Jon Stewart points out hypocrisy in the Charleston church massacre + Why Is the Confederate Flag Sti - Polidicks

[QUOTE=BlueChihuahua;48028030]People do have the right to their Confederate battle flag decals, because of freedom of speech. And while I personally find it tasteless, I'm aware that a good number of these people have completely dissociated it from racism in their minds and that it's all about being a tough rebel to them. These are often the same people who insist the war was about state rights, which is misinformed but not inherently malicious. And it's also true that the soldiers dying on the battle fields weren't the rich slave-owners who initiated the war. But I really can't comprehend government buildings flying the flag. It seems entirely inappropriate on multiple levels and I don't see how it can be justified.[/QUOTE] I have it because I'm reenactor. I don't even have the Battle Cross, I have the old Stars and Bars alongside a Virginia state flag.

it's all over the news but the governor of south carolina has called for the confederate flag to be removed [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] idk if that's just a very formal way of summoning the janitor to the flag pole or what but there it is

[QUOTE=LegndNikko;48024885]If flags didn't matter, they wouldn't be used as they did. A flag represents a factions ideals. When you wave a Confederate flag, you're saying "I support the Confederacy's ideals."[/QUOTE] I disagree, a flag represents a nation, state, or organization. The article's classification of a flag is flat-out wrong. Saying that the Confederate flag represents slavery and white supremacist beliefs would be similar to saying the American flag represents indian genocide or drone strikes against innocent people. Despite the fact the flag is sometimes used today by racists and was used during the Confederacy's downfall when slavery was legal, it is not right to exclusively tie the flag to pro-slavery sentiment. If America was suddenly annexed by Canada (or whoever) because we did something terrible to them, I would still fly an American flag because despite the many mistakes we've made I love my country.

[QUOTE=andrewmcwatters;48026304]i thought this was due to an inability to do it i heard the flag wasn't on a line, it was just mounted on the top of the pole[/QUOTE] One good solution would have been to cut through the pole with a blowtorch half way up and then just leave it like that forever

[QUOTE=andrewmcwatters;48026304]i thought this was due to an inability to do it i heard the flag wasn't on a line, it was just mounted on the top of the pole[/QUOTE] Yea usually when we fly the flag at our reenactments we don't have fancy flagpoles like the Yankees. We tie it to a bedpost or a big stick usually.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48028017]I literally have no idea what it is you're criticizing here. Who or what am I "strawmanning?" In what way am I being obnoxious? The only point that I was trying to make with my initial statement was that the people most likely to claim that racism isn't is dead are those least likely to be affected by it. The second point was that a flag is nothing but a symbol, and that symbols are a dynamic thing. So, uh, care to elaborate a bit? 'Cause I'm a bit confused about how any of that was inappropriate.[/QUOTE] You are being obnoxious because you literally made an argument against "racism doesn't exist anymore" when no one said anything like that - aka the definition of strawman. Not only that, but you went ahead and directed that attack to "anybody who's white, middle class and socially conservative" as if that wasn't a bad enough generalization, talk about being hypocrite in a thread about racism. If you don't understand why saying things like that, especially as a moderator, adds fuel to an already charged issue I don't know how to elaborate it further.

[QUOTE=Kommodore;48028599]it's all over the news but the governor of south carolina has called for the confederate flag to be removed [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] idk if that's just a very formal way of summoning the janitor to the flag pole or what but there it is[/QUOTE] "Mister Johnson! Tear down this flag!" "Um... okay, but my name's not Johnson..."

[QUOTE=bunguer;48028808]You are being obnoxious because you literally made an argument against "racism doesn't exist anymore" when no one said anything like that - aka the definition of strawman. Not only that, but you went ahead and directed that attack to "anybody who's white, middle class and socially conservative" as if that wasn't a bad enough generalization, talk about being hypocrite in a thread about racism. If you don't understand why saying things like that, especially as a moderator, adds fuel to an already charged issue I don't know how to elaborate it further.[/QUOTE] He wasn't referring to people in this topic or even people on Facepunch. He was more referring to the type of person who watches Fox News (which definitely pushes the narrative that racism no longer exists).

[QUOTE=bunguer;48028808]You are being obnoxious because you literally made an argument against "racism doesn't exist anymore" when no one said anything like that - aka the definition of strawman. Not only that, but you went ahead and directed that attack to "anybody who's white, middle class and socially conservative" as if that wasn't a bad enough generalization, talk about being hypocrite in a thread about racism. If you don't understand why saying things like that, especially as a moderator, adds fuel to an already charged issue I don't know how to elaborate it further.[/QUOTE] "What is satire?" "Correct!" "Sensationalist Headlines for 800."

the civil war has got to be the only one where people seem to think that giving importance to the dead means you have to completely ignore the reason why it was waged in the first place and the symbolism behind it i don't see anybody going "oh but not all germans were nazis so there's nothing wrong with flying the nazi flag to honor their dead"

[QUOTE=Kommodore;48028599]it's all over the news but the governor of south carolina has called for the confederate flag to be removed [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] idk if that's just a very formal way of summoning the janitor to the flag pole or what but there it is[/QUOTE] Apparently the notion requires approval within the state's government at a rate of 2/3rds. This is law. It's worth noting that the flag was put up in the ~50s/60s during the civil rights movement. There can be no excuse for keeping it with that in mind.

[QUOTE=BlueChihuahua;48029570]Apparently the notion requires approval within the state's government at a rate of 2/3rds. This is law. It's worth noting that the flag was put up in the ~50s/60s during the civil rights movement. There can be no excuse for keeping it with that in mind.[/QUOTE] Is it a battle flag or a state flag? A battle flag should only really be flown in battle.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48028017]I literally have no idea what it is you're criticizing here. Who or what am I "strawmanning?" In what way am I being obnoxious? The only point that I was trying to make with my initial statement was that the people most likely to claim that racism isn't is dead are those least likely to be affected by it. The second point was that a flag is nothing but a symbol, and that symbols are a dynamic thing. So, uh, care to elaborate a bit? 'Cause I'm a bit confused about how any of that was inappropriate.[/QUOTE] I think it's inappropriate that you use prejudice to describe issues with racial discussions. That's literally what you should [I]not[/I] do, if anything. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] I know it's satire, but that's inappropriate satire. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;48025420]i think he does understand what satire is but does not appreciate the sentiment behind bda's statement[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Moustacheman;48029639]Is it a battle flag or a state flag? A battle flag should only really be flown in battle.[/QUOTE] You can read some basic information here: [url]http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jun/22/eugene-robinson/confederate-flag-wasnt-flown-south-carolina-state-/[/url] They did not raise it for the sake of heritage, except maybe racist heritage. Again, I understand the flag doesn't mean that to everyone. But it being hung from a government building is unacceptable, especially under the circumstances it was raised for.

[QUOTE=Moustacheman;48029639]Is it a battle flag or a state flag? A battle flag should only really be flown in battle.[/QUOTE] The flag in question, and the flag everyone calls the "confederate flag" is the battle flag. The CSA's flag was 2 red stripes, 1 white stripe, with 13 stars in a circle in the same layout as the USA flag.

I more upset that they use the wrong flag. [IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_%281861-1863%29.svg/270px-Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_%281861-1863%29.svg.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=BlueChihuahua;48029680]You can read some basic information here: [url]http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jun/22/eugene-robinson/confederate-flag-wasnt-flown-south-carolina-state-/[/url] They did not raise it for the sake of heritage, except maybe racist heritage. Again, I understand the flag doesn't mean that to everyone. But it being hung from a government building is unacceptable, especially under the circumstances it was raised for.[/QUOTE] That's a battle flag, not a state flag. If you're going to fly the flag for heritage, go with either the Stars and Bars or the '63 Ensign version. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=OvB;48029771]The flag in question, and the flag everyone calls the "confederate flag" is the battle flag. The CSA's flag was 2 red stripes, 1 white stripe, with 13 stars in a circle in the same layout as the USA flag.[/QUOTE] I know, I own one.

I don't see how people aren't understanding why it is this [I]specific flag[/I] that is of issue. I don't give half a shit if someone wants to put a CSA flag sticker on their bumper or fly it off the back of their lifted truck. I don't care if people want to fly it in their front yard or wear shirts of it - I don't care if Walmart wants to sell shirts of it, I don't care about any of that. It's an issue because a [I]governmental institution[/I] is hoisting a flag that is STRONGLY related to racism and white supremacy. You can argue minor semantics all you want. Yes, it wasn't actually the Confederacy's flag - it was just the flag of an army that fought to keep the institution of slavery alive. It's just a symbol of southern heritage and the lives lost in the Civil War! No. It's not. It's a symbol of racism and white supremacy. It's a symbol of the lives lost for the primary reason of preventing black people from having equal human rights to whites. It's a symbol appropriated and popularized by the KKK for the sole reason of expressing white supremacy and proud racism. And it's flying above the SC state capital. And it wasn't even put at half mast when a racist man committed a hate-inspired shooting spree while the rest of the flags were. It's in absolute poor taste and it's an embarrassment to the state that it's been flown for so long.

[IMG]http://imgfave-herokuapp-com.global.ssl.fastly.net/image_cache/1382865305586163.png[/IMG] [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Image macro" - Craptasket))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=.Isak.;48029973]I don't see how people aren't understanding why it is this [I]specific flag[/I] that is of issue. I don't give half a shit if someone wants to put a CSA flag sticker on their bumper or fly it off the back of their lifted truck. I don't care if people want to fly it in their front yard or wear shirts of it - I don't care if Walmart wants to sell shirts of it, I don't care about any of that. It's an issue because a [I]governmental institution[/I] is hoisting a flag that is STRONGLY related to racism and white supremacy. You can argue minor semantics all you want. Yes, it wasn't actually the Confederacy's flag - it was just the flag of an army that fought to keep the institution of slavery alive. It's just a symbol of southern heritage and the lives lost in the Civil War! No. It's not. It's a symbol of racism and white supremacy. It's a symbol of the lives lost for the primary reason of preventing black people from having equal human rights to whites. It's a symbol appropriated and popularized by the KKK for the sole reason of expressing white supremacy and proud racism. And it's flying above the SC state capital. And it wasn't even put at half mast when a racist man committed a hate-inspired shooting spree while the rest of the flags were. It's in absolute poor taste and it's an embarrassment to the state that it's been flown for so long.[/QUOTE] What about reenactors, though? [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] Sorry about talking about reenacting so much lately I'm just super excited for Gettysburg.

[QUOTE=Moustacheman;48030028]What about reenactors, though?[/QUOTE] Again, that's totally different - it's a historical practice from when confederate flags were actually used. It's an artistic act. It's the same reason I have no problems with Nazi flags being used in Inglourious Basterds or Wolfenstein, and the same reason I don't mind Confederate flags in civil war films. There's a big difference between civil war reenactments and the government flying a racist flag as a permanent fixture for "heritage" reasons. One is artistic expression and historical and of educational value, the other is glorification of a symbol that should absolutely not be glorified by a government. Private companies, individuals, and such - zero issue, that's your free speech right.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;48030053]Again, that's totally different - it's a historical practice from when confederate flags were actually used. It's an artistic act. It's the same reason I have no problems with Nazi flags being used in Inglourious Basterds or Wolfenstein, and the same reason I don't mind Confederate flags in civil war films. There's a big difference between civil war reenactments and the government flying a racist flag as a permanent fixture for "heritage" reasons. One is artistic expression and historical and of educational value, the other is glorification of a symbol that should absolutely not be glorified by a government. Private companies, individuals, and such - zero issue, that's your free speech right.[/QUOTE] I understand entirely and honestly agree. I'm a rebel through and through, but feel that flying the battle flag over the state building is pretty disrespectful both to the people killed recently and to the memories of soldiers who died in South Carolina. If you really want to fly a Confederate flag, make it the Stars and Bars, not the Cross. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] Or the Bonnie Blue. The Bonnie Blue is nice.

[quote]I'm a rebel through and through[/quote] Moustacheman you realize you're taking the losing side of a war in 2015 that ended in 1865 right

[QUOTE=Starpluck;48024676]I wonder if a sizable portion of people who boast the Confederate Flag possess subtle and hidden racist beliefs, but are also among the same people who are quick to point out that it is has nothing to do with racism or supremacy.[/QUOTE] Oh, I get it, this is one of those "only a racist would deny they are racist" things. [editline]23rd June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=LegndNikko;48024946]It's literally nothing like that. American ideals changed over the years. Flying an American flag doesn't imply any of those things, but it means you support whatever conflict or policies they enforce, now. Britain was harshly against Germany during the time the Bombing of Dresden happened. If you flew a Union Jack at that time, it'd be pretty safe to assume you were against Germany. If you fly one now, are you still against Germany? Fuck no, because ideals changed over the years. The Confederacy was born and died on the same ideals, so the ideals of the Confederate flag never changed.[/QUOTE] Yeah, like how the Duke boys would ride the General Lee around, enslaving blacks and fighting the Tariff of Abominations.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;48031251]Moustacheman you realize you're taking the losing side of a war in 2015 that ended in 1865 right[/QUOTE] Yes but I'm on the losing side of a lot of wars both physical and mental. It's a family tradition to lose wars or get fucked over in the ones we won. [editline]23rd June 2015[/editline] For instance I also reenact Black Watch in American Revolution and 92nd Gordon Highlanders for Napoleonic (when I actually get the chance. Haven't done a Napoleonic in a while.) I do WWI rarely and basically emulate my great somethings granddad "Howlin' Mad" McCleod. He got that nickname because he yelled a lot and was also fucked in the head.

The confederate flag has been okay for like 150 years now, but now a guy shoots up a church and now it has to be banned? Doesn't anyone else find that a little weird? What will banning the flag possibly achieve other than making southerners angry?

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;48031748]The confederate flag has been okay for like 150 years now, but now a guy shoots up a church and now it has to be banned? Doesn't anyone else find that a little weird? What will banning the flag possibly achieve other than making southerners angry?[/QUOTE] They're not banning it. They're requesting that the South Carolina State legislature take down a Confederate Battle Flag replica that was raised in the '50s to show support for segregation. Like I said, if they want to fly a flag for historical reasons, fly the Stars and Bars, the '63 Ensign, or the Bonnie Blue. The Battle Flag has to many poor connotations attached to it to excuse a US State government building to be flying it. At the very least they could've put it at half-staff. [editline]23rd June 2015[/editline] People might be wondering what I mean by '63 Ensign. I mean this flag. [t]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_%281863-1865%29.svg[/t] It's also called the Stainless Banner. It uses the Battle Flag as an ensign and actually was flown, but not until late into the war. I know a few units that use it because they're meant to portray units that were established after Gettysburg or around 1863, hence they would use a newer, more official flag instead of the more rag-tag battle flags the older units had. There's also the Blood Stained Banner which no one really uses because it wasn't adopted until 1865, and is literally just the Stainless Banner with a red stripe on it. Funny story, the reason for the Blood Stained Banner was because of complaints the the Stainless Banner was "to white" and was often mistaken as a flag of truce or surrender. To fix this, they put a red stripe on the flag so that if the Cross was hidden, the red would still be visible. [editline]23rd June 2015[/editline] Actually South Carolina had their own secessionist flag why don't they just fly that?

[QUOTE=Swilly;48027469]The flag does nothing but represent an era of separation based upon the [B]ideals that people with different skin color were below others and enforced via a slavery caste system.[/B] You cannot idley say that the Confederate Flag and Slavery are not directly linked as for the fact that everything leading up to the Civil War, from the horrendous Supreme Court Decision, to the laws and policies put in place to avoid a civil war, combined with the fact that colonies and settlements outside of the south were specifically told they could not participate nor condone the slave trade. Every major decision that occurred up until the Civil War had slavery, and its effects and consequences as centerfold during discussions. The confederate flag represents slavery, end of.[/QUOTE] The majority of the population in the north and south was still highly racist, and anyone who actually advocated equal rights for all was in a very very small vocal minority.

Fellow Johnny Reb here. It's probably been said in these discussions but I would like to repeat it just the same; the flag in question was flown over the SC state house until 2000, when in a compromise it was moved to its current position, which is on a Civil War monumnet on the lawn of the capital building. It isn't just flying without context but as part of a memorial, of which many like it exist throughout the South. My city has a statue in honor of the men of my county that fought, of which 2 are my direct ancestors, though we do not have a flag accompanying it. I used to be ambivalent towards the war between the states until I learned about my family's history and that my hometown was burned by Sherman's forces. When history becomes personal it means more. To sum it up, I sympathize quite those whose family history causes them to loathe the Dixie flag and at the same time my family's causes me to look at it in a different light.

[QUOTE=Coppermoss;48032585]Fellow Johnny Reb here. It's probably been said in these discussions but I would like to repeat it just the same; the flag in question was flown over the SC state house until 2000, when in a compromise it was moved to its current position, which is on a Civil War monumnet on the lawn of the capital building. It isn't just flying without context but as part of a memorial, of which many like it exist throughout the South. My city has a statue in honor of the men of my county that fought, of which 2 are my direct ancestors, though we do not have a flag accompanying it. I used to be ambivalent towards the war between the states until I learned about my family's history and that my hometown was burned by Sherman's forces. When history becomes personal it means more. To sum it up, I sympathize quite those whose family history causes them to loathe the Dixie flag and at the same time my family's causes me to look at it in a different light.[/QUOTE] I still don't think it's appropriate for a government to be flying the flag of a losing side of a racist war of a country that is no longer in existence and that was created in rebellion of the current government for reasons involving the subjugation of an entire race of people. It's meant to respect the soldiers that lost their lives - that is understood, but in doing so it disrespects the people that those soldiers were fighting to enslave. It disrespects not only those millions of people, but also their descendants. I just think that remembering the soldiers can be done without glorifying a symbol that has been appropriated by the KKK and is most known for encouraging racism and white supremacy. Make war memorials, do shit like that - just don't fly a flag that represents racism to many as a form of "respect" to fallen soldiers. You don't see Russian government offices and monuments flying Soviet flags in remembrance of the soldiers that helped enact Holodomor, you don't see German government offices and monuments flying Nazi flags in remembrance of the soldiers that helped run Auschwitz - why should black Americans (or any Americans) stand for the glorification of a symbol that stands for the people that would fight and die to keep them from having human rights and free will?