TIME- "Exclusive: Marvel’s New Iron Man Is a Black Woman" - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Zeke129;50660145]The Zelda series, for the most part, uses completely different characters each time.[/QUOTE] Actually they're the same characters

[QUOTE=bunguer;50664002]Is it just me or does that art look pretty bad? Where is that from?[/QUOTE] The official Marvel Iron Man (2015-2016) Comics for the Road to Civil War II! (They're traced 3D models with photoshop filters. You can kinda tell, but Marvel's delectable quality issues are for another thread altogether) Edit: Oh what the Hell, this is kinda off topic, but I may as well drop these here.: Civil War II: Kingpin [T]http://www.readcomics.net/images/manga/civil-war-ii-kingpin/1/12.jpg[/T] [T]http://www.readcomics.net/images/manga/civil-war-ii-kingpin/1/16.jpg[/T] Patsy Walker: Hellcat [T]http://www.readcomics.net/images/manga/patsy-walker-a.k.a.-hellcat-2016/2/16.jpg[/T] [T]http://www.readcomics.net/images/manga/patsy-walker-a.k.a.-hellcat-2016/6/13.jpg[/T] (These are the same series, Different issues) Gwenpool Holiday Special [T]http://www.readcomics.net/images/manga/gwenpool-holiday-special-2016/1/1.jpg[/T] [T]http://www.readcomics.net/images/manga/gwenpool-holiday-special-2016/1/3.jpg[/T]

What went on in this thread wasnt just your ordinary shitfling, i noticed two distinct categories of arguments that people brought. First we have the standard, relative to the topic arguments. These discussed why they liked or disliked the decision, including criticisms or defenses of the writers, speculation, explanation and examples regarding why the comic would be bad or good. Then we had bully arguments, where people made arguments relative to other posters, mainly revolving around accusing people of insecurity, making(thinly veiled) racism accusations, and generally attempting to shame people for criticizing a change in something they're a fan of. Most people who do this dont actually engage in the thing they are criticizing someone else for caring about, as is standard for any schoolyard bully. You dont understand or care about thing so you need to target other people who do. The current wave of bullies tends to be really big into anything that involves race or gender because its so easy to use. Sure, these people dont hate minorities, but they freak out whenever someone criticizes something or someone that happens to be related to, or be, a minority. Whatever you want to call that behavior, it certainly isnt the ideal, where people could talk about skin color the same way they do eye color. Lets be frank here, people freak about sonic's arms changing color, fans are perfectly justified questioning why an existing character is getting modified, retconned or replaced for whatever arbitrary reason. You need to rethink how you approach your personal prejudices before you approach other peoples prejudices, if you think the above argument is acceptable.

[QUOTE=bunguer;50664002]Is it just me or does that art look pretty bad? Where is that from?[/QUOTE] It's done using a 3D modeling program. It basically shows you that no one actually cares about the comic since it's dirt cheap to make. Here's how you do a good new non-white character mantling another without the awfulness that is this new Iron man: [img]http://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/mg/9/a0/5318ca7b2e78e/background.jpg[/img] [thumb]http://www.tmstash.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/d118a58cb394bf0b3ff8a05828ff29eb.jpg[/thumb] Never brings into question why Ghost Rider isn't white and does a lot of interesting things with the Ghost Rider brand

Real question is why we can't just have a minority or gay or trans or whatever character without people seeing it as something [I]weird.[/I] I mean seriously, do you guys realize how fucking stupid this entire argument is? This character could be the most well written, nuanced character on the planet and she'll never be recognized as anything more than "the black ironman" because of the color of her skin. The story isn't even out yet, we don't know how this character is introduced or developed, and people are already mad when we know nothing more about the character besides that shes the new ironman and what she looks like. I think that says a lot, doesn't it? Racism will never be solved until minorities become something mundane and "just another person" so to speak, without being seen as diversity hires or special snowflakes.

[QUOTE=_Pai;50664468]Real question is why we can't just have a minority or gay or trans or whatever character without people seeing it as something [I]weird.[/I] I mean seriously, do you guys realize how fucking stupid this entire argument is? This character could be the most well written, nuanced character on the planet and she'll never be recognized as anything more than "the black ironman" because of the color of her skin. The story isn't even out yet, we don't know how this character is introduced or developed, and people are already mad when we know nothing more about the character besides that shes the new ironman and what she looks like. I think that says a lot, doesn't it? Racism will never be solved until minorities become something mundane and "just another person" so to speak, without being seen as diversity hires or special snowflakes.[/QUOTE] not reading the thread should be a bannable offense

I'm tired of the whole comic book industry at this point. Fresh stories need fresh characters, but whoever's in charge is too afraid to sell anything without a recognizable brand name. Instead, they make arbitrary changes to established canons, pissing off both old fans who watch as their beloved stories are wiped clean, and new fans who are still expected to have an encyclopedia of background information to even understand the first issue of a new series. I'm mostly venting my own frustrations with the industry, but shit like this makes me feel a bit more justified every time it happens.

[QUOTE=Arc Nova;50664681]not reading the thread should be a bannable offense[/QUOTE] I'm sorry I don't have the time to read 14 pages of blather and dumb arguments. Some of us actually have things to do. [editline]7th July 2016[/editline] dumb snipes should be a bannable offense

[QUOTE=_Pai;50664821]I'm sorry I don't have the time to read 14 pages of blather and dumb arguments. Some of us actually have things to do. [editline]7th July 2016[/editline] dumb snipes should be a bannable offense[/QUOTE] "I don't feel like reading a whole argument but I'm going to contribute anyways" This is you

Can't we just have hero titles be passed from person to person? Retirement, disability, death, missing, etc leading to somebody else taking up the mantle. And if somebody dies, then make it damn near impossible to bring em back. Years later we can be reminiscent of "that one guy" that was an awesome smartmouth Wolverine, or "that one girl' who was a really dark creepy Hulk. Seems better than just shoehorning these characters in for the smallest of reasons. Make it compelling

[QUOTE=_Pai;50664821]I'm sorry I don't have the time to read 14 pages of blather and dumb arguments. Some of us actually have things to do. [editline]7th July 2016[/editline] dumb snipes should be a bannable offense[/QUOTE] So you just come in after the whole thread, miss characterize everyone arguing one side and expect some kind of well rationed response? No one wants to retread those pages so if you don't want to just be an assumptive ass about people's views, then either read the thread or don't generalize all our views incorrectly. Is that really that hard

[QUOTE=_Pai;50664821]I'm sorry I don't have the time to read 14 pages of blather and dumb arguments. Some of us actually have things to do. [editline]7th July 2016[/editline] dumb snipes should be a bannable offense[/QUOTE] It's not my fault you've repeated the same shit every other nitwit who hasn't read the thread has already posted long before you and has been addressed Your argument is dumb regurgitated bullshit and it's not my fault you're too lazy to read the thread (or even the last couple of pages) Maybe don't post next time?

[QUOTE=Arc Nova;50664994]It's not my fault you've repeated the same shit every other nitwit who hasn't read the thread has already posted long before you and has been addressed Your argument is dumb regurgitated bullshit and it's not my fault you're too lazy to read the thread (or even the last couple of pages) Maybe don't post next time?[/QUOTE] I went back and read through the arguments and it only devolved into random strawmen and open insults on both sides, so no, the argument is not resolved, so get off your high horse. Even now you're just throwing insults at me. [editline]7th July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50664981]So you just come in after the whole thread, miss characterize everyone arguing one side and expect some kind of well rationed response? No one wants to retread those pages so if you don't want to just be an assumptive ass about people's views, then either read the thread or don't generalize all our views incorrectly. Is that really that hard[/QUOTE] I'm not generalizing anyone's view. I'm giving my own opinion, which is that racism and prejudice and whatnot will never be resolved until we stop looking at minority characters as "pandering" or diversity inclusions.

[QUOTE=_Pai;50665070]I went back and read through the arguments and it only devolved into random strawmen and open insults on both sides, so no, the argument is not resolved, so get off your high horse. Even now you're just throwing insults at me. [editline]7th July 2016[/editline] I'm not generalizing anyone's view. I'm giving my own opinion, which is that racism and prejudice and whatnot will never be resolved until we stop looking at minority characters as "pandering" or diversity inclusions.[/QUOTE] which is ignoring the entirety of the arguments and assuming the only reason people don't want these characters is their diversity so yeah, you're generalizing us all why does a 30 year old jewish guy get so much defense for writing BADLY WRITTEN characters where he uses their race as a token factor of who they are often demonstrating he has no idea what he's writing about or has no connection to the characters he's writing?

[QUOTE=_Pai;50665070]I'm not generalizing anyone's view.[/QUOTE] Literally two posts ago [QUOTE=_Pai]I mean seriously, do you guys realize how fucking stupid this entire argument is? This character could be the most well written, nuanced character on the planet and she'll never be recognized as anything more than "the black ironman" because of the color of her skin. [/quote] Not generalizing anything...riiiight

Like you admitted you didn't read the thread, so how could you know who you're generalizing when you're not even really able to remember that you JUST made a really judgemental statement

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50665126] why does a 30 year old jewish guy get so much defense for writing BADLY WRITTEN characters where he uses their race as a token factor of who they are often demonstrating he has no idea what he's writing about or has no connection to the characters he's writing?[/QUOTE] well that's not OK either imo. If you have a character who is a certain race, using their race as their only character feature is lazy writing and in itself racist also because it essentially minimizes people to their ethnicity. But, we don't know that's how it will turn out. This is what the writer said about her character: [QUOTE] One of the things that stuck with me when I was working in Chicago a couple of years ago on a TV show that didn’t end up airing was the amount of chaos and violence. And this story of this brilliant, young woman whose life was marred by tragedy that could have easily ended her life — just random street violence — and went off to college was very inspiring to me. I thought that was the most modern version of a superhero or superheroine story I had ever heard. And I sat with it for awhile until I had the right character and the right place. As we’ve been slowly and hopefully very organically adding all these new characters to the Marvel Universe, it just seemed that sort of violence inspiring a young hero to rise up and act, and using her science acumen, her natural-born abilities that are still raw but so ahead of where even Tony Stark was at that age, was very exciting to me. [/QUOTE] I don't see race mentioned in any of that.

Have you read anything from the writer at all [editline]7th July 2016[/editline] do you even read comics or anything?

[QUOTE=Arc Nova;50665237]Have you read anything from the writer at all [editline]7th July 2016[/editline] do you even read comics or anything?[/QUOTE] Who's generalizing now?

[QUOTE=_Pai;50665325]Who's generalizing now?[/QUOTE] he asked a question because you're giving the writer far more credit than precedence would allow no one in this thread who's argued on "your" side even fucking reads comics, so it gets pretty hard to give a shit in a certain way. Yes, this IS pandering, and the people it's aiming towards will never be the audience, so why is something I enjoy being fucked with for people who don't enjoy and don't want to even be involved with it? If Bendis wasn't writing this, I'd give it a shot, but he is, so we do KNOW how it'll play out.

[QUOTE=_Pai;50665325]Who's generalizing now?[/QUOTE] Those aren't generalizing statements, those are two direct questions that you failed to answer.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50665378]he asked a question because you're giving the writer far more credit than precedence would allow no one in this thread who's argued on "your" side even fucking reads comics, so it gets pretty hard to give a shit in a certain way. Yes, this IS pandering, and the people it's aiming towards will never be the audience, so why is something I enjoy being fucked with for people who don't enjoy and don't want to even be involved with it? If Bendis wasn't writing this, I'd give it a shot, but he is, so we do KNOW how it'll play out.[/QUOTE] I find it really, really funny how you guys accuse me of generalizing and then turn around and do it yourselves. And when called out on it, you don't deny it, but instead double down on the hypocrisy and build an elaborate straw man. You're arguing that comics as a medium is essentially restricted to a certain group of people, which is laughable and screams of elitism. If books and movies and TV can all appeal to wide audiences, including people who don't like the same things you do, why can't comics? Not everything is about you.

Honest to god people who are upset about this need to relax. It's like being mad that Hamilton is black on Broadway. But that [I]isn't historically accurate and it goes against his character![/I] Okay? And? It's a different character. In the same suit. Theatre has been bending gender and race for literal decades, and comics have been doing this for an absurdly long time as well - why care? 90% of you won't even buy the comic or read it. It's a different character under the same costume. Does a black guy wearing a Santa costume offend you because he's not portraying the character right? He's ruining the character, by wearing a costume and not being the person the costume is iconic of? Come on.

[QUOTE=Arc Nova;50665394]Those aren't generalizing statements, those are two direct questions that you failed to answer.[/QUOTE] I do read comics, but I mostly like old ones from the silver and bronze ages, and I don't keep up with the ongoing stuff, so I'm not too familiar with this guy's work.

[QUOTE=_Pai;50665449]I find it really, really funny how you guys accuse me of generalizing and then turn around and do it yourselves. And when called out on it, you don't deny it, but instead double down on the hypocrisy and build an elaborate straw man. You're arguing that comics as a medium is essentially restricted to a certain group of people, which is laughable and screams of elitism. If books and movies and TV can all appeal to wide audiences, including people who don't like the same things you do, why can't comics? Not everything is about you.[/QUOTE] No I want more diversity in comics. I don't want that to be fake. It currently is fake. Get more coloured writers and the better stories will come. Honestly, you've been rude as fuck since post 1. I'm done with you. [editline]7th July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=.Isak.;50665450]Honest to god people who are upset about this need to relax. It's like being mad that Hamilton is black on Broadway. But that [I]isn't historically accurate and it goes against his character![/I] Okay? And? It's a different character. In the same suit. Theatre has been bending gender and race for literal decades, and comics have been doing this for an absurdly long time as well - why care? 90% of you won't even buy the comic or read it. It's a different character under the same costume. Does a black guy wearing a Santa costume offend you because he's not portraying the character right? He's ruining the character, by wearing a costume and not being the person the costume is iconic of? Come on.[/QUOTE] Come on. There's nothing wrong with the concept of new characters taking up the mantle but as history and precedent shows Bendis won't do it well and will use her race as a token characteristic as he always does making the writing paradoxically more fucking racist due to how shallow it is

[QUOTE=_Pai;50665449]I find it really, really funny how you guys accuse me of generalizing and then turn around and do it yourselves..[/QUOTE] please quote and reply where I have generalized and I will happy to address it tia

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50665501]No I want more diversity in comics. I don't want that to be fake. It currently is fake. Get more coloured writers and the better stories will come. Honestly, you've been rude as fuck since post 1. I'm done with you.[/QUOTE] I like how you talk about "colored people" like they're some sort of oddity. As a minority, I'd be really insulted if I was told I was being hired to write comic books about "colored people" as if they were completely alien and not just regular people. Are you even listening to yourself right now.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;50665450]Honest to god people who are upset about this need to relax. It's like being mad that Hamilton is black on Broadway. But that [I]isn't historically accurate and it goes against his character![/I] Okay? And? It's a different character. In the same suit. Theatre has been bending gender and race for literal decades, and comics have been doing this for an absurdly long time as well - why care? 90% of you won't even buy the comic or read it. It's a different character under the same costume. Does a black guy wearing a Santa costume offend you because he's not portraying the character right? He's ruining the character, by wearing a costume and not being the person the costume is iconic of? Come on.[/QUOTE] yeah but why cant she be something other than ironmans replacement is the problem, literally anything else besides characters with decades of time and writing put into them, this writer is famous for literally fucking with canonical story points [editline]7th July 2016[/editline] nah but you're right everyone is just a bigoted racist crybaby

[QUOTE=_Pai;50665560]I like how you talk about "colored people" like they're some sort of oddity. As a minority, I'd be really insulted if I was told I was being hired to write comic books about "colored people" as if they were completely alien and not just regular people. Are you even listening to yourself right now.[/QUOTE] How should I refer to other people then when race is specifically the issue we're talking about here? Yes I am listening to myself, and I am thoroughly convinced you aren't listening to me and are intentionally painting me with a brush that doesn't fit me. In an industry where they ARE ACTUALLY A MINORITY, I guess it must be wrong, and racist of me to point that out? It's RACIST for me to point out that an industry largely populated by white people, is disingenuous with some of it's attempts to create diversity through these characters.

it just seems really fucking lazy [editline]7th July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=_Pai;50665560] I'd be really insulted if I was told I was being hired to write comic books about "colored people" as if they were completely alien and not just regular people. [/QUOTE] lmfao except for that is what is happening right fucking now with this iron man shit except the writer is white