• Projection, much?: Tropes Vs MEN creators abscond with cash.
    392 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39860147]Yes it does, she is talking about what the majority of video games do, and she is 100% right so I don't get where you're going, just because there's some out-liars doesn't invalidate what she said. The trope does not inherently "dis-empower female characters and rob them of the chance to be heroes in their own right" but the way it is perpetually used by the game industry in most games is to "dis-empower female characters and rob them of the chance to be heroes in their own right" also obviously she is talking about when a man is rescuing a woman, this is because that's how the trope is most often used and applied. It is the normal use for the trope.[/QUOTE] No, she's specifically talking about what the trope does. Always. That's why she says that the one example shows what the trope does and not this is an example of how the trope is often used. Why is it only dis-empowering when a female character needs saving? I am willing to agree that it's not okay for the majority of damsels to be female characters. But the 'dis-empowered' has nothing to do with the character that needs saving being female, it has to do with needing to be saved. So I do not agree that the damsel in distress trope dis-empowers female characters, it dis-empowers characters in general. Which is not a bad thing. The one needing saving should be dis-empowered, it'd be weird if it wasn't. It just shouldn't always be women.
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;39860260]No, she's specifically talking about what the trope does. Always. That's why she says that the one example shows what the trope does and not this is an example of how the trope is often used. Why is it only dis-empowering when a female character needs saving? I am willing to agree that it's not okay for the majority of damsels to be female characters. But the 'dis-empowered' has nothing to do with the character that needs saving being female, it has to do with needing to be saved. So I do not agree that the damsel in distress trope dis-empowers female characters, it dis-empowers characters in general. Which is not a bad thing. The one needing saving should be dis-empowered, it'd be weird if it wasn't. It just shouldn't always be women.[/QUOTE] it shouldn't always be women but it basically always is, that's the issue.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39860214]Well for one, thanks for remaining civil and not just blabbering your mouth like an idiot because you hate Anita, it's nice to actually talk to someone about this! Still people are blaming her for something she had no control of. It's her money to use as she feels is right in order to deliver the product that she pitched to get the money. If I had the money at the time I would have donated. If she opened up a donation thing on her site, I would donate, and I would hope she used the money for herself in whatever way would help her deliver content (which means living expenses, eating, whatever). If she's devoting her time to this project it means she is not working, and supporting her financially is a legitimate use of the money.[/QUOTE] I actually don't like Anita all too much after she said that ICO was "terribly sexist" (also implying that MGS follows the damsel in distress trope) which hit me deep but everyone is worth hearing out, once, in my opinion. I enjoy her videos as a debate article, I don't agree most of it, because I think most of the problem lies in the gamers way of understanding how a game works (hence why I think people treat games as glorified movies), rather than just "silly writers". I hope there will come something good out of this, naturally, but I also hope that writers aren't stricken with a fear of trying to make their work as politically correct as possible, since that could be worse rather than better.
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;39860260]No, she's specifically talking about what the trope does. Always. That's why she says that the one example shows what the trope does and not this is an example of how the trope is often used. Why is it only dis-empowering when a female character needs saving? I am willing to agree that it's not okay for the majority of damsels to be female characters. But the 'dis-empowered' has nothing to do with the character that needs saving being female, it has to do with needing to be saved. So I do not agree that the damsel in distress trope dis-empowers female characters, it dis-empowers characters in general. Which is not a bad thing. The one needing saving should be dis-empowered, it'd be weird if it wasn't. It just shouldn't always be women.[/QUOTE] you are so silly [quote]The one needing saving should be dis-empowered[/quote] ok and it's a fact that in most games it's a woman you're saving, therefore... [quote]The one needing saving [which are generally female] should be dis-empowered[/quote] ok you agree yay can we stop now? is this really that troubling for you [editline]9th March 2013[/editline] also, to add to that, it is disempowering for men in those roles, too! they just are very rarely in those roles! GET IT??????????
ya shad thats what I said :)
[QUOTE=RoadOfGirl;39860277]it shouldn't always be women but it basically always is, that's the issue.[/QUOTE] Yeah but I just don't see it as as much of an issue as you apparently do because I don't think it exists because women are seen as weaklings that need saving. I think it exists because most men are attracted to women, and would like to be a hero; saving a woman they're attracted to. Since gaming has up until recently been solely a (lonely nerd's playable dream) thing for men, there are a lot of games that cater to that demography. She's also showing a lot of old games, which definitely were only played by "nerds". I think this issue will and is being fixed by the growing number of female gamers, and doesn't need this kind of attention to happen.
[QUOTE=RoadOfGirl;39860240]that's for you to decide, isn't it [editline]10th March 2013[/editline] I'm not saying you should or shouldn't but don't discourage people from analyzing things. what kind of mindset is that?[/QUOTE] I'm not discouraging people from analyzing things. All I'm saying is that you could grab something that has no intentions of being this and that, and suddenly take all the fun from it because "oh its bad! its sexist" It's like boycotting stories about princesses and not telling them to your daughter because they are about damzels in distress. That's the core plot. Their just stories about princesses, not "made by superior male with intended sexism". Ofc some stories in those games could have been changed because they are indeed ridiculous and end up being repetitive (like the one of the beat-em-up game with the gut punch) One thing though. Generally, male players would prefer to save a girl instead of a guy right? Can't deny that those games are made mostly with male audience in mind, and ofc, needs a change. And jeep-eep, if it isn't too much of a bother, please make a fucking post instead of dumbing like you ALWAYS do with actual phrases and no sarcastic crap.
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;39860341]Since gaming has up until recently been solely a (lonely nerd's playable dream) thing for men, there are a lot of games that cater to that demography.[/QUOTE] pretty sure gaming was far more gender neutral at its origins than it is now, and this idea that it's for men is a result of games, not because women don't like games so they pander to men. [QUOTE=dass;39860366]I'm not discouraging people from analyzing things. All I'm saying is that you could grab something that has no intentions of being this and that, and suddenly take all the fun from it because "oh its bad! its sexist" It's like boycotting stories about princesses and not telling them to your daughter because they are about damzels in distress. That's the core plot. Their just stories about princesses, not "made by superior male with intended sexism". Ofc some stories in those games could have been changed because they are indeed ridiculous and end up being repetitive (like the one of the beat-em-up game with the gut punch)[/QUOTE] no one said it was their intent jeeze and intent doesn't remove you from responsibility
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;39860341]Yeah but I just don't see it as as much of an issue as you apparently do because I don't think it exists because women are seen as weaklings that need saving. I think it exists because most men are attracted to women, and would like to be a hero; saving a woman they're attracted to. Since gaming has up until recently been solely a (lonely nerd's playable dream) thing for men, there are a lot of games that cater to that demography. She's also showing a lot of old games, which definitely were only played by "nerds". I think this issue will and is being fixed by the growing number of female gamers, and doesn't need this kind of attention to happen.[/QUOTE] is there a similar thing on the other side? do women also dream of "saving" men as well?
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39860436]no one said it was their intent jeeze and intent doesn't remove you from responsibility[/QUOTE] That's the thing. I don't want to play a videogame and constantly check if its this or that. I want to play the videogame and enjoy playing it, and not think about if the male/female character is cool because of its gender or not. Which is what I said a while ago. I miss when games used to be fun, and not filled with cultural problems.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39860436]pretty sure gaming was far more gender neutral at its origins than it is now, and this idea that it's for men is a result of games, not because women don't like games so they pander to men. no one said it was their intent jeeze and intent doesn't remove you from responsibility[/QUOTE] Games are associated with technology and technology is associated with nerds and nerds are associated with men. Games might have been gender neutral, but their audience was mostly men, thus games changed to cater to men only. Now this stigma of games being for nerds (and technology being for nerds, but less so) is being broken and many women play games nowadays. Game developers and publishers will change with the market, games will and are become(ing) more women friendly. [editline]10th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;39860484]is there a similar thing on the other side? do women also dream of "saving" men as well?[/QUOTE] I don't know. Most women I know find it romantic to be saved by a strong man.
[QUOTE=dass;39860497]That's the thing. I don't want to play a videogame and constantly check if its this or that. I want to play the videogame and enjoy playing it, and not think about if the male/female character is cool because of its gender or not. Which is what I said a while ago. I miss when games used to be fun, and not filled with cultural problems.[/QUOTE] being conscious doesn't necessarily detract from your enjoyment of a game. i play games, some that have blatant sexism in it. just because i am conscious of sexism does not mean i never enjoy media that employs sexist stereotypes. i mean if i couldn't enjoy media that employed sexist stereotypes i would pretty much be stuck with...minecraft.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39860549]being conscious doesn't necessarily detract from your enjoyment of a game. i play games, some that have blatant sexism in it. just because i am conscious of sexism does not mean i never enjoy media that employs sexist stereotypes. i mean if i couldn't enjoy media that employed sexist stereotypes i would pretty much be stuck with...minecraft.[/QUOTE] OH... Nevermind. I'm the one complicating things then :v:
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39860549]being conscious doesn't necessarily detract from your enjoyment of a game. i play games, some that have blatant sexism in it. just because i am conscious of sexism does not mean i never enjoy media that employs sexist stereotypes. i mean if i couldn't enjoy media that employed sexist stereotypes i would pretty much be stuck with...minecraft.[/QUOTE] So you'd say that your opinion regarding women's place in society remains unchanged even after a marathon session of Dick Mckillington: Saver of the hot alien babes?
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;39860517] I don't know. Most women I know find it romantic to be saved by a strong man.[/QUOTE] see? so society looks at women as something to be saved, i.e. something weak. now you could make the claim that women [i]naturally[/i] want to be saved by strong men. but that's going to be looked at as a "biotruth" by everyone else because it is a pretty lame assumption that isn't really backed by any empirical evidence. you could also say it is caused by society itself. there is better evidence for this because we already see how different groups of people are based on culture and upbringing. when you say society is the cause of these problems, you begin to see that society(and the perpetuations through popular media) as immoral because it is imposing an inherently unfair standard for the behavior or both men and women. [editline]10th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=G-Strogg;39860586]So you'd say that your opinion regarding women's place in society remains unchanged even after a marathon session of Dick Mckillington: Saver of the hot alien babes?[/QUOTE] something like "saver of hot alien babes" wouldn't be quite as worrying for me, honestly. we all pretty know that it's misogynistic crap just from the name. however, what gets me is supposedly gender equal or progressive shows that employ these stereotypes. as long as i am conscious of the way people are being portrayed, i can work to rationalize and critique the sexist portrayal. if i am not aware of sexism, then it becomes harder for me to not be in some way influenced by it. idk if that makes sense or not, i hope so. basically my point is that i believe with proper consciousness of the issue, then your opinion regarding the status of people in society is much harder to influence without you actually rationalizing and logically concluding why it [i]should[/i] change.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39860588]see? so society looks at women as something to be saved, i.e. something weak. now you could make the claim that women [i]naturally[/i] want to be saved by strong men. but that's going to be looked at as a "biotruth" by everyone else because it is a pretty lame assumption that isn't really backed by any empirical evidence. you could also say it is caused by society itself. there is better evidence for this because we already see how different groups of people are based on culture and upbringing. when you say society is the cause of these problems, you begin to see that society(and the perpetuations through popular media) as immoral because it is imposing an inherently unfair standard for the behavior or both men and women.[/QUOTE] I see it more as women are worth saving, nothing something that needs saving or weak.
[QUOTE=dass;39860497]That's the thing. I don't want to play a videogame and constantly check if its this or that. I want to play the videogame and enjoy playing it, and not think about if the male/female character is cool because of its gender or not. Which is what I said a while ago. I miss when games used to be fun, and not filled with cultural problems.[/QUOTE] that isn't what is happening omg people don't actively look around for things to scream HOLY SHIT I FOUND SOME MISOGYNY LADIEEEES, ATTACK you know some women play games too? it might be hurtful to them to see their gender always paraded around as an object or goal and rarely the hero, right? [editline]9th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=mobrockers2;39860648]I see it more as women are worth saving, nothing something that needs saving or weak.[/QUOTE] thanks for sharing your manpinion
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;39860648]I see it more as women are worth saving, nothing something that needs saving or weak.[/QUOTE] I see it as someone is worth saving. The reason why you save that someone is what this trope stands and falls on.
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;39860648]I see it more as women are worth saving, nothing something that needs saving or weak.[/QUOTE] i would say that anyone who you love or care about is worth saving, not necessarily a woman. but that doesn't mean everyone who is worth saving actually needs saving, if you catch my drift. when women are consistently put into a position of [i]needing[/i] saving, a very popular theme since chivalric romances in the middle ages, then it can impact societal opinion of women, seeing them as weak. [editline]10th March 2013[/editline] and you can't claim that someone who needs to be save isn't in some way weak. that's the whole point of them needing to be saved. the problem isn't that women need to be saved in some games, the problem is that women are the overwhelming majority of people who need to be saved in games. this wouldn't be a trope if men and women needed saving equally in media.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39860660] thanks for sharing your manpinion[/QUOTE] I really think you should stop using words like "manpinion" and "mangry", they don't add to the discussion and just seem childish.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39860689]i would say that anyone who you love or care about is worth saving, not necessarily a woman. but that doesn't mean everyone who is worth saving actually needs saving, if you catch my drift. when women are consistently put into a position of [i]needing[/i] saving, a very popular theme since chivalric romances in the middle ages, then it can impact societal opinion of women, seeing them as weak. [editline]10th March 2013[/editline] and you can't claim that someone who needs to be save isn't in some way weak. that's the whole point of them needing to be saved. the problem isn't that women need to be saved in some games, the problem is that women are the overwhelming majority of people who need to be saved in games. this wouldn't be a trope if men and women needed saving equally in media.[/QUOTE] I recognize this. I do not recognize that this isn't changing with more and more women gaming nowadays thus creating a demand for more games catering to women also. [editline]10th March 2013[/editline] I also do not think it's at all relevant to talk about 10+ year old games unless you're comparing them to newer games to see if there's been an increase in games also aimed at women / more women friendly. The gaming demography was a lot different back then.
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;39860728]I recognize this. I do not recognize that this isn't changing with more and more women gaming nowadays thus creating a demand for more games catering to women also.[/QUOTE] tbh you don't have to be a woman(or even a feminist) to be sick of this trope. i thought it was a good trope to start on since almost everyone rolls their eyes at this device nowadays. [editline]10th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=mobrockers2;39860728] I also do not think it's at all relevant to talk about 10+ year old games unless you're comparing them to newer games to see if there's been an increase in games also aimed at women / more women friendly. The gaming demography was a lot different back then.[/QUOTE] why not? the point is to outline the history of the trope and how it has embedded itself in gaming culture. you can't do that without pointing to some classics that have employed the trope.
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;39860728]I recognize this. I do not recognize that this isn't changing with more and more women gaming nowadays thus creating a demand for more games catering to women also. [editline]10th March 2013[/editline] I also do not think it's at all relevant to talk about 10+ year old games unless you're comparing them to newer games to see if there's been an increase in games also aimed at women / more women friendly. The gaming demography was a lot different back then.[/QUOTE] it's mostly irrelevant today but it's also a huge part of gaming history so who cares? its about tropes in games, it's one of the most used ones in the past
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39860759]tbh you don't have to be a woman(or even a feminist) to be sick of this trope. i thought it was a good trope to start on since almost everyone rolls their eyes at this device nowadays. [editline]10th March 2013[/editline] why not? the point is to outline the history of the trope and how it has embedded itself in gaming culture. you can't do that without pointing to some classics that have employed the trope.[/QUOTE] Fair enough. I hope she talks about some more recent games in her next video, and she doesn't take another 9 months to release it or this is all pointless.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;39860701]I really think you should stop using words like "manpinion" and "mangry", they don't add to the discussion and just seem childish.[/QUOTE] its hilarious too tho so no thanks
Oh my god don't even start another argument like in Videos And Other Shit.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39860759]tbh you don't have to be a woman(or even a feminist) to be sick of this trope. i thought it was a good trope to start on since almost everyone rolls their eyes at this device nowadays. [editline]10th March 2013[/editline] why not? the point is to outline the history of the trope and how it has embedded itself in gaming culture. you can't do that without pointing to some classics that have employed the trope.[/QUOTE] A) that's why I think this video series should be more about what games can improve in general rather than just have a one-sided perspective on the problem. Had this been presented as "wow writers sure are tired of thinking" rather than "wow writers sure aren't thinking about women" the end result would be a lot better. B) while I won't deny the old games part in this I would definitely shift the blame towards new devs because as I have previously stated, game devs in the 80's new programming and not much else. That's why you can see such differences In early games with dedicated designers and writers VS early games without them. (You can still see these differences)
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39860804]its hilarious too tho so no thanks[/QUOTE] only to you... and you proved what kind of sense of humor you have in the other thread
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39860804]its hilarious too tho so no thanks[/QUOTE] Well at least you confirmed the "childish" part.
[QUOTE=IM BATMAN;39860812]Oh my god don't even start another argument like in Videos And Other Shit.[/QUOTE] ohlookitsthisthreadagain.jpg
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