US Senator says boots on the ground is the "next step" to defeating ISIS; airstrikes "won't win this
92 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;46079336]yeah because the government of the "land of the free" should be able to tell you what cause to die for
if a war's too unpopular to gather soldiers it shouldn't be fought. that seems to be the democratic way to approach it right?[/QUOTE]
Every war is going to be unpopular bud. WWII was unpopular at the time it was fought and there were several conflicting opinions about it in the US. Lots of people wanted us to end our embargo on oil against Japan, despite the fact they were in the process of carrying out mass rapes and pillaging their way through China. There was also quite a popular Nazi political party that wanted us to join the side the side of the Germans during the war. So volunteers weren't exactly forming lines around the block to go fight [i]another[/i] one of Europe's wars.
Justifications for war typically aren't found until after the fact. Once we found out about the Holocaust after WWII, nobody really dared to speak out and say it was a fruitless war.
At the time of the Vietnam war, the US saw Communism as the greatest threat to the US and our allies, and we'd already lost half of one of our footholds in Asia, and we weren't ready to lose another. I'm not justifying the war, I'm just saying that at the time it was seen as a worthwhile cause.
what you're saying is the "wisdom" of the government trumps the will of the people which is the basis for every dictatorship and totalitarian state
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;46079409]what you're saying is the "wisdom" of the government trumps the will of the people which is the basis for every dictatorship and totalitarian state[/QUOTE]
Nah, just saying that at the time the war was justified, and if we came out of it victorious, people wouldn't have had a problem with the draft or casualties, just like WWII. The draft is a necessary evil in a time of war. The anti-war protest movement was, for the most part, the proper solution to the war.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;46079319]Regardless if you like it or not, the US needed the draft during the Vietnam war. Not because it was a war for survival or anything like that, but because there was so little support from the public for the war. No sane highschooler would want to throw away his future and no mother would want to her son to go and fight a war he didn't need to fight. The US needed the draft to fuel the war because volunteers weren't exactly common.[/QUOTE]
Not that US involvement in Vietnam was pointless or anything.
Personally, I'd rather be drafted to fight ISIS then fight in the previous, pointless, oil-company-dick-sucking Iraq War. I don't know about ya'll but I want to fuck ISIS up.
[QUOTE=Xystus234;46079458]
Personally, I'd rather be drafted to fight ISIS then fight in the previous, pointless, oil-company-dick-sucking Iraq War. I don't know about ya'll but I want to fuck ISIS up.[/QUOTE]
good news, if it comes to that you and anyone else who feels that way can volunteer
[QUOTE=Xystus234;46079458]Not that US involvement in Vietnam was pointless or anything.
Personally, I'd rather be drafted to fight ISIS then fight in the previous, pointless, oil-company-dick-sucking Iraq War. I don't know about ya'll but I want to fuck ISIS up.[/QUOTE]
Reread my previous points please. [b]At the time[/b], the war was justifiable. Communism was the greatest threat the US had ever faced and it was a worthwhile cause to stop the spread of Communism in East-Asia.
And the reason you'd be OK with fighting ISIS today is basically because of the internet. You have ready access to all of their atrocities in 1080p steaming video. Back during any previous war, that media didn't exist. All you got were news papers with watered down stories of what was happening and blurry black and white photos. If the internet existed back during the Vietnam war, and we had streaming video of what was going on in Vietnamese political prisoner camps and military POW camps, I'm sure quite a few people your age would be gung-ho to fight against the NVA and Vietcong.
Afghanistan 2: The electric boogaloo.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;46079472]good news, if it comes to that you and anyone else who feels that way can volunteer[/QUOTE]
I have to ask now, if you want government benefits and safety nets but are then unwilling to put your life on the line for your nation, why even bother for benefits.
I can understand if your an anarchist. If you have socialist ideals however, well, major conflict of interest.
[QUOTE=Swilly;46079516]I have to ask now, if you want government benefits and safety nets but are then unwilling to put your life on the line for your nation, why even bother for benefits.
I can understand if your an anarchist. If you have socialist ideals however, well, major conflict of interest.[/QUOTE]
He's young and entitled, so he doesn't understand the cost of living in a country, what a social contract is, and the consequences of being fickle with your citizenship.
[QUOTE=Swilly;46079516]I have to ask now, if you want government benefits and safety nets but are then unwilling to put your life on the line for your nation, why even bother for benefits.
I can understand if your an anarchist. If you have socialist ideals however, well, major conflict of interest.[/QUOTE]
there are countries that have way more benefits than us and less militarization so that's bullshit
if I have to choose between freedom and peace why do we suck at both
[editline]26th September 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;46079544]He's young and entitled, so he doesn't understand the cost of living in a country, what a social contract is, and the consequences of being fickle with your citizenship.[/QUOTE]
old enough to die for my country like a good boy but not old enough to have an informed opinion! [IMG]http://facepunch.com/fp/emoot/sax.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;46079476]Reread my previous points please. [b]At the time[/b], the war was justifiable. Communism was the greatest threat the US had ever faced and it was a worthwhile cause to stop the spread of Communism in East-Asia.
And the reason you'd be OK with fighting ISIS today is basically because of the internet. You have ready access to all of their atrocities in 1080p steaming video. Back during any previous war, that media didn't exist. All you got were news papers with watered down stories of what was happening and blurry black and white photos. If the internet existed back during the Vietnam war, and we had streaming video of what was going on in Vietnamese political prisoner camps and military POW camps, I'm sure quite a few people your age would be gung-ho to fight against the NVA and Vietcong.[/QUOTE]
And I completely agree, otherwise I'd be addressing that. However I do believe that the use of boots on the ground is potentially justifiable depending on developments that occur with ISIL, simply due to the fact that genocide is being committed there against civilians and minorities, judging due to the fact that that rumor is that ISIL is still going strong despite the airstrikes. A decision to put boots on the ground should wait until we know for certain that the airstrikes aren't going to work and that more lives are at stake if we don't intervene than if we do.
At the time? I could definitely see why we intervened in Vietnam, frankly your post gave me a better insight to the time. I do think that this situation is different as we're facing a static entity rather than acting as a foreign military police force like in the previous war, or facing massive civil opposition like in Vietnam for that matter.
[editline]26th September 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;46079559]there are countries that have way more benefits than us and less militarization so that's bullshit
if I have to choose between freedom and peace why do we suck at both
[editline]26th September 2014[/editline]
old enough to die for my country like a good boy but not old enough to have an informed opinion! [IMG]http://facepunch.com/fp/emoot/sax.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
It's not so much a choice between freedom and peace as much as millions of lives at stake and potential catastrophe from non-intervention.
Look what happened when we didn't intervene in Rwanda.
[QUOTE=Xystus234;46079619]It's not so much a choice between freedom and peace as much as millions of lives at stake and potential catastrophe from non-intervention.
Look what happened when we didn't intervene in Rwanda.[/QUOTE]
I'm not debating the merits of individual wars I'm debating the merits of the draft, which is admittedly a little sidetracked.
However, saving foreign lives isn't really our responsibility (like you said, we didn't help in Rwanda and it's not for not knowing what would happen) and it's certainly nothing to pluck up fresh high school grads to die over. This is what the U.N. was supposed to be for but unfortunately it's fucking useless. I'm pretty sure everyone hated us for playing world police a decade ago. I guess this shit really is cyclical. Sucks to be a superpower.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;46079544]He's young and entitled, so he doesn't understand the cost of living in a country, what a social contract is, and the consequences of being fickle with your citizenship.[/QUOTE]
That's a big assumption of a someone you don't know.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;46079367]Every war is going to be unpopular bud. WWII was unpopular at the time it was fought and there were several conflicting opinions about it in the US. Lots of people wanted us to end our embargo on oil against Japan, despite the fact they were in the process of carrying out mass rapes and pillaging their way through China. There was also quite a popular Nazi political party that wanted us to join the side the side of the Germans during the war. So volunteers weren't exactly forming lines around the block to go fight [i]another[/i] one of Europe's wars.
Justifications for war typically aren't found until after the fact. Once we found out about the Holocaust after WWII, nobody really dared to speak out and say it was a fruitless war.
At the time of the Vietnam war, the US saw Communism as the greatest threat to the US and our allies, and we'd already lost half of one of our footholds in Asia, and we weren't ready to lose another. I'm not justifying the war, I'm just saying that at the time it was seen as a worthwhile cause.[/QUOTE]
Haha, bro are you trying to say that WWII was unpopular to the American public during the time? Because after Pearl Harbor and the Nazi's rolling over Europe the American people were screaming for blood.
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Found some pictures of people lining around the block for you. What's the point of this post? Just to say you don't know what you're talking about.
[QUOTE=SGTSpartans;46076379]Well I mean I just signed up and enrolled in ROTC at my college so this is gonna be a fun few years![/QUOTE]
I just finished basic training, and the unit I'm transferring to is always among the first to deploy, so yey!
Germany will still probably pussy out and do nothing, though.
[QUOTE=Explosions;46076111]Can we stop saying "boots on the ground" please. I physically have to look away from the screen whenever I read or hear that phrase now. Seriously, I actually look away from the screen because of how much of a groaner it's become.[/QUOTE]
Sorry.
I do not support shoes on the ground in the Middle East.
I thought it was like, actually putting a pair of boots standing on the ground so it looks like the person wearing them had been cartoonishly blown away
To scare them
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;46079661]I'm not debating the merits of individual wars I'm debating the merits of the draft, which is admittedly a little sidetracked.
However, saving foreign lives isn't really our responsibility (like you said, we didn't help in Rwanda and it's not for not knowing what would happen) and it's certainly nothing to pluck up fresh high school grads to die over. This is what the U.N. was supposed to be for but unfortunately it's fucking useless. I'm pretty sure everyone hated us for playing world police a decade ago. I guess this shit really is cyclical. Sucks to be a superpower.[/QUOTE]
A draft has its merit for smaller countries that are in trouble during a war, I doubt it would ever become relevant in the US nowadays.
Drop a SEAL team or two and let them go hunting along with the airstrikes. This kind of shit is what they were made for back in the 60s, search and destroy. And bring the SAS.
Seen this coming the United states doesn't seem to learn from past pointless wars, looks like 2003 all over again.
[QUOTE=wewt!;46080464]A draft has its merit for smaller countries that are in trouble during a war, I doubt it would ever become relevant in the US nowadays.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it makes sense for a country that's being physically invaded and still relies on overwhelming manpower to protect itself, neither of which is the case for us. When you're a superpower, superior training and equipment is what wins wars.
I doubt they'll draft anyone it would cause a public outcry/riots all of over America and maybe even a civil war.
[QUOTE=coldroll5;46083716]I doubt they'll draft anyone it would cause a public outcry/riots all of over America and [B]maybe even a civil war.[/B][/QUOTE]
"I don't want to go into the military to fight a war! So I declare war on the US!"
:v:
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;46079559]there are countries that have way more benefits than us and less militarization so that's bullshit
if I have to choose between freedom and peace why do we suck at both
[/QUOTE]
You're kidding me right?
Every NATO nation has at least constitutional provisions in place to reinstate draft if they put it on absentia.
Also don't give me that militarization bullshit when the US is footing most of the bill for NATO.
[editline]26th September 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;46079661]I'm not debating the merits of individual wars I'm debating the merits of the draft, which is admittedly a little sidetracked.
However, saving foreign lives isn't really our responsibility (like you said, we didn't help in Rwanda and it's not for not knowing what would happen) and it's certainly nothing to pluck up fresh high school grads to die over. This is what the U.N. was supposed to be for but unfortunately it's fucking useless. I'm pretty sure everyone hated us for playing world police a decade ago. I guess this shit really is cyclical. Sucks to be a superpower.[/QUOTE]
That's the issue with being a superpower. People expect you to lead the way and so you end up spending more and making sure the basic world economy isn't going down the shitter than your own internal economy.
Half the crap we pull in the middle east is to make sure Europe and China get continued oil at a steady(still rising) price.
[QUOTE=bob4life;46078870]Honestly, i want the destruction of the ISIS to be as cold and mechanical as possible.
These guys dont deserve the privilege of being able to fight other human beings.[/QUOTE]
This is the reason why extemists have any material to use in their propaganda in the first place.
I knew it was only a matter of time before we put boots on the ground, despite the promises from the President and others that there wouldn't be boots on the ground. I just hope he holds strong to his pledge.
Another case of politicians saying one thing and doing another... is this really a surprise to anyone?
I think the illustration of Obama as two face fits perfectly.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;46083758]"I don't want to go into the military to fight a war! So I declare war on the US!"
:v:[/QUOTE]
Look what happened in 1970 during the Vietnam war there was a protest near a high school and the police opened fire and killed 3 or 4 people.
[QUOTE=coldroll5;46100950]Look what happened in 1970 during the Vietnam war there was a protest near a high school and the police opened fire and killed 3 or 4 people.[/QUOTE]
If you're talking about Kent State, that was a college full of college students whom were barred from the draft due to their education.
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