Jon Stewart points out hypocrisy in the Charleston church massacre + Why Is the Confederate Flag Sti - Polidicks

Oh wow, he interviews Malala Yousfazai in the same episode. Chats about the event and everything. How come american "news comedians" or whatever you wanna call them are the ones with the best content and opinion pieces

[QUOTE=ThaBoss;48024550]I don't get this whole "honoring people who defend their homeland", what's so honorable about defending a despicable way of living just to keep your extremely one-sided and outdated economy running?[/QUOTE] Stalin crushed Hitler at Stalingrad and beyond, then proceeded to make everything miserable as fuck thereafter. You can't pick and choose which of those happened. They both happened, they were both the same person. The flag is first and foremost a symbol, and symbols change over time. Here's a flag that was pretty synonymous with white people lording it the fuck over brown and black and yellow people for a long Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong goddamn time: [img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg[/img] Context is king. Context is always king.

Southman here. I genuinely don't give a crap about the flag, or about Rhodesia, or any of that garbage. The bottom line is that this guy was a man who shot some black people because he didn't like them. Because of the way racism works, there's not a lot you can do to prevent that from happening. Do the best you can in schools, try to educate people against it, and it'll still crop up in the homes of people who, for one reason or another, think that they're better than others. Complete shifts in society don't happen over the course of sixty years, these wounds will take a lot longer to heal. That's not to say glorifying elements that symbolized that society is a good thing, but it's irrelevant. It's missing the point. Racism goes deeper than a flag on a pole, or some names on a signpost. It's thoroughly and completely systemic, propagated by people on both sides of the fence, and it's not going to go away until those divides can knit themselves together again.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;48025801]The fact that the confederate flag wasn't lowered to half-staff when the other ones were is just a massive racist spit in the face of everyone[/QUOTE] i thought this was due to an inability to do it i heard the flag wasn't on a line, it was just mounted on the top of the pole

[QUOTE=andrewmcwatters;48026304]i thought this was due to an inability to do it i heard the flag wasn't on a line, it was just mounted on the top of the pole[/QUOTE] Because it's illegal to lower it under almost any circumstances.

Yeah that flag isn't on a normal flag pole for some reason. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] I think the Confederate flags should be in museums. I don't think it should be flown on public land/government land unless it's a war memorial that has museum/historical importance.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;48025557]I don't get the use of the confederate flag at all, but I think this point is kinda weak: Like, [url=http://www.britannica.com/topic/The-Founding-Fathers-and-Slavery-1269536]"the founding fathers" had slaves too y'know[/url]. Should Washington DC be renamed? It seems like a kinda arbitrary point in time, and it comes purely from the fact that the north didn't need slaves at that point - if the north were still dependent on slaves for the economy, they wouldn't have been so adamant to do away with it (and honestly they only did completely not long before the civil war). Not trying to say slavery wasn't terrible or that I think it's a good thing to name streets after confederate generals, but I do think it's a kinda arbitrary decision. Having a slave owner on the 100- or 2-dollar bill apparently isn't a problem - maybe because having slaves was normal at that point? Well, so it was in the South a hundred years later and therefore I think the point is kinda moot.[/QUOTE] I think a better argument would be driving on roads named after racist generals is kind of a hilarious "fuck you" to them.

[QUOTE=27X;48026352]Because it's illegal to lower it under almost any circumstances.[/QUOTE] Illegal or not it seems like more effort than its worth to have it permanently attached. What if it got tattered or needed to come down for other reasons. Why go though the effort of putting up that pole rather than a standard pole that's more common.

[QUOTE=Perfumly;48024632]Is subjugation of the poor by the rich any better? because that's what our current flag stands for. It's odd how violently people oppose physical slavery but allow a much more cunning form of the same song and dance continue unchecked.[/QUOTE] Haha, never mind the fact that a minimum wage worker in Texas has a much better life compared to a sex trafficking victim just several hundred miles south. You know, an actual slave. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Perfumly;48024614]People still own slaves, the cost is just $8 an hour instead of three meals and a place to sleep. And now it's all inclusive in terms of race. What is $8 an hour to someone who makes literally hundreds of millions of dollars a year? We're closer to living in the feudal age economically than we have been in a very long time[/QUOTE] You know, 8 dollars an hour would amount to a lot more if the cost of living weren't jacked up by excessive government involvement in the economy.

[QUOTE=ThaBoss;48024550]I don't get this whole "honoring people who defend their homeland", what's so honorable about defending a despicable way of living just to keep your extremely one-sided and outdated economy running?[/QUOTE] Because if you knew about slavery during those times the people FIGHTING IN THE WAR were largely not slave owners? Wanna know why? All the slave owners were comfertably sitting in their houses making money from slavework. You also had to be pretty well off to even own a slave, like pretty rich. Think about it, you "own" a human being. They needed food/clothes for absolute starters, food at the very least. Most people couldnt afford that in those days, especially since food wasnt so mass produced and pretty fucking important. Like perfumly said most people that fought in the civil war were largely people without any poilitical power and probably a lot had no idea the full reasons to fight. You really think people went to fight in the civil war in droves for "Slavery" and not for the fact its a war between your own homelands and you wanna defend yours? Why would they fight for slavery anyways when these soliders were probably poorer men/boys who would never own a slave. It doesnt help this situation to paint it so black and white. The confederate leftovers have been a big debate in America for a long time, personally I think waving the flag around yourself is super tacky and dumb, and being "Pro-Confederate" is so redundant these days that anyone who says it is just saying it to say it. Yet at the same time it is historically significant and it isnt a symbol of all these horrible things that people try to make it strictly about. Its a symbol of a lot of things and sadly Slavery was a thing the south was fighting for, but anyone who thinks the flag is outright offensive and horrible doesnt really care enough to look into the actual civil war and shit. That said I think stuff like General Lees street name is pretty stupid and being patriotic over the confederacy even dumber. Like I said earlier I think waving the flag is pretty tacky and dumb looking, and as people said earlier its almost impossible to change the full context of the flag at this point. We shouldnt be praising the confederacy at all, but we shouldnt shit all over it at the same time. We should also remember it wasnt just a bunch of southern bigoted racists vs Happyland North.

I'm up here in rural Massachusetts and we have people who slap the Confederate flag on things. Was just out to go to the post office and I saw someone with it on their license plate. I don't really understand why.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;48026589]Because if you knew about slavery during those times the people FIGHTING IN THE WAR were largely not slave owners? Wanna know why? All the slave owners were comfertably sitting in their houses making money from slavework. [/QUOTE] You could easily point at the American flag and argue for its abolishment based on its bad history. The British freed the slaves first and ended the slave trade long before America even had much of a movement against it. After the revolutionary war many slaves who had fought in the revolution for freedom ended up slaves or impoverished due to be ostracized from society. People literally fled from the freedom of the America for real freedom in the British Empire. Lets not forget all of those genocides in North-America and Asia or those random wars of aggression for American business interests. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] Shermans march to Sea, etc.

Can they even ban the flag? Maybe take it down from public poles but im pretty sure its unconstitutional to ban the flag. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=ThaBoss;48024642]The average Confederate soldier (or Union for that matter) knew perfectly well what they were fighting for, the vast majority of soldiers on both sides were (at first) eager volunteers. Sure a lot of the confederates joined to assert the independence of states and whatnot but that doesn't change the fact that the confederacy's main reason for secession was to keep slavery in place. Except for Sherman's insane march what the Union did during the war was not particularly different from how wars were fought in that era, had the Confederacy been more successful they would have probably been just as destructive.[/QUOTE] Civil war was not all about slavery. Thats what schools teach these days, (not defending racism) saying that the evil confederates wanted to rape and pillage the north, and the mighty Union came in and saved america. "History is written by the victors."

[QUOTE=General J;48024794]It still did represent an era of a state that supported racism though, even if partially. Just saying "wellll it only counted for <10% of the South" does not make it okay.[/QUOTE] Well, the regular US flag also represented an era when the country supported racism and slavery. So that's not really relevant. The vast majority of southerners who like it probably don't associate the flag directly with racism, but with independence and inner strength, kind of like Texans do with their flag. So I get the appeal, but in my opinion, the negatives outway the positives when it comes to flying the flag, especially on government buildings. It's just too associated (rightly so) with slavery and oppression. I never really liked the attachment of the south to the confederate flag. Personally, I would be embarrassed about that part of my state's history, not proud of it.

I mutch prefer the Texas and Gonzales flags for strength and independence. Never felt a passion or pride for the whole Dixie thing.

[QUOTE=OvB;48027025]I mitch prefer the Texas and Gonzales flags for strength and independence. Never felt a passion or pride for the whole Dixie thing.[/QUOTE] I prefer the original flag with 13 stars. Shit started going downhill after we let Vermont in.

[QUOTE=ThaBoss;48024719]I never said they were white supremacists, I just find the idea of honoring a black page in your country's history rather bizarre.[/QUOTE] Right? It's like framing a photograph of a shit-covered bathtub and saying "Yup, I did that. Ah, memories..."

[QUOTE=OvB;48026433]Illegal or not it seems like more effort than its worth to have it permanently attached. What if it got tattered or needed to come down for other reasons. Why go though the effort of putting up that pole rather than a standard pole that's more common.[/QUOTE] It's probably a bolt-swing flagpole. They've got a set of bolts at the bottom, you remove those, and the whole thing hinges downward.

Quick, everybody point fingers! But not at anybody responsible for the shooting. Only everyone else.

[QUOTE=Levelog;48027033]I prefer the original flag with 13 stars. Shit started going downhill after we let Vermont in.[/QUOTE] Woah now Vermont is the healthiest state [sp]but also has the highest alcoholism and heroin use[/sp] Also interesting how Vermont is one of the whitest states, next to Maine, So we're not that experienced in racial differences at all. But I have spent a lot of time in both Charleston South Carolina, and Vermont, two very contrasting states. What I feel is weird is how people are more "jokingly" racist up here, whereas in SC people sound sort of serious, or they don't joke at all.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48025227]Sorry Jon, but racism doesn't exist anymore. Didn't you get the memo? Just ask anybody who's white, middle class, and socially conservative. They'll tell you all about it. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] Not at all. A flag is a symbol of a belief system, a culture, a shared set of ideals. Given that society is dynamic, that symbol value can change over time despite the icon itself remaining the same. Today's American flag doesn't necessarily represent the same thing is yesterday's. This largely what makes flag burning a powerful symbolic gesture: it is a statement that the flag no longer represents the "true" ideals of the country and that the burner no longer recognizes it as their symbol. However, the Confederate flag never had a chance to change. It is a static symbol, because it lived and died representing a belief system that failed to evolve, because it was crushed. Like the Nazi flag, it is pretty damn impossible to separate what that flag symbolizes from its historical and cultural context.[/QUOTE] I agree with the sentiment but what an obnoxious way of saying it, especially from a moderator. Change white with black and see how bad it sounds, it's a stupid generalization and a strawman.

The flag does nothing but represent an era of separation based upon the ideals that people with different skin color were below others and enforced via a slavery caste system. You cannot idley say that the Confederate Flag and Slavery are not directly linked as for the fact that everything leading up to the Civil War, from the horrendous Supreme Court Decision, to the laws and policies put in place to avoid a civil war, combined with the fact that colonies and settlements outside of the south were specifically told they could not participate nor condone the slave trade. Every major decision that occurred up until the Civil War had slavery, and its effects and consequences as centerfold during discussions. The confederate flag represents slavery, end of.

[QUOTE=Perfumly;48024482]I believe the confederate flag is mostly to honor the men and boys who died defending their homeland from the union, more than a symbol of holding confederate beliefs. Even back then slave owners were a huge minority, and I doubt your average southerner back then was well connected enough to be political. I'm sure most had no idea why they were really fighting. Sad Not really defending its presence just playing doubles advocate[/QUOTE] I agree 100%, but I think they should've flown the flag at half staff. It seems disrespectful not to.

I'm usually 100% for people flying the stars and bars considering I don't really feel it represents anything but "I'm from the south and I like it" at this point, but it seems still in bad taste to fly it from a public building considering the feelings some people have attached to it, justified or no. Definitely should have had it at half mast, at the least.

[QUOTE=OvB;48027025]I mutch prefer the Texas and Gonzales flags for strength and independence. Never felt a passion or pride for the whole Dixie thing.[/QUOTE] The Texan war for independence was more about slavery than the American civil war. Mexico abolished slavery and Texas pretty much revolted when Mexico actually tried to enforce it. Any flag associated with that whole war could be seen as racist under the same way of thinking.

Whether or not it's a symbol of racism, the fact of the matter is the Confederacy lost the war. That should be reason enough to prohibit it from being displayed as a part of American government at all, on a local level or certainly on both state and federal levels, on public grounds. And that's reason enough to scorn individuals who fly it even on their own private land. The whole "muh heritage" argument is crap. It was an illegal rebellion, people only try and glorify its flag today when they have rebellious sentiments against the modern government (to show off to the world "I'm such a fucking rebel and such a badass"). It's got no place in today's society and no reason to be tolerated. I live in rural Missouri. I'm surrounded by idiots in the smaller outlying towns who have them flying from their houses, stuck on their trucks, and a few people I know keep them in their homes for everyone to see. It's just stupid people acting stupid, being prejudiced, etc. My family on my mother's side has lived in this state before it was even a state. During the war, several of them were Confederate sympathizers (the Tuttles, which were another branch, were Unionists), and one from Monroe County was even a part of Quantrill's Raiders and knew Bloody Bill Anderson's family from Huntsville. But you don't see us acting like that's something to be proud of.

[QUOTE=Govna;48027779]Whether or not it's a symbol of racism, the fact of the matter is the Confederacy lost the war. That should be reason enough to prohibit it from being displayed as a part of American government at all, on a local level or certainly on both state and federal levels, on public grounds. And that's reason enough to scorn individuals who fly it even on their own private land. The whole "muh heritage" argument is crap. It was an illegal rebellion, people only try and glorify its flag today when they have rebellious sentiments against the modern government (to show off to the world "I'm such a fucking rebel and such a badass"). It's got no place in today's society and no reason to be tolerated. I live in rural Missouri. I'm surrounded by idiots in the smaller outlying towns who have them flying from their houses, stuck on their trucks, and a few people I know keep them in their homes for everyone to see. It's just stupid people acting stupid, being prejudiced, etc. My family on my mother's side has lived in this state before it was even a state. During the war, several of them were Confederate sympathizers (the Tuttles, which were another branch, were Unionists), and one from Monroe County was even a part of Quantrill's Raiders and knew Bloody Bill Anderson's family from Huntsville. But you don't see us acting like that's something to be proud of.[/QUOTE] Missouri's a Yankee state anyways.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;48026589]Because if you knew about slavery during those times the people FIGHTING IN THE WAR were largely not slave owners? Wanna know why? All the slave owners were comfertably sitting in their houses making money from slavework. You also had to be pretty well off to even own a slave, like pretty rich. Think about it, you "own" a human being. They needed food/clothes for absolute starters, food at the very least. Most people couldnt afford that in those days, especially since food wasnt so mass produced and pretty fucking important. Like perfumly said most people that fought in the civil war were largely people without any poilitical power and probably a lot had no idea the full reasons to fight. You really think people went to fight in the civil war in droves for "Slavery" and not for the fact its a war between your own homelands and you wanna defend yours? Why would they fight for slavery anyways when these soliders were probably poorer men/boys who would never own a slave. It doesnt help this situation to paint it so black and white. The confederate leftovers have been a big debate in America for a long time, personally I think waving the flag around yourself is super tacky and dumb, and being "Pro-Confederate" is so redundant these days that anyone who says it is just saying it to say it. Yet at the same time it is historically significant and it isnt a symbol of all these horrible things that people try to make it strictly about. Its a symbol of a lot of things and sadly Slavery was a thing the south was fighting for, but anyone who thinks the flag is outright offensive and horrible doesnt really care enough to look into the actual civil war and shit. That said I think stuff like General Lees street name is pretty stupid and being patriotic over the confederacy even dumber. Like I said earlier I think waving the flag is pretty tacky and dumb looking, and as people said earlier its almost impossible to change the full context of the flag at this point. We shouldnt be praising the confederacy at all, but we shouldnt shit all over it at the same time. We should also remember it wasnt just a bunch of southern bigoted racists vs Happyland North.[/QUOTE] You do not have to be a slave owner to be in support of slavery, yes slave owners would have been staying home and i never claimed otherwise. And the whole tragic idea of soldiers in the war being young kids fighting for reasons unknown has been long debunked. The majority on both sides were volunteers who knew damn well why they were fighting. Now for many confederates a motivation would have been defending their homeland but [I]that's my point[/I]. They were defending a homeland that was thoroughly rotten and relied on a by then long morally unacceptable economic system to survive, so why should we regard them as heroes? The Confederacy existed and seceded entirely to keep slavery intact, yes individual motivations for soldiers would have varied but that's not ultimately my point. They in the end still fought to protect slavery and the slave owners. Going to pull a Godwin here but compare this to the Wehrmacht in the second world war, your average German soldier was not a Nazi (though probably antisemitic) and would have had many motivations to fight such as revenge etc. but that does not change the fact they ultimately fought for a regime that would have been extremely destructive if they were victorious and could have implemented the full range of their plans.

[QUOTE=bunguer;48027334]I agree with the sentiment but what an obnoxious way of saying it, especially from a moderator. Change white with black and see how bad it sounds, it's a stupid generalization and a strawman.[/QUOTE] I literally have no idea what it is you're criticizing here. Who or what am I "strawmanning?" In what way am I being obnoxious? The only point that I was trying to make with my initial statement was that the people most likely to claim that racism isn't is dead are those least likely to be affected by it. The second point was that a flag is nothing but a symbol, and that symbols are a dynamic thing. So, uh, care to elaborate a bit? 'Cause I'm a bit confused about how any of that was inappropriate.

People do have the right to their Confederate battle flag decals, because of freedom of speech. And while I personally find it tasteless, I'm aware that a good number of these people have completely dissociated it from racism in their minds and that it's all about being a tough rebel to them. These are often the same people who insist the war was about state rights, which is misinformed but not inherently malicious. And it's also true that the soldiers dying on the battle fields weren't the rich slave-owners who initiated the war. But I really can't comprehend government buildings flying the flag. It seems entirely inappropriate on multiple levels and I don't see how it can be justified.