[QUOTE=gudman;41562276] It's revenge in it's most blatant, barbaric appearance.[/QUOTE]
This, this is exactly what this is.
Leave it to scout1 to be the hero we (don't) need by sending hundreds of old people to prison for something they were forced to do an entire lifetime ago.
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;41562242]What in the living hell are you going to prove on a soldier in a war from seventy damn years ago? Jack fucking shit, take your holier than thou attitude and please shove it up your pretentious fucking ass.
Im sorry that you feel human beings have the capability to live forever, why don't you go and lookup how many people live past 100. I'll tell you now, its not a lot.
The only thing we'd honestly be able to prove is he was a damn member of the nazi party.
[/QUOTE]
Okay, and if that is all we can prove? Guess what, it becomes a non issue. They are released. They are free. Their name is cleared.
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;41562242]Stop trying to paint me in a bad light just because I can see the nonsense in hunting down ninety year old men for a seventy year old war.
I have not once said the nazis crimes were acceptable. You said it yourself, the murder of a human being is unacceptable, but en-masse it is even more so.
And generally, the punishment for killing a human being certainly does involve jail. But given the advanced age of those still alive the most you're going to do is place them in a damn nursing home.[/QUOTE]
You've determined all these things without looking at a single shred of evidence, determining anyone's actual age or legal culpability, hearing expert testimony, nor giving due consideration to an appropriate sentence.
I'm glad that you know better than a jury, judge, and (metaphorical) executioner. Again, why don't we just replace our entire judicial system with you? Instead of taking the time to examine the issues, you can simply pre-determine guilt or innocence.
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;41562242]
Please, crank the autism down to zero and stop being an asshole. God damn it had to be said.[/QUOTE]
Cute. I'm autistic because I care about the murder of millions.
hate to break it to you but you're autistic with or without the holocaust
[QUOTE=scout1;41562255]According to your 5 minutes of thought on the subject? What boundaries did you use to determine when it's "worth it"? How do you know they're going to die in the decade? You're an expert in all these subjects? You think it's "too late"? Are you a victim of any atrocities during WW2? You get to speak for them?[/QUOTE]
They are going to die very soon. You're really not being rational here. You don't have to be an expert to know when you get old, you die. Okay, so they're tried (takes a while) and then put in prison. Then they die shortly after they are imprisoned. What the fuck is the point dude? Like I said, it's a waste of time and money.
And I can't speak for the victims of the atrocities during WWII, but they can't speak either. I'm not saying let it go, but just realize that there's just no fucking point.
Also, isn't the purpose of imprisonment to deter the criminal from future crime? For Christ's sake, what the fuck is the purpose of it if they're likely to die during the sentencing anyway?
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;41562303]Leave it to scout1 to be the hero we (don't) need by sending hundreds of old people to prison for something they were forced to do an entire lifetime ago.[/QUOTE]
Forced to do it, eh? You know that? You have already seen the evidence? Would you like to share it? Could you show me the court minutes? Could I hear the defense's arguments, please? Can you tell me why it was determined they were guilty? Can you explain to me why they were deemed medically fit for trial?
I would like to know how you, personally, know better than an entire courtroom which is our legal apparatus to determine guilt, innocence, and the truth in criminal proceedings.
You can't judge people just by the group they were with- some got forced into the war whether they liked it or not, not to mention that a good amount disagreed with Hitler's actions. Otto Carius is a good example, he was the highest ranking tank ace in the entire war and still disagreed with a lot of the things they were ordered to do.
[QUOTE=scout1;41562307]Okay, and if that is all we can prove? Guess what, it becomes a non issue. They are released. They are free. Their name is cleared.
You've determined all these things without looking at a single shred of evidence, determining anyone's actual age or legal culpability, hearing expert testimony, nor giving due consideration to an appropriate sentence.
I'm glad that you know better than a jury, judge, and (metaphorical) executioner. Again, why don't we just replace our entire judicial system with you? Instead of taking the time to examine the issues, you can simply pre-determine guilt or innocence.
Cute. I'm autistic because I care about the murder of millions.[/QUOTE]
No, you're autistic because you rely on terrible arguments and downright ridiculous scenarios to try and disprove someone's argument.
Please, tell me what evidence, or what testimony we can get for these nazis we hunt down.
Are we really going to find the sister of the woman a nazi killed seventy years ago?
Is she really going to be able to prove anything? Are we? No. That is all there is to it. The only thing we can absolutely prove is that they were at one point a nazi.
You don't care about the murder of millions, you care about the chance to make yourself look good with shoddy arguments.
Its people like you who are real insults to the memory of those who died. Stop trying to gain attention through their deaths you prick.
I'll tell you this now.
[B]WHAT IF. [/B]Has never been an effective way to argue your point across to someone.
[QUOTE=AJisAwesome15;41562331]They are going to die very soon. You're really not being rational here. You don't have to be an expert to know when you get old, you die. [/QUOTE]
How old? Does it differ? Does it vary? It does.
[QUOTE=AJisAwesome15;41562331]TOkay, so they're tried (takes a while) and then put in prison. Then they die shortly after they are imprisoned. What the fuck is the point dude?[/QUOTE]
How long is "shortly"? When is it appropriate to imprison someone and not? If they die in a week, is it okay? A month? A year? Two years? Four, five? Ten?
It's still not up to you to decide this. It's up to someone with many years of experience and education. This is a "judge".
[QUOTE=AJisAwesome15;41562331]And I can't speak for the victims of the atrocities during WWII, but they can't speak either. I'm not saying let it go, but just realize that there's just no fucking point.[/QUOTE]
That is for a criminal proceeding to determine, not one person randomly deciding how they feel about a particular thing. If my word were force of law, would I arbitrarily execute anyone with past nazi affiliations? What if I thought there was a point to that? Do you think that's okay, to just wing it and go with a single person's opinion of the matter?
whatever dude, it's like talking to a brick wall.
[IMG]http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photopost/data/770/aHogans-Heroes-tv-02.jpg[/IMG]
Like it has been said a million times before, not all the Nazis were bad people.
If you found these two somewhere in South America would you really, REALLY want to kill them?
[QUOTE=AJisAwesome15;41562384]whatever dude, it's like talking to a brick wall.[/QUOTE]
I concur, he's just going to continue his senseless rambling without any consideration for the arguments of others.
Fuck it.
Scout1, I think the nazis were a swell group of dudes, you and me should totally go sign up at the local NN get-together and we can be BFFs. ;p
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;41562354]No, you're autistic because you rely on terrible arguments and downright ridiculous scenarios to try and disprove someone's argument.
[/QUOTE]
You know what's ridiculous? Not trying somebody who killed 100 people.
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;41562354]
Please, tell me what evidence, or what testimony we can get for these nazis we hunt down.
[/QUOTE]
It varies based on the person. If there's no evidence, you don't go to trial. Very simple. If there is sufficient evidence, you go to trial and guilt and innocence are determined. Could you tell me, now, about those cases lacking evidence where it wasn't right to pursue them?
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;41562354]
Are we really going to find the sister of the woman a nazi killed seventy years ago?
Is she really going to be able to prove anything? Are we? No. That is all there is to it. The only thing we can absolutely prove is that they were at one point a nazi.
[/QUOTE]
Really, you already know that? What if I had a photograph of an SS member gunning down a civilian? Can we prove that?
You seem to be disregarding every single motion of a trial. If the evidence isn't there, there is no conviction.
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;41562354]
You don't care about the murder of millions, you care about the chance to make yourself look good with shoddy arguments.
Its people like you who are real insults to the memory of those who died. Stop trying to gain attention through their deaths you prick.
[/QUOTE]
I don't give a fuck if you know who I am or why I do what I do. I care that rule of law is maintained. The only reason you even pay attention to me is because you disagree, not because I drew any attention to myself.
[editline]23rd July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;41562396]I concur, he's just going to continue his senseless rambling without any consideration for the arguments of others.
Fuck it.
Scout1, I think the nazis were a swell group of dudes, you and me should totally go sign up at the local NN get-together and we can be BFFs. ;p[/QUOTE]
I am considering your argument. Your argument is that we shouldn't listen to any arguments because you already determined that they paid for their crimes. Not how the legal system works, and not how anybody wishes it should work. We shall have a grand jury, and if they are fit and good to stand trial they shall stand trial, if there exists sufficient evidence. Then there shall be a prosecution, and a defense, and guilt and innocence shall be determined. We don't skip steps 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 to get to what we feel is appropriate without considering a single shred of evidence.
[QUOTE=scout1;41562403]You know what's ridiculous? Not trying somebody who killed 100 people.
It varies based on the person. If there's no evidence, you don't go to trial. Very simple. If there is sufficient evidence, you go to trial and guilt and innocence are determined. Could you tell me, now, about those cases lacking evidence where it wasn't right to pursue them?
Really, you already know that? What if I had a photograph of an SS member gunning down a civilian? Can we prove that?
You seem to be disregarding every single motion of a trial. If the evidence isn't there, there is no conviction.
I don't give a fuck if you know who I am or why I do what I do. I care that rule of law is maintained. The only reason you even pay attention to me is because you disagree, not because I drew any attention to myself.[/QUOTE]
yeah man, they all totally killed one hundred people.
I don't understand the logic any of you guys are applying. If somebody murdered a person 20 years ago and just got caught they should go to prison, Right?
Why should when it happened even matter?
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;41562424]yeah man, they all totally killed one hundred people.
[/QUOTE]
I don't know they all did. I was giving an example. Do you know that they all didn't?
[QUOTE=scout1;41562446]I don't know they all did. I was giving an example. Do you know that they all didn't?[/QUOTE]
I know that we can't prove shit on them
[QUOTE=Nazi666;41560532]No. My girlfriend is from Poland and her family was subjected to some fucking harsh treatment by the germans when they invaded. You can't just say "leave them alone.". There is justice needing to be done for the rapes they commited and more. But of course you will say "just leave them alone.".
[b][i]there going to jail regardless.[/i][/b][/QUOTE]
Everything about this post, including your username, is absolutely hilarious.
Fuck it, im out.
Scout1 is right, our law system is the pinnacle of reason.
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;41562454]I know that we can't prove shit on them[/QUOTE]
I [I]"know"[/I] Hitler was innocent. Does that make Hitler innocent? Do I get to determine guilt and innocence based on how I feel about one particular person or event? No?
So...why do you think you have this ability to judge all crimes, their guilt, innocence, the truth of the matter?
[editline]23rd July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;41562475]Fuck it, im out.
Scout1 is right, our law system is the pinnacle of reason.[/QUOTE]
It's not the pinnacle of reason, but it's a hell of a lot better than one random guy deciding someone is guilty or innocent without looking at a single fact!
[QUOTE=scout1;41562481]I [I]"know"[/I] Hitler was innocent. Does that make Hitler innocent? Do I get to determine guilt and innocence based on how I feel about one particular person or event? No?
So...why do you think you have this ability to judge all crimes, their guilt, innocence, the truth of the matter?
[editline]23rd July 2013[/editline]
It's not the pinnacle of reason, but it's a hell of a lot better than one random guy deciding someone is guilty or innocent without looking at a single fact![/QUOTE]
Please show me the facts bud.
Oh wait, seventy years, we don't have shit.
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;41562503]Please show me the facts bud.
Oh wait, seventy years, we don't have shit.[/QUOTE]
Here's the most recent trial I can remember. At least four witnesses, documents from the camp, and testimony from the defense that the documents may have been forged.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Demjanjuk#Trial_in_Germany[/url]
But that doesn't matter, right? You've already determined there is no evidence. Even when evidence is presented to you, do you deny there is evidence?
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41560571]So if I kill somebody and then go into hiding for 70 years, I can get off scot free?[/QUOTE]
Do you have any idea what this is, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations"]Statute of limitations[/URL]
[QUOTE=breakyourfac;41562563]Do you have any idea what this is, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations"]Statute of limitations[/URL][/QUOTE]
"By way of custom of international law, genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes are usually not subject to statute of limitations, nor to prescription."
Murder is also not prescribed a statute of limitations in domestic courts.
really instead of punishing these guys i'd really just like to hear what it was like back then
this was well before many's time i'd rather have them speak from their pov than to bring them to justice or revenge and have a piece of history never heard from again
hating someone for someone else's reason(whom most if not all have moved on and/or forgiven them for their crimes) and not your own is dumb it's like someone saying "wow i heard your grandparents were racist back then and supported the KKK even though they're don't anymore lets go beat the shit out of them and make them pay for breaking that black guys car and supporting the KKK"
[QUOTE=scout1;41562573]"By way of custom of international law, genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes are [B]usually not[/B] subject to statute of limitations, nor to prescription."
Murder is also not prescribed a statute of limitations in domestic courts.[/QUOTE]
that phrase has the same leverage as your infamous 'what if'
[QUOTE=breakyourfac;41562563]Do you have any idea what this is, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations"]Statute of limitations[/URL][/QUOTE]
This is not applicable here, really. Some crimes are not subject to this.
BTW, they're talking revenge here, not justice. So legislation is largely irrelevant. Why do we have criminal justice at all? The most common goal throughout the diffirent societies boils down to this: enforcing the standards of conduct necessary to protect individuals and the community. Putting 90 year old guy who commited his crimes 70 years ago in prison doesn't enforce anything. Doesn't protect anything.
It's just this - putting a guy to live in prison for a few years he has left. It doesn't pursue any other goals. And when penalty doesn't have any goals, all what's left is revenge. And revenge has it's own place in criminal legislation.
Plus the fact that it's next to impossible to prove anything, as already has been stated, multiple times.
[QUOTE=breakyourfac;41562675]that phrase has the same leverage as your infamous 'what if'[/QUOTE]
Did you read the rest
"This custom has been codified in a number of multilateral treaties. States that ratify the Convention on the Non-Applicability of Statutory Limitations to War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity agree to not allow limitations claims for these crimes. Article 29 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court states that genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes "shall not be subject to any statute of limitations"."
[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;41562682]So say you lock up a 90 year old man. What then.
You payout taxpayer money to throw a man who is extremely likely to die in less than 10 years into jail. What is the fucking point.[/QUOTE]
Why lock up a man who won't live 15 years?
20?
25?
30?
At what point, for you, does it become inappropriate to imprison someone convicted of heinous crimes?
[QUOTE=scout1;41562713]
Why lock up a man who won't live 15 years?
20?
25?
30?
At what point, for you, does it become inappropriate to imprison someone convicted of heinous crimes?[/QUOTE]
when they're too old to be dangerous
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