UK: Supplying a weapon 'just as bad as using one' - could mean life in prison
162 replies, posted
All those interested in gun control effectiveness:
[url]http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp[/url]
No interpretations, only data.
EDIT: Mostly US, but some data from Britain.
[QUOTE=bord2tears;38132105]All those interested in gun control effectiveness:
[url]http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp[/url]
No interpretations, only data.
EDIT: Mostly US, but some data from Britain.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://www.justfacts.com/images/guncontrol/chicago_handguns-full.png[/img]
the numbers veer in my favo-whAT THE FUCK IS WITH YOUR AVATAR
[QUOTE=bord2tears;38132105]All those interested in gun control effectiveness:
[url]http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp[/url]
No interpretations, only data.
EDIT: Mostly US, but some data from Britain.[/QUOTE]
[quote] A U.S. Justice Department study based on crime data from 1974-1985 found:
• 42% of Americans will be the victim of a completed violent crime (assault, robbery, rape) in the course of their lives
• 83% of Americans will be the victim of an attempted or completed violent crime
• 52% of Americans will be the victim of an attempted or completed violent crime more than once[24][/quote]
jesus christ
[QUOTE=Bobie;38133202]jesus christ[/QUOTE]
violent crime includes fistfight/barfight/party rumpus
who hasn't done any of that?
[editline]21st October 2012[/editline]
regardless of how shitty our country is for that reason (pretty shitty), the numbers state more guns=less violent gun crime
who'dathunkit
[QUOTE=Neat!;38133234]violent crime includes fistfight/barfight/party rumpus
who hasn't done any of that?
[editline]21st October 2012[/editline]
regardless of how shitty our country is for that reason (pretty shitty), the numbers state more guns=less violent gun crime
who'dathunkit[/QUOTE]
more guns = less violent gun crime? you're being too 2 dimensional about it. there are hundreds of other factors that come into play when considering something as extreme as homicide, people don't go "oh hey i have a gun better kill people now" but on the other hand they also don't go "now everyone has a gun i'm going to ignore everything else and forget about that guy i was going to kill!"
there is no solid evidence that would say that more guns causes less gun crime. it's a correlation, not grounds for empirical judgement.
As I said on the other thread about guns, I am the most anti-gun person I know. I'm a bit of a pacifist but if someone is breaking into your home or you are being robbed and you are afraid for your life, you should be able to take theirs. This requires people to know how to properly use guns, parents to teach their kids that they are extremely dangerous tools that can only be used in self-defense and no other situation.
Guns don't kill people. People do. There is absolutely no problem with the weapons themselves, people just need to be educated and trained. These criminals are the ones that are armed and the odds are not in the innocent family's favor if and when they do break into your home.
Do I think citizens should be able to go out and purchase M4A1s that fire incendiary rounds? No. Do I think responsible, sane adults should be able to purchase something WITHIN reason to protect their belongings as well as the lives of their loved ones? Yes.
[QUOTE=Neat!;38133234]
regardless of how shitty our country is for that reason (pretty shitty), the numbers state more guns=less violent gun crime
who'dathunkit[/QUOTE]
Correlation does not imply causation etc.
[QUOTE=Neat!;38129878]because they haven't had the chance to try it because it's damn near illegal
some people don't want to open their minds i guess[/QUOTE]
it's got nothing to do with that
UK people don't view guns as an extension of power and justice as they do in the US. guns have been viewed as an upper-class oppression tool since pretty much the early modern-age where only the elite and the military had access to guns.
later on the gun was seen as something for sport or hunting animals, never for self-defense because the UK has never gone through a violent republican revolution powered by guns.
some people in Ireland have the same attitude towards guns as the US does (guns = weapons against oppression) and that's rooted in republican sentiment.
[QUOTE=thisispain;38133692]it's got nothing to do with that
UK people don't view guns as an extension of power and justice as they do in the US. guns have been viewed as an upper-class oppression tool since pretty much the early modern-age where only the elite and the military had access to guns.
later on the gun was seen as something for sport or hunting animals, never for self-defense because the UK has never gone through a violent republican revolution powered by guns.
some people in Ireland have the same attitude towards guns as the US does (guns = weapons against oppression) and that's rooted in republican sentiment.[/QUOTE]
makes perfect sense now, thanks
[QUOTE=Jsm;38133352]Correlation does not imply causation etc.[/QUOTE]
however, going by those statistics, stricter gun laws being implemented was followed by an increase of crime, and more relaxed gun laws was followed by a decrease in crime on many occasions
what does that tell you
[QUOTE=Bobie;38133270]more guns = less violent gun crime? you're being too 2 dimensional about it. there are hundreds of other factors that come into play when considering something as extreme as homicide, people don't go "oh hey i have a gun better kill people now" but on the other hand they also don't go "now everyone has a gun i'm going to ignore everything else and forget about that guy i was going to kill!"
there is no solid evidence that would say that more guns causes less gun crime. it's a correlation, not grounds for empirical judgement.[/QUOTE]
Than doesn't that say the same thing for the effectiveness of UK gun laws?
If guns don't have an actual link with gun crime than that means that gun laws are pointless.
[QUOTE=Tacosheller;38126820]The US also has five times as many people[/QUOTE]
which is why the keyword "homicide [B]rate[/B]" was used, population has nothing to do with it
Banning weapons is retarded. It's just like the prohibition of alcohol and the drug war. It keeps it out of law-abiding citizens' hands, creates an unregulated black market, and doesn't do shit to stop the flow of guns.
[editline]21st October 2012[/editline]
I mean, fuck, look at Chicago.
[QUOTE=Neat!;38133164][img]http://www.justfacts.com/images/guncontrol/chicago_handguns-full.png[/img]
the numbers veer in my favo-whAT THE FUCK IS WITH YOUR AVATAR[/QUOTE]
they don't though lol
there was a period of ups and downs between 65 and 81, and following the handgun ban violent crime dropped and stabilized for a period of 7 years between 81 and 88 before a massive spike near the climax of the crack epidemic. why were there 7 years of peace before this massive spike that coincided with the crack epidemic? i guess all the criminals just took 7 years to realize nobody had guns anymore!
[QUOTE=Kopimi;38134163]they don't though lol
there was a period of ups and downs between 65 and 81, and following the handgun ban violent crime dropped and stabilized for a period of 7 years between 81 and 88 before a massive spike near the climax of the crack epidemic. why were there 7 years of peace before this massive spike that coincided with the crack epidemic? i guess all the criminals just took 7 years to realize nobody had guns anymore![/QUOTE]
or it took that long for the rate of handgun ownership to drop far enough for it to actually matter
the law didn't have an immediate impact
even if that's wrong it shows guns are a negligible force, and we really should be cracking down on other things
handguns are still banned, and crime rates are still higher than they were before. did the ban do anything?
Can we shut up about american gun laws already?
yeah these never go anywhere anyway
[QUOTE=Kopimi;38134163]following the handgun ban violent crime dropped [/QUOTE]
The chart doesn't show that at all. It just says that less murders were committed using handguns rather than the murder rate itself, let alone the violent crime rate. Secondly, if the law was what caused the murder rate to drop and stabilize, why did it not work again even well after the crack epidemic was over?
[editline]21st October 2012[/editline]
Point being, just because the ban came when handgun murder rates were low, does not mean it caused the drop. That's like saying that ice cream causes murder because ice cream sales and murder rates both increase in summer.
[QUOTE=Neat!;38134216]even if that's wrong it shows guns are a negligible force, and we really should be cracking down on other things[/QUOTE]
or it shows that gun control causes a drop in crime that will remain constant for nearly a decade at the expense of your useless hobby
[QUOTE=Neat!;38134216]handguns are still banned, and crime rates are still higher than they were before. did the ban do anything?[/QUOTE]
huh? are you referring to chicago or something else? there are innumerable factors that play into crime rates, they'll fluctuate on their own regardless of the legal status of firearms, but if you're presented with the fact that gun control legislation leads to decrease and stabilization one can assume that despite any other peaks and dips, things are safer with the legislation than they would be without.
[editline]22nd October 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Pepsi-cola;38134232]Can we shut up about american gun laws already?[/QUOTE]
no because this is a discussion board (ie somewhere you discuss things) and the topic involves gun control
[QUOTE=Kopimi;38134264]
no because this is a discussion board (ie somewhere you discuss things) and the topic involves gun control[/QUOTE]
It's not about gun control to the general population this is illegal firearm dealing, you know the sort where gangs get a hold of guns that end up on the street.
Not some american constitutional rights discussion where the topic doesn't really get discussed just your non relevant bullshit that's gone on for 3 pages.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;38134264]things are safer with the legislation than they would be without.[/QUOTE]
Except that you can't prove that.
[QUOTE=Pepsi-cola;38134293]It's not about gun control to the general population this is illegal firearm dealing, you know the sort where gangs get a hold of guns that end up on the street.
Not some american constitutional rights discussion where the topic doesn't really get discussed just your non relevant bullshit that's gone on for 3 pages.[/QUOTE]
ok your point has been duly noted let me know when you're a moderator and i'll start giving a shit
[editline]22nd October 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=soccerskyman;38134294]Except that you can't prove that.[/QUOTE]
read the rest of the sentence (the words that came before what you quoted)
[QUOTE=Kopimi;38134297]
read the rest of the sentence (the words that came before what you quoted)[/QUOTE]
Prove to me that banning guns decreases violent crime.
[QUOTE=soccerskyman;38134330]Prove to me that banning guns decreases violent crime.[/QUOTE]
immediately following the handgun ban came a decrease in crime committed with handguns as well as a 7 year period in which this rate remained constant before being interrupted by the crack epidemic
[QUOTE=Kopimi;38134347]immediately following the handgun ban came a decrease in crime committed with handguns as well as a 7 year period in which this rate remained constant before being interrupted by the crack epidemic[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=soccerskyman;38134242]The chart doesn't show that at all. It just says that less murders were committed using handguns rather than the murder rate itself, let alone the violent crime rate. Secondly, if the law was what caused the murder rate to drop and stabilize, why did it not work again even well after the crack epidemic was over?
[editline]21st October 2012[/editline]
Point being, just because the ban came when handgun murder rates were low, does not mean it caused the drop. That's like saying that ice cream causes murder because ice cream sales and murder rates both increase in summer.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=soccerskyman;38134369]plflbbfbfbfbbb[/QUOTE]
i hope its okay with you for me to just talk about the data that's been posted instead of going on a hunt for some data i don't care about to satisfy a request you made
[QUOTE=Kopimi;38134384]i hope its okay with you for me to just talk about the data that's been posted instead of going on a hunt for some data i don't care about to satisfy a request you made[/QUOTE]
None of the data posted solidly backs up your claim.
Dude, stop.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;38134347]immediately following the handgun ban came a decrease in crime committed with handguns as well as a 7 year period in which this rate remained constant before being interrupted by the crack epidemic[/QUOTE]
That decrease in murders by handguns was already happening well before the ban took place.
[QUOTE=soccerskyman;38134417]None of the data posted solidly backs up your claim.[/QUOTE]
[quote]came a decrease in [B]crime committed with handguns[/B] as well as a 7 year period in which this rate remained constant before being interrupted by the crack epidemic[/quote]
maybe if you're learning impaired and you completely misunderstood what i said that would be true but to anyone with the ability to read simple sentences, what i said was definitely accurate
[img]http://i.imgur.com/7NPEw.jpg[/img]
as you can tell by this graph there is no reason to believe kopimi is either a turd burgler or a dong mongler
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