[QUOTE=scout1;41593820]Today we say 90 is too old. Tomorrow it is 89, and the day after 88...[/QUOTE]
OK, let's say that we find a 90-something old nazi war criminal. His trial and related process lasts, let's say, 2 years. He is 90-something when he is found guilty, and sentenced to jail for the rest of his life.
This is what happens: he is old, as in really-fucking-old. The law estates that old prisoners CAN get out of jail, and get a lesser sentence. What do we do? Obviously, we can keep them in jail, and reject their pleas. No problems, yet.
BUT, they're old, and fragile. They're going to get sick. Obviously, we want them to stay in jail as long as possible. So, we keep them in our top hospitals to keep them alive and well. BUT, they're now getting free top medical care, and not even expending time in jail. What do we do? We can say "Fuck them" and send them back to prison. BUT that's illegal, for prisoners must be treated fairly and humanly, regardless of their crimes. Oh, you can say "But they're special criminals, they MUST be treated like shit!", so go on, make an exception. BUT, now you're going agains't their human rights. In the end, they die peacefully on a hospital bed, after spending like one or two years in jail, without paying any cents for their free medical treatment.
Oh, and I love that last sentence of yours. The law estates that old prisoners get a special treatment. I'm no lawyer to know the exact details, but it's there.
Also, it makes you look like a huge idiot.
[QUOTE=T553412;41593910]OK, let's say that we find a 90-something old nazi war criminal. His trial and related process lasts, let's say, 2 years. He is 90-something when he is found guilty, and sentenced to jail for the rest of his life.
This is what happens: he is old, as in really-fucking-old. The law estates that old prisoners CAN get out of jail, and get a lesser sentence. What do we do? Obviously, we can keep them in jail, and reject their pleas. No problems, yet.
BUT, they're old, and fragile. They're going to get sick. Obviously, we want them to stay in jail as long as possible. So, we keep them in our top hospitals to keep them alive and well. BUT, they're now getting free top medical care, and not even expending time in jail. What do we do? We can say "Fuck them" and send them back to prison. BUT that's illegal, for prisoners must be treated fairly and humanly, regardless of their crimes. Oh, you can say "But they're special criminals, they MUST be treated like shit!", so go on, make an exception. BUT, now you're going agains't their human rights. In the end, they die peacefully on a hospital bed, after spending like one or two years in jail, without paying any cents for their free medical treatment.
Oh, and I love that last sentence of yours. The law estates that old prisoners get a special treatment. I'm no lawyer to know the exact details, but it's there.
Also, it makes you look like a huge idiot.[/QUOTE]
You forgot the part where they get pardoned due to old age and released. At which point I hope they go home and live a boring, sad life.
[editline]25th July 2013[/editline]
Just to head you off: I mean boring and sad as in not filled with more murders. As in normal.
[QUOTE=scout1;41593925]You forgot the part where they get pardoned due to old age and released. At which point I hope they go home and live a boring, sad life.[/QUOTE]
Hmm...pardon...if they are jailed in a country whose government has a few pro-nazis inside, is possible.
Today, those chances are REALLY small, however. It'd be a political suicide.
[QUOTE=T553412;41593965]Hmm...pardon...if they are jailed in a country whose government has a few pro-nazis inside, is possible.
Today, those chances are REALLY small, however. It'd be a political suicide.[/QUOTE]
Nah bad health gets all sorts of people out of prison. Matter of practical necessity.
[QUOTE=scout1;41594040]Nah bad health gets all sorts of people out of prison. Matter of practical necessity.[/QUOTE]
Well, there are reasons for there is party and a green of Nazi. Whereas I think and the make matters of personal stature, there are for no conceivables and that. You may be thinking "gee, why should I for the pardon?", to which I can only response "and the yes no prison."
It's hopeless really, if we were to every single and negotiate with terrorists.
[QUOTE=scout1;41593851]Yes. My "jimmies got rustled". That is clearly the only reason I support the notion of a trial for war criminals. Not the fact that is a truly heinous crime that is internationally policed.[/QUOTE]
Then have the UN or Interpol prosecute them. The US has no business prosecuting international criminals unless they are assisting investigation.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;41595386]Then have the UN or Interpol prosecute them. The US has no business prosecuting international criminals unless they are assisting investigation.[/QUOTE]
I don't give a fuck if the US prosecutes them. Usually we deport them to Germany for it anyway. I care that they are tried.
[QUOTE=Nazi666;41560746]Not really. Say. How do you feel about this?
[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-eOdRtsupYRQ/URomMWTkhiI/AAAAAAAABpI/EFLfN2P_5UI/s1600/rape-german-soldiers-france-russia-ww2-006.jpg[/img]
German soldiers raping a Ukrainian girl (the actual rape is censored for your protection.)
[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-N4TGD5QV0J8/UDXag1DNRmI/AAAAAAAAAjs/VQuMG64sBIs/s640/polish-women-kidnapped-by-germans-work-in-brothels-ww2.jpg[/img]
German soldiers forcing polish women to work in Brothels.
A story of what happened in Poland by a Red Cross man.
Another story.
[url]http://uncensoredhistory.blogspot.com/2012/08/rape-by-german-and-waffen-ss-soldiers.html[/url]
And you dare support these monsters? You're sick.[/QUOTE]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Schindler] This guy was in the Nazi party[/url]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Plagge#Early_involvement.2C_later_disenchantment]So was this guy[/url]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_G%C3%B6ring#Anti-Nazi_activity]This guy was the brother of a leading nazi party member and the head of the luftwaffe[/url]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilm_Hosenfeld]This guy was in the Wehrmacht[/url]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Battel]So was this guy[/url]
And this is just a handful of guys, there are much more that people probably haven't even heard about.
[QUOTE=Araknid;41600017][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Schindler] This guy was in the Nazi party[/url]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Plagge#Early_involvement.2C_later_disenchantment]So was this guy[/url]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_G%C3%B6ring#Anti-Nazi_activity]This guy was the brother of a leading nazi party member and the head of the luftwaffe[/url]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilm_Hosenfeld]This guy was in the Wehrmacht[/url]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Battel]So was this guy[/url]
And this is just a handful of guys, there are much more that people probably haven't even heard about.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe[/url]
[QUOTE=.FLAP.JACK.DAN.;41560713]If you were forced to then yes you should. Most Germans were forced to be Wehrmacht or risk of death or being sent to concentration camps.[/QUOTE]
I feel that these guys are most likely captains of the SS/Wehrmacht who [I]Volunteered [/I] to join the Massive killing sprees. They don't deserve instant death though.
[QUOTE=scout1;41593925]You forgot the part where they get pardoned due to old age and released. At which point I hope they go home and live a boring, sad life.
[editline]25th July 2013[/editline]
Just to head you off: I mean boring and sad as in not filled with more murders. As in normal.[/QUOTE]
scout1 being ignorant
'
wow what a surprise
leave em alone cmon
my grandfather was a nazi and he took care of prisoners
[QUOTE=J!NX;41601910]scout1 being ignorant
'
wow what a surprise[/QUOTE]
If you could actually explain why I'm ignorant you might actually have some basis, as opposed to just spouting off at random
[QUOTE=Insane516;41602981]leave em alone cmon
my grandfather was a nazi and he took care of prisoners[/QUOTE]
Good thing they don't want all Nazis arrested and tried then, just the ones suspected of committing war crimes.
You know, the ones who SHOULD be arrested and tried.
[QUOTE=scout1;41603040]If you could actually explain why I'm ignorant you might actually have some basis, as opposed to just spouting off at random[/QUOTE]
its already been said
putting a 90 year old in jail to tell your "Your a bad person" does literally nothing, no lesson is learned, no punishment really happens,
Even is they last a while 10 years, does it really matter? THEY WON, THAT Nazi already won by living an entire lifetime. And EVEN then, with him in jail, you still lose
[QUOTE=J!NX;41603072]its already been said
putting a 90 year old in jail to tell your "Your a bad person" does literally nothing, no lesson is learned, no punishment really happens,
Even is they last a while 10 years, does it really matter? THEY WON, THAT Nazi already won by living an entire lifetime. And EVEN then, with him in jail, you still lose[/QUOTE]
Except I don't care if they are put in jail, and you again are not providing a line for explaining how old is too old. You show a basic misunderstanding of rule of law, which I do believe is defined as ignorance. And your idea of "winning" and "losing" against the nazis? I have no idea what that is supposed to be, but it doesn't conform with any rational system of justice.
I love that to see that Facepunch is supporting people being able to evade the law just because they escaped it long enough to "get too old".
Wonderful, glad to see that the law is so fluid, I'll just go murder someone and hide out in the bahamas untill I'm too old to be prosecuted! :D
[QUOTE=scout1;41603102]Except I don't care if they are put in jail, and you again are not providing a line for explaining how old is too old. You show a basic misunderstanding of rule of law, which I do believe is defined as ignorance. And your idea of "winning" and "losing" against the nazis? I have no idea what that is supposed to be, but it doesn't conform with any rational system of justice.[/QUOTE]
its not about winning and losing against nazis, but the fact that this particular nazi has 'won' by already living his life.
Hey, maybe, you might as well jail him, but, financially you're just far better off giving them a huge fine. Jail is too unhealthy for someone that age, and either way, they die peacefully either way. Execution is the best way but lets face it, thats REALLY fucking expensive in most countries.
[editline]26th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Craigewan;41603136]I love that to see that Facepunch is supporting people being able to evade the law just because they escaped it long enough to "get too old".
Wonderful, glad to see that the law is so fluid, I'll just go murder someone and hide out in the bahamas untill I'm too old to be prosecuted! :D[/QUOTE]
thats not the point
its that your to old to [I]go to jail[/I], not be punished.
I guess the only thing to do is deport and/or huge fine
[QUOTE=J!NX;41603216]its not about winning and losing against nazis, but the fact that this particular nazi has 'won' by already living his life.
Hey, maybe, you might as well jail him, but, financially you're just far better off giving them a huge fine. Jail is too unhealthy for someone that age, and either way, they die peacefully either way. Execution is the best way but lets face it, thats REALLY fucking expensive in most countries.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry Yugoslavia it's too expensive to stop the ethnic cleansing?
[editline]26th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=J!NX;41603216]
thats not the point
its that your to old to [I]go to jail[/I], not be punished[/QUOTE]
And the only person talking about them going to jail is you.
[QUOTE=scout1;41603234]Sorry Yugoslavia it's too expensive to stop the ethnic cleansing?
[editline]26th July 2013[/editline]
And the only person talking about them going to jail is you.[/QUOTE]
Doing it with actual laws that are in place in order to prevent human rights abuses and doing it in huge amounts are two different things
Funny thing is the laws don't do shit, innocent people STILL occasionally have the risk of being executed.
[QUOTE=J!NX;41603254]Doing it with actual laws that are in place in order to prevent human rights abuses and doing it in huge amounts are two different things
Funny thing is the laws don't do shit, innocent people STILL occasionally have the risk of being executed.[/QUOTE]
And again the only person talking about executions is you. I am again advocating for them to see trial. What their sentence is is up to an informed court, judge, or in some countries magistrates. This is, of course, after examining their physical and mental condition, the severity of the convicted crimes, and mitigating circumstances.
[QUOTE=scout1;41603319]And again the only person talking about executions is you. I am again advocating for them to see trial. What their sentence is is up to an informed court, judge, or in some countries magistrates. This is, of course, after examining their physical and mental condition, the severity of the convicted crimes, and mitigating circumstances.[/QUOTE]
then they get trialed like everyone wants
I just want to see a more open minded punishment such as at least fining them att they have and letting them live the rest of their life at a new home, deported away from everyone, alone, Jail would probably be fruitless, and not only that, inmates in america at least would beat the shit out of them.
[QUOTE=J!NX;41603382]then they get trialed like everyone wants
I just want to see a more open minded punishment such as at least fining them att they have and letting them live the rest of their life at a new home, deported away from everyone, alone, Jail would probably be fruitless, and not only that, inmates in america at least would beat the shit out of them.[/QUOTE]
The only one bringing America into this is you? The source is a .de, so I'm guessing not American. Like Scout, I just want to see them tried for the crimes, if people are offering monetary incentives to find out if the remaining untried war criminals are around to be tried, then so be it.
[QUOTE=Craigewan;41603428]The only one bringing America into this is you? The source is a .de, so I'm guessing not American. Like Scout, I just want to see them tried for the crimes, if people are offering monetary incentives to find out if the remaining untried war criminals are around to be tried, then so be it.[/QUOTE]
" in america[B] at least [/B]"
Meaning, In America AT LEAST, this isn't assuming its in america, or going to america, but that, other countries are the same
[QUOTE=J!NX;41603466]" in america[B] at least [/B]"
Meaning, In America AT LEAST, this isn't assuming its in america, or going to america, but that, other countries are the same[/QUOTE]
Which is a dumb and ill-informed assumption to make.
I would stop, you're embarrassing yourself
[QUOTE=Craigewan;41603487]Which is a dumb and ill-informed assumption to make.
I would stop, you're embarrassing yourself[/QUOTE]
American jails are generally shitty
No, thats not dumb or ill informed, at all. Its dumb and ill informed to say there isn't an issue with jails in America. Or that other countries can be shitty as well.
[QUOTE=J!NX;41603505]American jails are generally shitty
No, thats not dumb or ill informed, at all. Its dumb and ill informed to say there isn't an issue with jails in America. Or that other countries can be shitty as well.[/QUOTE]
No, your assumption was that other countries are the same as America - that is dumb and ill-informed. Countries all over the world have vastly varying jail systems.
Which aren't even the issue here, this is about war criminals being brought to trial, what happens afterward depends on the verdict of said trials.
[QUOTE=Nazi666;41560574]My name has nothing to do with it. I made this account when I was thirteen. They don't deserve to be free for the crimes they commited. You pray that I don't EVER see a SS soldier/wehrmacht soldier who commited a warcrime or I'll take justice in to my own hands.[/QUOTE]
You know, you sound like you're trying to be Batman but you're complete craziness makes you such a Joker in my book
[QUOTE=scout1;41594040]Nah bad health gets all sorts of people out of prison. Matter of practical necessity.[/QUOTE]
If this is true and what you believe, then why in hell have you spent the god knows how long arguing in this thread for something you yourself are now saying is pointless?
I mean, Jesus Christ, you're trivializing the amount of time and government resources and taxpayer money you are wasting so you can give these people trials that will accomplish NOTHING.
Can I just point out that they've had 70 years of torture living with the fact they contributed in any sort of small way to the Holocaust, and most of them probably haven't
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