech-wizard levels)

My gripe with the young supergenius shit is the fact that she's sorta going through Tony's path, but she's inherently better and stronger than him in every way because -No crippling heart problem -She made her own semi-modern looking Iron Man Armor, whereas Tony's first suit was a clunky looking tank armor thing Not to mention the whole "Young Supergenius" schtick has always came off as Mary Sueish and self serving to me, so when that's applied to a [B][U]ALL NEW ALL DIFFERENT[/U][/B] legacy character, it reeks of fishiness to me

The thing that strikes me as odd about that is that in the promo art she does have an arc reactor in her chest so who knows. I'd really reserve judgement on the merits of her character until we, you know, actually know more about her character

[QUOTE=LondierX;50663664] -She made her own semi-modern looking Iron Man Armor, whereas Tony's first suit was a clunky looking tank armor thing[/QUOTE] lets be fair, that was a prototype that was made completely from scratch, and didn't he build it from a damned cave? you really can't beat his resourcefulness when you use that as an argument. [editline]7th July 2016[/editline] I mean, doing it from a college dorm is one thing but come on, a cave :v:

[QUOTE=Duck M.;50663674]The thing that strikes me as odd about that is that in the promo art she does have an arc reactor in her chest so who knows. I'd really reserve judgement on the merits of her character until we, you know, actually know more about her character[/QUOTE] That's a shirt... Disregard that, it's glowing, I'm a fucking idiot

[QUOTE=J!NX;50663679]lets be fair, that was a prototype that was made completely from scratch, and didn't he build it from a damned cave? you really can't beat his resourcefulness when you use that as an argument. [editline]7th July 2016[/editline] I mean, doing it from a college dorm is one thing but come on, a cave :v:[/QUOTE] Yeah the circumstances are completely different, she was able to build hers completely at her own leisure and entirely uninhibited and also wasn't working entirely from scratch. And this is all assuming that you cant just chalk up the visual differences to the artistic and stylistic choices and attributes of the time.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;50663697]Yeah the circumstances are completely different, she was able to build hers completely at her own leisure and entirely uninhibited and also wasn't working entirely from scratch. And this is all assuming that you cant just chalk up the visual differences to the artistic and stylistic choices and attributes of the time.[/QUOTE] that plus, Stark literally had a gun to his head, while dying, that's fucking impressive. exactly the opposite circumstance. *goingfromthemovie

[QUOTE=J!NX;50663699]that plus, Stark literally had a gun to his head, while dying, that's fucking impressive. exactly the opposite circumstance. *goingfromthemovie[/QUOTE] In the comics the situation was still pretty dire. He had shrapnel in his heart, was gravely injured, and was in captivity. He WAS given a small laboratory in being forced to make a weapon for his captor but still, not really the most ideal circumstances to work with.

[QUOTE=LondierX;50663527]Why does it feel like a chunk of the people in this thread don't know what they're talking about, know the context of the comics/MARVEL's godawful situation/are involved in stuffing arguments in people's mouths. [B]Edit:[/B] Does anyone want to point out the issue that a [B]fifteen year old[/B] girl who got a [B]full ride scholarship[/B] at MIT(similar to Tony Stark) managed to make an [B]Iron man suit[/B] (Obvious departure) in a [B]college dorm[/B] within [B]a couple of days[/B] from shit she [B]stole/scrounged up from around the campus[/B]? [T]http://www.readcomics.net/images/manga/invincible-iron-man-2015/9/7.jpg[/T] [T]http://www.readcomics.net/images/manga/invincible-iron-man-2015/9/9.jpg[/T] That's a pretty good looking suit of armor to be made from just scraps and stuff taken from around the MIT campus. Especially for a [B]first[/B] suit (Not denying that maybe she could have looked at some leaked blueprints or schematics downloaded off the internet somehow, or maybe she's some kind of genius reverse engineer [B]at the age of 15[/B], but still, that'd have meant other people [I](not including villains because they obviously have done this or similar plots at some point or another)[/I] would be inspired to do the same shit, yes?)[/QUOTE] Is it just me or does that art look pretty bad? Where is that from?