Scientists Declare Dolphins To Be "Non-Human Persons", Still Delicious With Tuna and Mayo
239 replies, posted
You know, it's funny, because I was thinking about whether Earth would actually allow other intelligent species to have rights equal to human beings. Of course I was thinking about outer space aliens, not Dolphins.
However, I guess it would be right to recognize them as equals too. Considering they can feel and understand feelings just like any human.
So do Dolphins have their own language? Can we speak dolphin? Does being fluent in Dolphin count as knowing a foreign language for college?
[QUOTE=cephalopoid;20405637]They have language. And as the article states, they have a culture that they teach to their young. How do we know they don't have philosophy? I think it is rather egocentric to think that because they were classified as an animal that they don't have these things. We cannot understand their language, so how can we (you) make judgments like this?[/QUOTE]
Meta Cognizance implies a lot more than communication.
By that same logic you could say ants are Meta Cognizant, but they aren't.
There is only one definition of Meta Cognition right now and that's us, Humanity as it is. It is more than communication. It is fabrication, it is creativity, it is creation and understanding. It is a level of understanding nigh beyond words, oft demonstrated by such an understanding that facilitates creation of stories, like religions, or societal rules and rights, or sciences and studies. The ability to CREATE on a philosophical, physical and mental level. Dolphins don't create. As intelligent as they may be that spark of understanding is thus far not there.
[QUOTE=OvB;20404474]We grant them this and they repay us by killing a trainer?
[url]http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=900089[/url]
(killer whales are dolphins)[/QUOTE]
No they're not. They're dolphinlike indeed (in being mammallike), but not dolphins- dolphins have their own genus.
[QUOTE=Lankist;20406649]Meta Cognizance implies a lot more than communication.
By that same logic you could say ants are Meta Cognizant, but they aren't.[/QUOTE]
Um, no, that's a faulty analogy. Please pretend I'm an adult and not prone to such tactics.
[QUOTE=Lankist;20406649]There is only one definition of Meta Cognition right now and that's us, Humanity as it is. It is more than communication. It is fabrication, it is creativity, it is creation and understanding. Dolphins don't create.[/QUOTE]
How do you know they don't create? What is fabrication? I mean, if you want to get all Nietzschian, then I can. They might not sculpture, but create "art" as [I]we [/I]know it, but then maybe we don't recognize art as [I]they[/I] create it.
Besides, they do invent. They create bubble nets.
[url]http://www.isvr.soton.ac.uk/FDAG/UAUA/RESEARCH/echolocation%20and%20bubbles/echolocation%20and%20bubbles%201.htm[/url]
Evidence of understanding of oneself has thus far only ever been demonstrated by artificially improving oneself. We mastered fire, fabricated bows, arrows, spears and swords to defend ourselves against the rest of the world.
On an evolutionary level it seems highly improbably that a species at our level of Meta Cognizance has yet to develop a method or tendency to create as humans did. I'm not a biologist, I could be missing something here, but for a species to survive and develop such a trait would require either A. The ability to defend oneself against predators, or B. A severe lack of predators (marked by overpopulation.) The use of bodily functions within the environment does not evidence this. Dogs mark territory with their piss to ward off others, this does not mean they fabricated something.
I'm not saying dolphins are stupid. Well, I am, but they aren't stupid if you do not compare them to Humanity.
The ant analogy is perfect. Ants create, ants fabricate and communicate, but they are not intelligent, they have no philosophy to speak of. Fabrication, creation and communication are SIGNS of Meta Cognizance, not its definition.
Were dolphins truly at the same level of self-understanding that we are, it would prove much easier to communicate with them. Just as two humans who speak different languages can, off the top of their heads, work out ways to communicate via pictographs, body-language or facial expressions, two intelligent and Meta Cognizant species would similarly be able to devise a method of communication in cooperation. Instead, we have taught and trained dolphins to communicate with methods entirely of OUR design, not of a mutual effort. There has been no effort on the fucking dolphins' part to teach us how to click properly, there has been no sign of a similar level of intellect.
[QUOTE=Equidistratic;20406688]No they're not. They're dolphinlike indeed (in being mammallike), but not dolphins- dolphins have their own genus.[/QUOTE]
Their dolphins.
You really about to question a future marine biologist?
All whales and dolphins are under the Order Cetacea, but that's where the similarities for Orcas and real whales end. Orcas are under the Family Delphinidae, then go on to [I]Orcinus orca.
[/I]All dolphins are in Delphinidae, no whales are. Killer Whales are Dolphins.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;20405485]A dolphin killed my father and raped my mother![/QUOTE]
A dolphin killed my mother and raped my father!
[QUOTE=Lankist;20407036]Evidence of understanding of oneself has thus far only ever been demonstrated by artificially improving oneself. We mastered fire, fabricated bows, arrows, spears and swords to defend ourselves against the rest of the world.
On an evolutionary level it seems highly improbably that a species at our level of Meta Cognizance has yet to develop a method or tendency to create as humans did. I'm not a biologist, I could be missing something here, but for a species to survive and develop such a trait would require either A. The ability to defend oneself against predators, or B. A severe lack of predators (marked by overpopulation.) The use of bodily functions within the environment does not evidence this. Dogs mark territory with their piss to ward off others, this does not mean they fabricated something.
I'm not saying dolphins are stupid. Well, I am, but they aren't stupid if you do not compare them to Humanity.
The ant analogy is perfect. Ants create, ants fabricate and communicate, but they are not intelligent, they have no philosophy to speak of. Fabrication, creation and communication are SIGNS of Meta Cognizance, not its definition.
Were dolphins truly at the same level of self-understanding that we are, it would prove much easier to communicate with them. Just as two humans who speak different languages can, off the top of their heads, work out ways to communicate via pictographs, body-language or facial expressions, two intelligent and Meta Cognizant species would similarly be able to devise a method of communication in cooperation. Instead, we have taught and trained dolphins to communicate with methods entirely of OUR design, not of a mutual effort. There has been no effort on the fucking dolphins' part to teach us how to click properly, there has been no sign of a similar level of intellect.[/QUOTE]
What would a dolphin teaching a human how to click look like? I mean, dolphins do make noise when they come up to receive fish or whatever, How do we not know the thing is trying to tell us something. It's like a crazy foreigner coming up to you and yelling at you for no apparent reason. It's not like the dolphins going to hold up a sign and click out "Aa" "Bb" Cc" to us.
[QUOTE=Lankist;20403780]dude come on fuck dolphins[/QUOTE]
Come on dude you can't have civil rights for minorities and not for dolphins and you know it
[QUOTE=OvB;20407329]What would a dolphin teaching a human how to click look like? I mean, dolphins do make noise when they come up to receive fish or whatever, How do we not know the thing is trying to tell us something. It's like a crazy foreigner coming up to you and yelling at you for no apparent reason. It's not like the dolphins going to hold up a sign and click out "Aa" "Bb" Cc" to us.[/QUOTE]
Let's say a Dolphin wanted to warn Trainer A that Trainer B is planning on brutally murdering him.
If the dolphin were at a similar level of intellect to me, this would be very simple to communicate. Act erratically around Trainer B, play dead around him, dart back and forth between the two, etc.
Hell, even get the other dolphins in on the act!
They have yet to demonstrate such a capacity to communicate.
[QUOTE=Lankist;20407036]Were dolphins truly at the same level of self-understanding that we are, it would prove much easier to communicate with them. Just as two humans who speak different languages can, off the top of their heads, work out ways to communicate via pictographs, body-language or facial expressions, two intelligent and Meta Cognizant species would similarly be able to devise a method of communication in cooperation. Instead, we have taught and trained dolphins to communicate with methods entirely of OUR design, not of a mutual effort. There has been no effort on the fucking dolphins' part to teach us how to click properly, there has been no sign of a similar level of intellect.[/QUOTE]
But humans who speak different languages diverged culturally probably only a few thousand years ago at the very most. They still have a wealth of shared cultural landmarks and their languages probably share a common ancestor. Dolphin language and culture, such as it is, developed completely independently, along different lines, to serve the needs of an entirely different environment. Of course they're not easy to relate to.
As for the exact level of intellect, it's not something that can be measured quantitatively, and the cultural difference obviously exacerbates that.
[QUOTE=TH89;20407461]But humans who speak different languages diverged culturally probably only a few thousand years ago at the very most. They still have a wealth of shared cultural landmarks and their languages probably share a common ancestor. Dolphin language and culture, such as it is, developed completely independently, along different lines, to serve the needs of an entirely different environment. Of course they're not easy to relate to.
As for the exact level of intellect, it's not something that can be measured quantitatively, and the cultural difference obviously exacerbates that.[/QUOTE]
Even still, communicating intelligence is not difficult. Either dolphins are keeping secrets or they haven't the capacity to do so. They have been around Humans long enough to pick up on at least a few cultural traits that could facilitate communication, provided they have been paying attention and have the ability to pass this information to the next generation.
[QUOTE=Lankist;20407445]Let's say a Dolphin wanted to warn Trainer A that Trainer B is planning on brutally murdering him.
If the dolphin were at a similar level of intellect to me, this would be very simple to communicate. Act erratically around Trainer B, play dead around him, dart back and forth between the two, etc.
Hell, even get the other dolphins in on the act!
They have yet to demonstrate such a capacity to communicate.[/QUOTE]
Or it could just hit trainer B in the nuts with its nose.
They kill sharks with those things.
[QUOTE=evilweazel;20407503]Or it could just hit trainer B in the nuts with its nose.
They kill sharks with those things.[/QUOTE]
take the gun from him and fire it w/ the flipper
[QUOTE=TH89;20407344]Come on dude you can't have civil rights for minorities and not for dolphins and you know it[/QUOTE]Does this mean 7 day bans for discrimination against dolphins?
[QUOTE=TH89;20407461]But humans who speak different languages diverged culturally probably only a few thousand years ago at the very most. They still have a wealth of shared cultural landmarks and their languages probably share a common ancestor. Dolphin language and culture, such as it is, developed completely independently, along different lines, to serve the needs of an entirely different environment. Of course they're not easy to relate to.
As for the exact level of intellect, it's not something that can be measured quantitatively, and the cultural difference obviously exacerbates that.[/QUOTE]
I was trying to say something like that but couldn't find the words. I doubt dolphins are at the exact level of intellect to us, but their probably a few thousand (10,000+) years behind us. What we know about them as of now is not enough to say exactly. The "cultures" are just to radically different to compare.
Seriously, though, they have a completely different structure in their mind from ours. If they are intelligent, they probably could not communicate it as easily as you think. That's why we're trying to figure out their language. If we could communicate to them, we could truly know if they are intelligent. Until then, this is all just guess work.
[QUOTE=PariahKing;20407555]Does this mean 7 day bans for discrimination against dolphins?[/QUOTE]
Fuck those beady-eyed little phallus-nosed fucks.
[editline]09:13PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=ASmellyOgre;20407630]Seriously, though, they have a completely different structure in their mind from ours. If they are intelligent, they probably could not communicate it as easily as you think. That's why we're trying to figure out their language. If we could communicate to them, we could truly know if they are intelligent. Until then, this is all just guess work.[/QUOTE]
Shouldn't you be concerned with the fact that they don't seem to be trying to interpret our language? Study us to see if we have a culture? Perhaps on the dolphin internet talking about how ridiculous it would be if they gave humans minority status?
[QUOTE=Lankist;20407633]Shouldn't you be concerned with the fact that they don't seem to be trying to interpret our language?[/QUOTE]
I imagine it goes both ways if they are intelligent. God, I hope they're intelligent.
[QUOTE=Lankist;20407482]Even still, communicating intelligence is not difficult. Either dolphins are keeping secrets or they haven't the capacity to do so. They have been around Humans long enough to pick up on at least a few cultural traits that could facilitate communication, provided they have been paying attention and have the ability to pass this information to the next generation.[/QUOTE]
That's still assuming a similar cultural baseline, which there's no reason to think they have. Besides, go back a couple centuries and no humans were trying to communicate with dolphins either. So that doesn't mean much at all.
Even so, I don't think anyone is saying dolphins are equal in intelligence to people. There are plenty of good evolutionary reasons why they didn't and don't need to develop bipedality or grasping hands or other things that we share with the great apes. But they're almost certainly smarter than the apes, who CAN communicate via written and gestural language.
[QUOTE=TH89;20407782]That's still assuming a similar cultural baseline, which there's no reason to think they have. Besides, go back a couple centuries and no humans were trying to communicate with dolphins either. So that doesn't mean much at all.[/QUOTE]
So basically either they're stupid or they're blissfully balanced somewhere between a sapient and an animal with no drive for improvement.
[editline]09:23PM[/editline]
Either way fuck the dolphins.
[editline]09:24PM[/editline]
If that's the case they're lazier than my gardener Juan who keeps SAYING he's gonna go to college but I don't see any diploma right now, cabron, so you'll take the fifty cents i fuckin give you
MAYBE I'LL PAY YOU MORE WHEN YOU GET YOUR construction management degree
I can make fire, dolphins can't make fire.
[QUOTE=Lankist;20407823]So basically either they're stupid or they're blissfully balanced somewhere between a sapient and an animal with no drive for improvement.[/QUOTE]
They continue to learn and teach behaviors in the wild, so I don't think "no drive for improvement" is accurate.
They don't build houses, but they don't really need them either.
[QUOTE=TH89;20407911]They continue to learn and teach behaviors in the wild, so I don't think "no drive for improvement" is accurate.
They don't build houses, but they don't really need them either.[/QUOTE]
I understand potential cultural differences, but their culture would seem pretty stagnate if it doesn't facilitate communication and advancement like ours.
And when I say communication I mean our desire to communicate with them. The beady-eyed fuckers.
I have the solution.
Humans can continue treating dolphins the way they do. But if dolphins ever develop the means of capturing injured humans and putting them in underwater zoos for their entertainment, we cannot interfere.
Or how about we kick their asses and see if they can do the same.
Oh, that's right, they can't, because they can't leave the fuckin water.
