• No vote gains 6 point lead over Yes vote in new Scottish referendum Poll
    57 replies, posted
[QUOTE=AlexConnor;45945220]Plus the Shetlands and Hebrides which hold a lot of the oil reserves want their own referendums, and they have as legitimate a claim to independence as Scotland does. [/QUOTE] "Single LibDem MP in Lewis wants separate referendum" =/= "Everybody in the outer Hebrides want a seperate referendum"
The premise of this referendum is dangerous for one simple reason. If a 51% majority, which represents a very small majority, votes to keep things the way they are, the implications aren't huge. If a 51% majority votes to drastically change the lives of all Scots, that is huge. A small majority shouldn't be able to make such a huge change.
[QUOTE=Vasili;45944496]I don't understand why you'd want the royal family if you go independent anyway, it sounded like appeasement to make unionists vote yes.[/QUOTE] That's pretty much it. We have a lot of idiots.
[QUOTE=Flapadar;45945278] Do you have any new arguments or are you going to try recycling ones that have been debunked many times before? The monarchy is a non-issue and the currency issue has already been discussed in full during the live debates. [/QUOTE] This is a very aggressive comment, and I'm not sure if you understood what I was talking about.
[QUOTE=PolarEventide;45945392]The premise of this referendum is dangerous for one simple reason. [/QUOTE] The premise of a referendum is a very safe low cost premise for simple reasons: Because it becomes an internalized political affair in Scotland instead of an outwardly exploding political meltdown in the UK. Scots get their say, and when people inevitably regret not voting yes or no (depending on the outcome) westminster gets to remove itself from accountability because people had their say one way or the other. So generally it's a win-win for most people involved in the entire thing as apposed to a lose-lose where nobody gets their say and it boils over into poltical lockup and/or sectarian issues
It's not really fair to put any other limit on the vote needed. Imagine how you fucked over you would feel if your side got majority support and then they went and did the other thing instead, and then imagine most of the country feeling that way [editline]11th September 2014[/editline] A reasonable turnout limit would have been okay but it looks like this is going to get really high turnout anyway
I still remember when they were wrangling over trying to include the "devomax" question in the referendum. It's a good thing that got taken out.
I hope Yes wins You can be angry at me all you want
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;45945957]I hope Yes wins You can be angry at me all you want[/QUOTE] as long as foreigners don't make any moral judgement about who i'm voting for
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;45945957]I hope Yes wins You can be angry at me all you want[/QUOTE] Fortunately, you don't get to vote.
[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;45946041]Fortunately, you don't get to vote.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Robert9734;45945998]as long as foreigners don't make any moral judgement about who i'm voting for[/QUOTE] Weren't you guys driving home the whole [I]"scotlands culture and nationality are less important in a globalized and connected world"[/I] thing in like, every other thread basically Why all of a sudden the tribalistic hostility to foreigners forming opinions on Scotlands independence?
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;45946174]Weren't you guys driving home the whole [I]"scotlands culture and nationality are less important in a globalized and connected world"[/I] thing in like, every other thread basically[/quote] I believe the original quote was referring to the fact that England and Scotland share a lot in common (which is fact). [quote]Why all of a sudden the jingoistic hostility to foreigners forming opinions on Scotlands independence?[/QUOTE] Because a lot of foreigners I've spoken with seem to assume that not voting for independence somehow makes me a shill, a traitor, or some kind of bad person. A moral judgement is made of me because of what I'm voting for.
[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;45946041]Fortunately, you don't get to vote.[/QUOTE] and fortunately neither do you.
I get to vote, and I'm going to vote for what I think is the right decision.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;45946174]Weren't you guys driving home the whole [I]"scotlands culture and nationality are less important in a globalized and connected world"[/I] thing in like, every other thread basically Why all of a sudden the tribalistic hostility to foreigners forming opinions on Scotlands independence?[/QUOTE] I feel the same about foreigners supporting independence as I do about Scots. I don't even know where you're getting the idea that my posts goes against those posts about Scottish/English identity being the same thing.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;45945296]"Single LibDem MP in Lewis wants separate referendum" =/= "Everybody in the outer Hebrides want a seperate referendum"[/QUOTE] Well, since there are exactly 2 MPs between Shetland, Orkney and the Hebrides, you could also say half the MPs involved want a separate referendum.... lol This referendum carried enough weight to reach a petition before the Scottish Parliament, and Alex Salmond has met has met with Islanders 5 times to discuss giving them more autonomy in return for them staying ("please don't take all my oil"). Speaking of oil, you know where the new west coast oil fields that Alex Salmond is pinning Scotland's financial future on lie? In the waters around the Hebrides... In the event of the Islanders gaining independence, they could take up to 2/3rds of Scotland's oil with them. Which would make 70,000 people fairly rich...
[QUOTE=AlexConnor;45949735]Well, since there are exactly 2 MPs between Shetland, Orkney and the Hebrides, you could also say half the MPs involved want a separate referendum.... lol This referendum carried enough weight to reach a petition before the Scottish Parliament, and Alex Salmond has met has met with Islanders 5 times to discuss giving them more autonomy in return for them staying ("please don't take all my oil"). Speaking of oil, you know where the new west coast oil fields that Alex Salmond is pinning Scotland's financial future on lie? In the waters around the Hebrides... In the event of the Islanders gaining independence, they could take up to 2/3rds of Scotland's oil with them. Which would make 70,000 people fairly rich...[/QUOTE] How many times do I need to repeat that [b]an independent Shetland would only have 12 miles of claim to anything in the sea as it would count as an enclave in Scottish waters as it has less than 200 miles of coastline[/b]. I'm not aware of how large the Hebrides coastline is, but its worth keeping in mind that if its less than 200 miles they would only have claim to within 12 miles of their coast.
[QUOTE=Robert9734;45945710]I still remember when they were wrangling over trying to include the "devomax" question in the referendum. It's a good thing that got taken out.[/QUOTE] Yes. Devomax was just Alex Salmond playing the usual slimy politician voting tricks, since in a 3 choice referendum Scotland could have ended up leaving the UK with as low as 34% voting Yes. It's basic divide and conquer, trying to split the No vote between No and Devomax, because then Yes would only need to be the largest minority vote to win.
[QUOTE=Flapadar;45949833]How many times do I need to repeat that [b]an independent Shetland would only have 12 miles of claim to anything in the sea as it would count as an enclave in Scottish waters as it has less than 200 miles of coastline[/b]. I'm not aware of how large the Hebrides coastline is, but its worth keeping in mind that if its less than 200 miles they would only have claim to within 12 miles of their coast.[/QUOTE] Should Shetland and Orkney be allowed to vote to stay in the UK?
[QUOTE=Robert9734;45949881]Should Shetland and Orkney be allowed to vote to stay in the UK?[/QUOTE] I don't see a reason that they shouldn't have a right to self determination - though I haven't seen anything at all to suggest they don't want to be part of Scotland.
[url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/11089388/North-Korea-backs-Scottish-independence.html[/url] North Korea is backing Scottish Independence :v:
[QUOTE=Flapadar;45949833]How many times do I need to repeat that [b]an independent Shetland would only have 12 miles of claim to anything in the sea as it would count as an enclave in Scottish waters as it has less than 200 miles of coastline[/b]. I'm not aware of how large the Hebrides coastline is, but its worth keeping in mind that if its less than 200 miles they would only have claim to within 12 miles of their coast.[/QUOTE] 1st of all, Scotland's only claim to the waters around Shetland is their possession of aforementioned Shetland Islands. 2nd, the Hebrides have over 1500 miles of coastline, and one of the possible outcomes of Independence would be for the 3 island groups to form a state together...
[QUOTE=Flapadar;45949896]I don't see a reason that they shouldn't have a right to self determination - though I haven't seen anything at all to suggest they don't want to be part of Scotland.[/QUOTE] Polls conducted there show low levels of support for an independent Scotland. Generally the Shetlands have never really been Scottish, and recently they resent the SNP for trying to centralize power within Scotland. If we become independent, they fear losing powers to Edinburgh.
[QUOTE=Flapadar;45949896]I don't see a reason that they shouldn't have a right to self determination - though I haven't seen anything at all to suggest they don't want to be part of Scotland.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/shetland-orkney-and-the-outer-hebrides-demand-independence-referendums-of-their-own-if-scotland-votes-yes-9217514.html[/url]
[QUOTE=AlexConnor;45949965][url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/shetland-orkney-and-the-outer-hebrides-demand-independence-referendums-of-their-own-if-scotland-votes-yes-9217514.html[/url][/QUOTE] [quote]The vast majority of people in Shetland and Orkney believe the northern isles should remain part of Scotland. An exclusive poll commissioned by the Press and Journal showed that 82% thought the current arrangements should be maintained. A total of 8% of respondents said they thought the northern isles should break away from Scotland and 10% said they did not know.[/quote] [url]http://archive.today/RUCP2#selection-881.0-889.129[/url] [url]http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/GettingInvolved/Petitions/islandgroups[/url] 1177/70,000 or 1%. Bearing in mind of course that figure will include people who aren't resident of the islands so that number is higher than the real number of people who actually signed it [quote]2nd, the Hebrides have over 1500 miles of coastline, and one of the possible outcomes of Independence would be for the 3 island groups to form a state together...[/QUOTE] The 200 miles needs to be of continuous coastline so only the Hebrides would be able to make any claim at all, if your figures are correct.
[QUOTE=Flapadar;45949999][url]http://archive.today/RUCP2#selection-881.0-889.129[/url] [url]http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/GettingInvolved/Petitions/islandgroups[/url][/QUOTE] The P&J article is old, and from what I can tell supports only the current arrangements (Scotland remains part of UK, Islands remain part of Scotland), although there isn't really enough context in the article... And of course Salmond's government is not supporting the petition... [QUOTE]The 200 miles needs to be of continuous coastline so only the Hebrides would be able to make any claim at all, if your figures are correct.[/QUOTE] I'm actually not sure where you came up with the "less than 200 miles" figure for the Shetlands... They also have around 1500 miles of coastline, and looking at the map something like 2/3rds of that is continuous. Only Orkney might have trouble with 200 miles of continuous coastline, the Orkney mainland is relatively small.
[QUOTE=AlexConnor;45950130]The P&J article is old, and from what I can tell supports only the current arrangements (Scotland remains part of UK, Islands remain part of Scotland), although there isn't really enough context in the article... And of course Salmond's government is not supporting the petition...[/quote] My point was that not many people [b]on the islands[/b] appear to support the petition either. [quote]I'm actually not sure where you came up with the "less than 200 miles" figure for the Shetlands... They also have around 1500 miles of coastline, and looking at the map something like 2/3rds of that is continuous. Only Orkney might have trouble with 200 miles of continuous coastline, the Orkney mainland is relatively small.[/QUOTE] I did some double checking on my sources and it turns out I'd made a little cock up. Shetland exists entirely within Scotland's "Exclusive Economic Zone" and so waters with Shetland and Orkney not being part of Scotland would look like this. [img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1eHF0Nd7X5Y/T1-kWzYvmiI/AAAAAAAAAYw/6pTOAKzWTO8/s1600/maritimeboundaries.png[/img] [url]http://www.ejil.org/pdfs/12/1/505.pdf[/url]
So When all the Labour MPs from London arrived on the same train to Glasgow, this happened: [video=youtube;DiMXuEmqAHA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiMXuEmqAHA&feature=youtu.be[/video]
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