Jon Stewart points out hypocrisy in the Charleston church massacre + Why Is the Confederate Flag Sti - Polidicks

Requesting a reupload of the video [t]http://i.imgur.com/W6gwE2o.png[/t]

[QUOTE=RaxaHax;48024802]I feel like you're critically understanding the victim cost of actual slavery. I work a pretty back breaking job out in the hot outdoors, but the advantage is that I can leave if I'd like. If I were liable to be beaten or hanged if I left my job I'd understand your point more.[/QUOTE] I think it's just polemics.

[QUOTE=Killuah;48024734]Well done you did exactly the "it's not racism it's a crazy weirdo and terrorism" apologies the second half of the monologue foresaw. Looks like you didn't even read it to me.[/QUOTE] He is a racist, crazy, deranged, psychotic fuck. But the narrative that he was somehow influenced by a Confederate flag is delusional hogwash of all it's own breed.

Anyone owns a confederate battle flag here in Alabama are just the type of people you expect to have them. Mostly rednecks in all honesty, 95% of the time is harmless as fuck they brandish it around because it reminds them of their southern pride and heritage. Of course you'll have racist who use the flag for their own means but the fact of the matter is that most people who use these flags are harmless or just straight up hicks.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;48024838]He is a racist, crazy, deranged, psychotic fuck. But the narrative that he was somehow influenced by a Confederate flag is delusional hogwash of all it's own breed.[/QUOTE] If he was all you described him to be, how is him being influenced by the Confederate Flag not a valid argument??? [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] you are also being awfully defensive about a flag that you said doesn't really matter...

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;48024674]Why does a flag fucking matter? It's a flag. It's a street name.[/QUOTE] If flags didn't matter, they wouldn't be used as they did. A flag represents a factions ideals. When you wave a Confederate flag, you're saying "I support the Confederacy's ideals."

[QUOTE=Perfumly;48024482]I believe the confederate flag is mostly to honor the men and boys who died defending their homeland from the union[/quote] What do you think they were fighting for? The confederacy were the aggressors in the war and no bullets were fired until the south attacked the North at Fort Sumter. The North was fighting to put down a rebellion, not oppress the south. [quote]more than a symbol of holding confederate beliefs. Even back then slave owners were a huge minority, and I doubt your average southerner back then was well connected enough to be political. [/quote] Just because the slave owners were the minority doesn't mean the south was fighting to preserve slavery. They may have been the minority, but they were the rich, powerful minority. In fact, several of the seceding states wrote in their declarations of secession that they identified their cause with that of slavery. Some described slavery as "the most perfect institution". If they didn't say they were fighting to preserve slavery, they said they were seceding because the North wasn't sending back runaway slaves, as they were legally required to. The civil war was 100% about slavery, regardless of what the Rebel soldiers THOUGHT they were fighting for, they died to preserve slavery. [quote] Not really defending its presence just playing doubles advocate[/QUOTE] devil's* advocate

[QUOTE=Perfumly;48024581]As stated, the majority of southerners were not slave owners - and again - many were not fighting for political ideals. The union used some pretty brutal tactics against the confederate states that harmed not only soldiers but also a lot of civilians. Have some empathy, you think a 14 year old boy on the front line was thinking "oh man I can't wait to kill these Union soldiers so I can own all of the niggers"[/QUOTE] Well... Yeah, that was during the war itself. They used tactics not really anyone else did, and they felt it necessary to finish the war, real quick. They saw how brutal it was, and went "welp, let's not ever do that again." Yeah, Confederate soldiers went out to fight to say "I stand with my state, with my Confederacy's right to be it's own entity, separated from the Union." But answer [I]why[/I] they separated in the first place. [I]Why[/I] did those states separate, and form the Confederacy of America?

[QUOTE=Gwoodman;48024852]If he was all you described him to be, how is him being influenced by the Confederate Flag not a valid argument??? [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] you are also being awfully defensive about a flag that you said doesn't really matter...[/QUOTE] Because saying a flag promotes ideals is on par with saying I promote the Bombing of Dresden because I have an American flag in my household. Or the Indian Wars... Or the Banana Wars... Or the countless other colonial ventures my country has been in. It's nonsense. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=proboardslol;48024896]What do you think they were fighting for? The confederacy were the aggressors in the war and no bullets were fired until the south attacked the North at Fort Sumter. The North was fighting to put down a rebellion, not oppress the south.[/QUOTE] U wot. Dude. Numerous shots were fired before Fort Sumter. Mostly by abolitionist militias attacking Slave Plantations.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;48024916]Because saying a flag promotes ideals is on par with saying I promote the Bombing of Dresden because I have an American flag in my household. Or the Indian Wars... Or the Banana Wars... Or the countless other colonial ventures my country has been in. It's nonsense. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] U wot. Dude. Numerous shots were fired before Fort Sumter. Mostly by abolitionist militias attacking Slave Plantations.[/QUOTE] Abolitionist Militias were not the Northern Army. Not the Union

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;48024838]He is a racist, crazy, deranged, psychotic fuck. But the narrative that he was somehow influenced by a Confederate flag is delusional hogwash of all it's own breed.[/QUOTE] Noon says that his narative in specific is influenced by a piece of cloth. The OP states that the kind of endorsement that is just symbolized by (EXAMPLE) flying every flag but the confederate half-mast is influencing people.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;48024916]Because saying a flag promotes ideals is on par with saying I promote the Bombing of Dresden because I have an American flag in my household. Or the Indian Wars... Or the Banana Wars... Or the countless other colonial ventures my country has been in. It's nonsense.[/QUOTE] It's literally nothing like that. American ideals changed over the years. Flying an American flag doesn't imply any of those things, but it means you support whatever conflict or policies they enforce, now. Britain was harshly against Germany during the time the Bombing of Dresden happened. If you flew a Union Jack at that time, it'd be pretty safe to assume you were against Germany. If you fly one now, are you still against Germany? Fuck no, because ideals changed over the years. The Confederacy was born and died on the same ideals, so the ideals of the Confederate flag never changed.

Saying the Confederate flag was not about subjugating blacks and was instead about a government structure and mode of economy is like saying the Nazi flag is a symbol of socialism and workers freedom.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;48024916]Because saying a flag promotes ideals is on par with saying I promote the Bombing of Dresden because I have an American flag in my household. Or the Indian Wars... Or the Banana Wars... Or the countless other colonial ventures my country has been in. It's nonsense.[/QUOTE] Look, I get what you're trying to say, but what does the Confederate flag symbolize? The entire span of its existence as the flag of a self-declared sovereign nation was during an illegal rebellion against the federal government largely spurred by economic animosity boiling down to the issue of slavery. The culture of the south existed before the Dixie flag and it existed afterwards, too. If you want to take pride in your southern heritage, why not the state flag? Why fly the battle flag of a defeated rebellion identified primarily by its association with slavery? The fact that people are still flying the Dixie just baffles me.

[QUOTE=RaxaHax;48024802]I feel like you're critically understanding the victim cost of actual slavery. I work a pretty back breaking job out in the hot outdoors, but the advantage is that I can leave if I'd like. If I were liable to be beaten or hanged if I left my job I'd understand your point more.[/QUOTE] Most people are in positions where they have the "freedom" to get up and leave but if they do are subject to financial ruin and out of a living situation. Unfettered capitalism like in the United States there is a constant struggle for financial survival. Capitalism is the emperor watching peasants fight over his scraps so they don't starve, it's more of a psychological terror than outright physical brutality. The point is, the pyramidal hierarchy of mankind has not changed since before Egypt even, and it needs to soon. We are no longer at a stage where it is beneficial

Sorry Jon, but racism doesn't exist anymore. Didn't you get the memo? Just ask anybody who's white, middle class, and socially conservative. They'll tell you all about it. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;48024916]Because saying a flag promotes ideals is on par with saying I promote the Bombing of Dresden because I have an American flag in my household. Or the Indian Wars... Or the Banana Wars... Or the countless other colonial ventures my country has been in. It's nonsense. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] U wot. Dude. Numerous shots were fired before Fort Sumter. Mostly by abolitionist militias attacking Slave Plantations.[/QUOTE] Not at all. A flag is a symbol of a belief system, a culture, a shared set of ideals. Given that society is dynamic, that symbol value can change over time despite the icon itself remaining the same. Today's American flag doesn't necessarily represent the same thing is yesterday's. This largely what makes flag burning a powerful symbolic gesture: it is a statement that the flag no longer represents the "true" ideals of the country and that the burner no longer recognizes it as their symbol. However, the Confederate flag never had a chance to change. It is a static symbol, because it lived and died representing a belief system that failed to evolve, because it was crushed. Like the Nazi flag, it is pretty damn impossible to separate what that flag symbolizes from its historical and cultural context.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48025227]Sorry Jon, but racism doesn't exist anymore. Didn't you get the memo? Just ask anybody who's white, middle class, and socially conservative. They'll tell you all about it.[/QUOTE] i wasn't aware the answer to resolving prejudice was to keep spouting it

So wait, the flag on the roof of the General Lee is racist? God damn it.

[QUOTE=andrewmcwatters;48025309]i wasn't aware the answer to resolving prejudice was to keep spouting it[/QUOTE] I don't think you understand what satire is.

Fuck's sake, the [i]swastika[/i] is more justifiable than the stars'n'bars. The swastika has had more meanings than one of hate in many cultures. The 'bars is a symbol of slaveholder treason. No more, no less.

[QUOTE=Dalndox;48025361]I don't think you understand what satire is.[/QUOTE] i think he does understand what satire is but does not appreciate the sentiment behind bda's statement

[QUOTE=Perfumly;48024482]I believe the confederate flag is mostly to honor the men and boys who died defending their homeland from the union, more than a symbol of holding confederate beliefs. Even back then slave owners were a huge minority, and I doubt your average southerner back then was well connected enough to be political. I'm sure most had no idea why they were really fighting. Sad Not really defending its presence just playing doubles advocate[/QUOTE] The flag was never the official flag of the Confederate States of America. They never actually flew that flag. The flag was actually rejected in the 1860s. The only reason that it became popular is because the KKK took the design and began using it and popularizing it long after the war was over in the 1940s and 50s. So yeah, it basically only exists because a racist group wanted to use it as a racist symbol. Its mere existence in modern society is an inherently racist thing.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;48025426]The flag was never the official flag of the Confederate States of America. They never actually flew that flag.[/QUOTE] It was never the official flag, but it was the battle flag in a military context and you can find plenty of references to it having more public support. It could be a legitimate symbol of the South's war for attempted independence, but why you'd want to celebrate that is beyond me.

I don't get the use of the confederate flag at all, but I think this point is kinda weak: [QUOTE]In South Carolina, the roads that black people drive on are named for Confederate generals who fought to keep black people from being able to drive freely on that road. That’s insanity. That’s racial wallpaper. That’s — that’s — you can’t allow that, you know.[/QUOTE] Like, [url=http://www.britannica.com/topic/The-Founding-Fathers-and-Slavery-1269536]"the founding fathers" had slaves too y'know[/url]. Should Washington DC be renamed? It seems like a kinda arbitrary point in time, and it comes purely from the fact that the north didn't need slaves at that point - if the north were still dependent on slaves for the economy, they wouldn't have been so adamant to do away with it (and honestly they only did completely not long before the civil war). Not trying to say slavery wasn't terrible or that I think it's a good thing to name streets after confederate generals, but I do think it's a kinda arbitrary decision. Having a slave owner on the 100- or 2-dollar bill apparently isn't a problem - maybe because having slaves was normal at that point? Well, so it was in the South a hundred years later and therefore I think the point is kinda moot.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;48025557]I don't get the use of the confederate flag at all, but I think this point is kinda weak: Like, [url=http://www.britannica.com/topic/The-Founding-Fathers-and-Slavery-1269536]"the founding fathers" had slaves too y'know[/url]. Should Washington DC be renamed? It seems like a kinda arbitrary point in time, and it comes purely from the fact that the north didn't need slaves at that point - if the north were still dependent on slaves for the economy, they wouldn't have been so adamant to do away with it (and honestly they only did completely not long before the civil war). Not trying to say slavery wasn't terrible or that I think it's a good thing to name streets after confederate generals, but I do think it's a kinda arbitrary decision. Having a slave owner on the 100- or 2-dollar bill apparently isn't a problem - maybe because having slaves was normal at that point? Well, so it was in the South a hundred years later and therefore I think the point is kinda moot.[/QUOTE] They didn't pride themselves and cause a massive issue about slavery. The south ceceded over it.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;48025426]The flag was never the official flag of the Confederate States of America. They never actually flew that flag. The flag was actually rejected in the 1860s. The only reason that it became popular is because the KKK took the design and began using it and popularizing it long after the war was over in the 1940s and 50s. So yeah, it basically only exists because a racist group wanted to use it as a racist symbol. Its mere existence in modern society is an inherently racist thing.[/QUOTE] I could've sworn it was the Northern Virginia battle flag. It was actually flown during the war I'm pretty sure, but yeah it's definitely not the actual flag of the confederacy. Nowadays it seems to only be representative of uninformed pride or blatant racism.

[QUOTE=Winters;48025640]I could've sworn it was the Northern Virginia battle flag. It was actually flown during the war I'm pretty sure, but yeah it's definitely not the actual flag of the confederacy. Nowadays it seems to only be representative of uninformed pride or blatant racism.[/QUOTE] Yeah, I wasn't very precise. When I said "They never actually flew that flag," I met the Confederate States of America never actually flew that flag as the flag of the Confederacy. It was indeed the flag for Lee's army, and was flown there. It would've been mostly forgotten until the KKK dug it up and began using it again as a symbol of white pride and racial purity.

[QUOTE=LegndNikko;48025610]They didn't pride themselves and cause a massive issue about slavery. The south ceceded over it.[/QUOTE] That's because there was no reason to secede over it when they all agreed it was a-ok. The founding fathers just wrote "all men are created equal" and just decided black people didn't totally qualify as human.

The fact that the confederate flag wasn't lowered to half-staff when the other ones were is just a massive racist spit in the face of everyone

Even if you strip away all racial context from the Confederate flag it's still a symbol for traitors. It's also the symbol of a war started by wealthy Southern elites to maintain their failing economic model against a society in the midst of rapid industrialization and social upheaval. Nothing the CSA fought for was noble, it had precious little to do with governance and everything to do with being able to maintain the status quo of the plantation aristocracy.