Jon Stewart points out hypocrisy in the Charleston church massacre + Why Is the Confederate Flag Sti - Polidicks

[QUOTE=andrewmcwatters;48029643]I think it's inappropriate that you use prejudice to describe issues with racial discussions. That's literally what you should [I]not[/I] do, if anything. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] I know it's satire, but that's inappropriate satire. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline][/QUOTE] White, wealthy, and socially conservative Americans are, as a generalized group, the least likely demographic to have a realistic perspective on race relations because their belief systems [socially conservative], lack of experience and exposure to poverty [middle class], and racial majority background [white] leave them poorly inclined and poorly positioned to consider and/or witness alternative social narratives. Pointing that out is in no way being racist or prejudicial, at least no more than saying that black, poor, and socially liberal Americans are unlikely to make the same argument for the same reasons. Beyond that, yeah, it was obviously a generalized and offhanded satirical statement. To any white, middle-class, socially conservative Americans who might be reading this who AREN'T ignorant of the reasons behind the racial schism in this country: cool!

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48041662]White, wealthy, and socially conservative Americans are, as a generalized group, the least likely demographic to have a realistic perspective on race relations because their belief systems [socially conservative], lack of experience and exposure to poverty [middle class], and racial majority background [white] leave them poorly inclined and poorly positioned to consider and/or witness alternative social narratives. Pointing that out is in no way being racist or prejudicial, at least no more than saying that black, poor, and socially liberal Americans are unlikely to make the same argument for the same reasons. Beyond that, yeah, it was obviously a generalized and offhanded satirical statement. To any white, middle-class, socially conservative Americans who might be reading this who AREN'T ignorant of the reasons behind the racial schism in this country: cool![/QUOTE] Your generalization is stupid and doesnt help anything though. Its just another person throwing more shit around about race. Congrats, you figured out if you say someone is white, wealthy, and socially conservative in an example then they would be white, wealthy, and socially conservative for your point. What about literally everyone and everything else?

[QUOTE=.Isak.;48032645]I still don't think it's appropriate for a government to be flying the flag of a losing side of a racist war of a country that is no longer in existence and that was created in rebellion of the current government for reasons involving the subjugation of an entire race of people. It's meant to respect the soldiers that lost their lives - that is understood, but in doing so it disrespects the people that those soldiers were fighting to enslave. It disrespects not only those millions of people, but also their descendants. I just think that remembering the soldiers can be done without glorifying a symbol that has been appropriated by the KKK and is most known for encouraging racism and white supremacy. Make war memorials, do shit like that - just don't fly a flag that represents racism to many as a form of "respect" to fallen soldiers. You don't see Russian government offices and monuments flying Soviet flags in remembrance of the soldiers that helped enact Holodomor, you don't see German government offices and monuments flying Nazi flags in remembrance of the soldiers that helped run Auschwitz - why should black Americans (or any Americans) stand for the glorification of a symbol that stands for the people that would fight and die to keep them from having human rights and free will?[/QUOTE] You keep talking about a "racist war". SLAVERY was an issue in the civil war, not necessarily racism (although the vast majority of the ENTIRE country was racist). Confederate Constitution, Article 1, Section 9: [QUOTE]1. The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country, other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same. 2. Congress shall also have power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy.[/QUOTE] The confederacy wasn't fighting to keep enslaving black people, but to keep slavery as an institution. It's why they banned the import of new black slaves. Keeping slavery, as an institution, meant that they could keep using slaves of ANY race, which they did. It's why they banned the import of new black slaves. It was about the cheap labor, not the color of the skin.

The entire country was racist at that time. General Sherman didn't really care for black people much. [quote]“All the congresses on earth can’t make the negro anything else than what he is; he must be subject to the white man,” Sherman wrote his wife in 1860. “Two such races cannot live in harmony save as master and slave.” In a letter to his antislavery brother-in-law about plans to bring his family to Louisiana, Sherman crassly joked about becoming a slave master himself. Making light of the problems he anticipated in keeping white servants, he wrote that his wife Ellen “will have to wait on herself or buy a nigger. What will you think of that — our buying niggers?”[/quote] [url]http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2012/01/17/shermans-southern-sympathies/?_r=0&referrer=[/url] The north was not free of racism or slavery or guilt for that big stain on American history that is still the bloodiest war in American history that saw brothers killing brothers.

Sherman also laughed off severe Union war crimes with "war is hell"

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;48025426]The flag was never the official flag of the Confederate States of America. They never actually flew that flag. The flag was actually rejected in the 1860s. The only reason that it became popular is because the KKK took the design and began using it and popularizing it long after the war was over in the 1940s and 50s. So yeah, it basically only exists because a racist group wanted to use it as a racist symbol. Its mere existence in modern society is an inherently racist thing.[/QUOTE] This is a very good point and makes the argument of "heritage, not hate" null and void in my eyes.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;48042840]This is a very good point and makes the argument of "heritage, not hate" null and void in my eyes.[/QUOTE] Except that is a half-truth at best. It's the battle flag of a particular Confederate military unit which was later adopted in an unofficial capacity by units across the Confederacy. It was modified slightly (squared off) and then used against a white field for the national flag. [img]http://i.imgur.com/THpU3Ar.jpg[/img] The full-size version of that pattern in rectangular form was also used, it just wasn't a political flag.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48042865]Except that is a half-truth at best. It's the battle flag of a particular Confederate military unit which was later adopted in an unofficial capacity by units across the Confederacy. It was modified slightly (squared off) and then used against a white field for the national flag. [img]http://i.imgur.com/THpU3Ar.jpg[/img] The full-size version of that pattern in rectangular form was also used, it just wasn't a political flag.[/QUOTE] The rectangular one is the Naval Jack. That's the one people use to represent southern pride and rebellion. It's also the version that was used (alongside the actual American Flag, mind you) by racist groups. (apparently, I can't thumb...) Battle flag: [IMG]http://myimages.bravenet.com/114/408/106/5/3rdxIssuexANVxBattleflag.JPG[/IMG] Naval Jack: [IMG]http://www.usflags.com/images/thumbs/0002668.jpeg[/IMG]

The thing is that both were used interchangeably based on what was available so it's a bit pointless to make a distinction in this context at least

[QUOTE=Perfumly;48024614]People still own slaves, the cost is just $8 an hour instead of three meals and a place to sleep. And now it's all inclusive in terms of race. What is $8 an hour to someone who makes literally hundreds of millions of dollars a year? We're closer to living in the feudal age economically than we have been in a very long time[/QUOTE] You just brought something completely unrelated into this. [editline]24th June 2015[/editline] I personally live in Georgia, so there are quite a few who still wear this flag on shirts or hats or have it in their cars or something. I've asked many people about it and they apparently have no idea about the historical meaning behind it. They just have it to have it. In a way that's just as bad as flying it as a symbol of racism or supremacy. You're flying a flag that you have no idea of the meaning behind.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48042779]Sherman also laughed off severe Union war crimes with "war is hell"[/QUOTE] Could you please show us the quote wherein he laughed off his war crimes?

[QUOTE=Mingebox;48042977]Could you please show us the quote wherein he laughed off his war crimes?[/QUOTE] Here's some examples [quote]War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.[/quote] [quote]War is hell.[/quote] [quote]If the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war, and not popularity seeking.[/quote] [quote]My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.[/quote] [quote]This war differs from other wars, in this particular. We are not fighting armies but a hostile people, and must make old and young, rich and poor, feel the hard hand of war.[/quote] [quote]I would make this war as severe as possible, and show no symptoms of tiring till the South begs for mercy.[/quote] [quote]I intend to make Georgia howl.[/quote] Do you want me to Tivo it or something?

I don't see him laughing, nor the actual context for the "war is hell" quote.

[quote]Ha ha ha[/quote]

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;48042324]Your generalization is stupid and doesnt help anything though. Its just another person throwing more shit around about race. Congrats, you figured out if you say someone is white, wealthy, and socially conservative in an example then they would be white, wealthy, and socially conservative for your point. What about literally everyone and everything else?[/QUOTE] What's your point? I called out white, middle class (or higher), socially conservative Americans because they represent a majority demographic in this country, and one at the forefront of race-relations issues in public perception. Should I pretend that bananas are blue in a discussion about yellow fruit? Pretend that there is no racial schism, and that even if there were, that wealth, race, and cultural systems play no role in it? Like, alright man! Sure thing!

[QUOTE=Perfumly;48024581]As stated, the majority of southerners were not slave owners - and again - many were not fighting for political ideals. The union used some pretty brutal tactics against the confederate states that harmed not only soldiers but also a lot of civilians. Have some empathy, you think a 14 year old boy on the front line was thinking "oh man I can't wait to kill these Union soldiers so I can own all of the niggers"[/QUOTE] No, he was thinking "I need to defend my property, the Union's coming to take my property. The planter man said they comin to take his slaves, then they comin to take my family's land, then they gonna take my wife too. And they gonna give it to a nigger and make me a slave." Because that's what they were told. They were told that the Union was going to destroy property and enslave whites. Does it suck that many people were thrown into a war? Yeah, that always sucks. But you should seriously consider a different symbol for the South than one so tainted with the blood of slavery and racism as to be indistinguishable for most of the country.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48043368]What's your point? I called out white, middle class (or higher), socially conservative Americans because they represent a majority demographic in this country, and one at the forefront of race-relations issues in public perception. Should I pretend that bananas are blue in a discussion about yellow fruit? Pretend that there is no racial schism, and that even if there were, that wealth, race, and cultural systems play no role in it? Like, alright man! Sure thing![/QUOTE] My point is your generalization is about as useful as saying "White trash rednecks in the south are white trash rednecks in the south" I dont know where you going with this pretend stuff though.

To put the scale of this war into perspective, more confederate soldiers died than American soldiers in Vietnam. The Union lost more. Between the two armies they were a few hundred thousand away from a million deaths in total. Not northerners or southerners, but Americans killing Americans. ~600,000-850,000 Americans shot each other to death in a matter of 4 years. I like the south, I like the southern way of life. I get all that. But I see no reason to use symbols from that war to show that pride. The south was ultimately on the wrong side of history and a lot of bystanders died for it. There's nothing to be proud about there. Both sides committed atrocities and it's a dark time in our history. I don't think the flag should be banned from sale or banned on any products in any capacity. However I don't think it should be flown on government buildings or property. It should seen as an artifact of a dark time and used in that regard, it should be a reminder of our past. It [I]should[/I] be on display at a civil war grave site, a war museum, or folded next to a picture of your great great grandfather that died in that war. That flag is stained in blood from a time when we systematically killed ourselves, and I see it as a reminder of that more than a symbol of racism or pride.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48042865]Except that is a half-truth at best. It's the battle flag of a particular Confederate military unit which was later adopted in an unofficial capacity by units across the Confederacy. It was modified slightly (squared off) and then used against a white field for the national flag. [img]http://i.imgur.com/THpU3Ar.jpg[/img] The full-size version of that pattern in rectangular form was also used, it just wasn't a political flag.[/QUOTE] Yeah but the KKK are still the ones who brought it back in use.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;48043517]My point is your generalization is about as useful as saying "White trash rednecks in the south are white trash rednecks in the south" I dont know where you going with this pretend stuff though.[/QUOTE] Ah, misunderstood you. I thought you were attempting to argue that race, class, and cultural systems were somehow irrelevant when discussing racism. My mistake, man.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48044145]Ah, misunderstood you. I thought you were attempting to argue that race, class, and cultural systems were somehow irrelevant when discussing racism. My mistake, man.[/QUOTE] No, in fact I believe those things like class/cultural system/location are 100x more the cause for all the things than race. Only reason theirs so much black crime because so many blacks live in impoverished shitty areas or straight up ghettos If you could just reverse the fact they were black skinned to white skinned I bet you it would hardly be any different aside from that racial stigma(not reversing history just skin)because people would still be in that same situation and lifestyle. Its not like this problem only exists in America and only black people. China has similar shit. Russia as well. Pretty much any country anywhere that has a group of people living in poverty in shitty locations. Actually Middle East is probably by far the best example. Instead of gang members(as we know in USA) those kids their are getting sucked into the terrorist and extremist type shit in their countries, because they are being brought up in shitty places. Their race really means fuck all when it comes to becoming that way. Not to say race doesnt play a part in these things, black kids could hear from people that black kids are just supposed to be gangbangers, or could get sucked into gang life by their peers for being black which will end you up in a shitty life.