• Hostage situation taking place now in Orlando. [50+ dead, suspect killed]
    916 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Thlis;50505148]I can't remember if it has been posted in this thread, but there is a relatively recent video wherein a Muslim preacher in an Orlando mosque made a speech advocating the death of homosexuals. This set of ideals has to be addressed, and claiming that there isn't a religious aspect to these terrorist attacks is just passing the buck and covering your eyes and ears.[/QUOTE] It's fucking astounding how often that happens, that radical imams are practically championing terrorism in western countries like that while being in said countries, and almost nobody bats an eyelid to it somehow. We really need to crack down on fucknuts like that no matter what.
[QUOTE=Jordax;50505213]It's fucking astounding how often that happens, that radical imams are practically championing terrorism in western countries like that while being in said countries, and almost nobody bats an eyelid to it somehow. We really need to crack down on fucknuts like that no matter what.[/QUOTE] no one is saying that we shouldnt. but there is a difference between going after and punishing the radicals and those who encourage it, and closing every mosque ever. there is a middle ground, the problem is that this issue is treated so goddamn polar that you cant take the middle stance without being called out for "supporting terrorists" by one side, or "supporting racism" by the other.
[QUOTE=Jordax;50505213]It's fucking astounding how often that happens, that radical imams are practically championing terrorism in western countries like that while being in said countries, and almost nobody bats an eyelid to it somehow. We really need to crack down on fucknuts like that no matter what.[/QUOTE]I'd rather not sacrifice all our rights because a very small minority (a minority of a minority actually) decides to say stupid shit. I hate the shit out of Islam but Muslims, even radical ones, have every right to say whatever crazy fucking shit they want and I support that.
[QUOTE=TheFilmSlacker;50504629][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/nUdLpqu.png?1[/IMG] Love to see someone try and defend this.[/QUOTE] LGBT people have been specifically targeted, and also killed, for decades. As if this is anything new, Trump.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50505147]I'm sure you know what ISIS wants, after all you asked Al-Baghdadi himself and had regular chats with Jihadi John before his untimely demise[/QUOTE] ISIS aren't exactly discreet about their objectives. They publish a fucking magazine for God's sake. Driving a wedge between Muslims and the West is literally one of their stated goals. High profile terrorist attacks are perpetrated largely in the hopes of provoking widespread outrage and persecution targeting Muslims, because that feeds into the recruitment networks of Islamic extremists by putting more people at risk of radicalization due to an increasing sense of alienation from Western society. This isn't just speculation and guesswork, it is a longstanding tactical fact. If you [I]really[/I] want to try to understand what we're up against, you need to understand their motivations and tactics.
[QUOTE=Killuah;50503377]Oh come ON [media]https://twitter.com/globalnews/status/742073941246631936[/media][/QUOTE] wtf global news, that's clickbait They became aware of the shooter, not the shooting, in 2013.
[QUOTE=Levithan;50505372]LGBT people have been specifically targeted, and also killed, for decades. As if this is anything new, Trump.[/QUOTE] Yeah but were 50 killed in one mass shooting before? This attack is pretty big compared to cases like Matthew Shepard. Plus he's obviously talking about Islam, not lgbt
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;50505403]wtf global news, that's clickbait They became aware of the shooter, not the shooting, in 2013.[/QUOTE] technically they're aware of literally everybody they've cast their net too wide
He didn't work for them or have meaningful contact with them. Calling it a terror attack like Obama did and saying it was ISIS is just making them feel and look more powerful and arguably playing into what they want. Should the media hype it up?
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50505399]ISIS aren't exactly discreet about their objectives. They publish a fucking magazine for God's sake. Driving a wedge between Muslims and the West is literally one of their stated goals. High profile terrorist attacks are perpetrated largely in the hopes of provoking widespread outrage and persecution targeting Muslims, because that feeds into the recruitment networks of Islamic extremists by putting more people at risk of radicalization due to an increasing sense of alienation from Western society. This isn't just speculation and guesswork, it is a longstanding tactical fact. If you [I]really[/I] want to try to understand what we're up against, you need to understand their motivations and tactics.[/QUOTE] Maybe I'm missing something, but why would a racist/islamiphobic response to these events cause peaceful Muslims to become radicalized? "Oh, see the attacks on islam after this event? They're calling us barbarians and terrorists. I'll teach them a lesson and carry out a terrorist attack." It doesn't make any sense. I don't think those reactions drive people to extremism. It seems to me that a small portion of Muslims really believe that attacking "infidels" is the right thing to do, regardless of the effects. Why would rightfully calling them out on their bullshit religion drive them to further separate their ideals with modern western society? I wish it was that easy. The idea that if we just ignored their shitty beliefs, it would all go away seems like nonsense. That's not the problem. The problem is the ideas of martyrism and paradise that are inherent to their fucked up beliefs in the holiness of the Koran and the Hadith. If we really think that calling a spade a spade, saying their beliefs are bullshit, will drive more of them to extremism, what does that say about their beliefs?
[QUOTE=TheFilmSlacker;50504940] At least he cleared things up. Met him a few months ago and regardless of what he said, he seems to have his heart in the right place.[/QUOTE] Dude's just maintaining kayfabe like an old-school wrestler would.
[QUOTE=Ltp0wer;50505878]Maybe I'm missing something, but why would a racist/islamiphobic response to these events cause peaceful Muslims to become radicalized? "Oh, see the attacks on islam after this event? They're calling us barbarians and terrorists. I'll teach them a lesson and carry out a terrorist attack." It doesn't make any sense. I don't think those reactions drive people to extremism. It seems to me that a small portion of Muslims really believe that attacking "infidels" is the right thing to do, regardless of the effects. Why would rightfully calling them out on their bullshit religion drive them to further separate their ideals with modern western society? I wish it was that easy. The idea that if we just ignored their shitty beliefs, it would all go away seems like nonsense. That's not the problem. The problem is the ideas of martyrism and paradise that are inherent to their fucked up beliefs in the holiness of the Koran and the Hadith. If we really think that calling a spade a spade, saying their beliefs are bullshit, will drive more of them to extremism, what does that say about their beliefs?[/QUOTE] Literally nobody is saying not to call out extremists. They're saying doing things like banning or targeting entire populations will drive more people to radicalism. It's not a matter of "oh we're being called evil, we should do good to prove we are good" it, we're being banned from a country and actively targeted, maybe there's some credence to what these extremist groups are saying about the west oppressing us". People have a tendency to turn to shitty deeds when they feel threatened.
Just a little update for you guys, I said 2 of my friends/coworkers were there. They both made it to the hospital, one is stable, but the other didn't make it. It's devastating and nobody deserves this to happen to them.
[QUOTE=Anderan;50505908]Literally nobody is saying not to call out extremists. They're saying doing things like banning or targeting entire populations will drive more people to radicalism. It's not a matter of "oh we're being called evil, we should do good to prove we are good" it, we're being banned from a country and actively targeted, maybe there's some credence to what these extremist groups are saying about the west oppressing us". People have a tendency to turn to shitty deeds when they feel threatened.[/QUOTE] Anyone who could be driven to radicalism by a ban on Muslims entering the country seems like people we don't want in the country. Like I said, if there are people with beliefs that fragile, what does it say about their beliefs? It just states the obvious. There are religious people with such fucked up beliefs inherent to the way they digest their religion, that there is nothing we can do. We can't stop these people, even we pretend that their beliefs aren't harmful to western society. We either have to sacrifice our freedoms and privacy to minimize things like this, or we just get used to it happening. Either way, we have to convince this small population of Muslims that what they believe is total bullshit.
[QUOTE=Ltp0wer;50505878]Maybe I'm missing something, but why would a racist/islamiphobic response to these events cause peaceful Muslims to become radicalized? "Oh, see the attacks on islam after this event? They're calling us barbarians and terrorists. I'll teach them a lesson and carry out a terrorist attack." It doesn't make any sense. I don't think those reactions drive people to extremism. It seems to me that a small portion of Muslims really believe that attacking "infidels" is the right thing to do, regardless of the effects. Why would rightfully calling them out on their bullshit religion drive them to further separate their ideals with modern western society? I wish it was that easy. The idea that if we just ignored their shitty beliefs, it would all go away seems like nonsense. That's not the problem. The problem is the ideas of martyrism and paradise that are inherent to their fucked up beliefs in the holiness of the Koran and the Hadith. If we really think that calling a spade a spade, saying their beliefs are bullshit, will drive more of them to extremism, what does that say about their beliefs?[/QUOTE] You're not getting the point; the goal of these attacks is to try to drive a wedge between Muslim populations in the west with the rest of the people in the country they live with. By launching attacks such as these, they're hoping that people will carry out reprisal attacks, murder innocent Muslims, burn mosques, and marginalize communities to the point that younger members see ISIS as a savior rather than the devil.
[QUOTE=1nfiniteseed;50506040]You're not getting the point; the goal of these attacks is to try to drive a wedge between Muslim populations in the west with the rest of the people in the country they live with. By launching attacks such as these, they're hoping that people will carry out reprisal attacks, murder innocent Muslims, burn mosques, and marginalize communities to the point that younger members see ISIS as a savior rather than the devil.[/QUOTE] Nobody has advocated the murder of innocent muslims.
[QUOTE=Ltp0wer;50506021]Anyone who could be driven to radicalism by a ban on Muslims entering the country seems like people we don't want in the country. Like I said, if there are people with beliefs that fragile, what does it say about their beliefs? It just states the obvious. There are religious people with such fucked up beliefs inherent to the way they digest their religion, that there is nothing we can do. We can't stop these people, even we pretend that their beliefs aren't harmful to western society. We either have to sacrifice our freedoms and privacy to minimize things like this, or we just get used to it happening. Either way, we have to convince this small population of Muslims that what they believe is total bullshit.[/QUOTE] Again, it's not so much the ban specifically, it's the fact that an entire population is being targeted. It's not even really just about people looking to enter the country, the policy would convince people who never had any intention of entering the US that the US has it out for them like they keep getting told. So instead of improving perceptions and helping to slowly deradicalize the more moderate fundamentalists, it just serves as a justification to their mistrust.
[QUOTE=FetusFondler;50506056]Nobody has advocated the murder of innocent muslims.[/QUOTE] I'm saying that that's what ISIS wants to happen, not what has actually happened so far.
[QUOTE=bepassley;50505986]Just a little update for you guys, I said 2 of my friends/coworkers were there. They both made it to the hospital, one is stable, but the other didn't make it. It's devastating and nobody deserves this to happen to them.[/QUOTE] I'm so sorry, man. It's easy online to depersonalize things, argue the same old tired lines until we're red in the face. For the rest of us, this is just a news story, if we let it be, but your account is a sobering reminder that this shit isn't just talking points. I don't know what I can say to bring any comfort to you, your co-workers, or your poor fucking friends, but I find myself feeling sick considering what you all must be going through right now. I don't want to be party to this bickering anymore right now. I owe at least a few days of peace to the people whose lives have been lost or changed forever before I contribute to the storm.
[QUOTE=Glitchman;50504763]How did he get flagged by the fbi for links for terrorism then have no problems getting a gun. I mean I'm personally against bans on gun but that seems fucked up. They need better checks and they need to make it harder for people to get these weapons[/QUOTE] Believe it or not, there are people who argue that people who are suspected terrorists should be able to buy guns, because they think the government will just arbitrarily label THEM terrorists. I am NOT making this up. [editline]12th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=bepassley;50505986]Just a little update for you guys, I said 2 of my friends/coworkers were there. They both made it to the hospital, one is stable, but the other didn't make it. It's devastating and nobody deserves this to happen to them.[/QUOTE] You have my condolences.
Oh boy. [QUOTE=Ltp0wer;50506021]Anyone who could be driven to radicalism by a ban on Muslims entering the country seems like people we don't want in the country. Like I said, if there are people with beliefs that fragile, what does it say about their beliefs?[/QUOTE]What does it say? Nothing. Mere beliefs are things that can change, I believe it's going to stop raining soon, I believe the power won't go out, but these are things I cannot prove. They're beliefs. Really a belief is a strong opinion, what makes it a [I]conviction[/I] takes some convincing. I have a strong conviction for liberty, I have been convinced of it's merits and I can strongly argue on it's behalf. I will die for liberty if I need to, be it mine or yours. Why? I have a strong conviction for it, some may call me a zealot for individualism because my belief is that unshakable. [QUOTE]There are religious people with such fucked up beliefs inherent to the way they digest their religion, that there is nothing we can do. We can't stop these people, even we pretend that their beliefs aren't harmful to western society.[/QUOTE]So building off my above statement let's talk about extremism, having so much zeal for what you believe in that you're willing to do [U]extreme[/U] things for it. By default humans are adverse to conflict that can result in serious consequences, people actually aren't very violent when engaged one on one and forced to face potential loss of life and limb. This is understandable, I don't think I need to explain why people are afraid of getting maimed or worse, but the thing is [I]everyone[/I] is capable of transcending that fear. Sometimes circumstances make it so there isn't any alternatives, that the inevitable end result is the end of one's life, or in certain cases [I]way[/I] of life. Maybe it's reasoning, in my example somebody could come along and make a strong argument that liberty herself is in danger and I [U]must[/U] act immediately. I might stop and weigh my options and realize that yes, this person is right, I must defend what I hold so dear or I will lose it [I]forever.[/I] I've become an extremist, and that's only one avenue that it can happen. I might just look around and "wake up" one day, I wouldn't be the first either. You could do it too, you could get [I]so frustrated[/I] with everything around you that you decide to do something drastic to fix the fucked up world in your own special, violent way. Back to hypothetical me though: Did I start out as an extremist? No, I just had strong convictions for individual rights. Nothing wrong with that, right? Well through the power of suggestion and propaganda a third party has come along and instructed me that if I don't defend what I hold dear from those that would attack it I will lose it. So I start killing people, depriving them of their right to life, but I have [I]rationalized[/I] it as a just action because they were an enemy. Really if they didn't care about their individual rights then fuck 'em, they deserved it anyhow for trying to fuck up my way of life. This is war. I'm at war. I'm a soldier with a cause, a warrior who's doing the right thing. Now replace "liberty" with "Islam" and change my name from Jack to Omar. [QUOTE]Either way, we have to convince this small population of Muslims that what they believe is total bullshit.[/QUOTE][I]"I never started out 'bad,' I was just a regular Muslim who took Islam seriously, I read the Qur'an, I prayed every day, I stayed away from sin and tried my best to live in a society that has increasingly been hostile toward me. At first I tolerated it, I was raised here in America, but as I got older I realized the country I was living in had a rot in it. Secularism breeds degeneracy, the Qur'an has a specific verse that states a government that does not recognize Allah is not one I, nor any Muslim, has to follow. There are verses that some would say are 'antiquated' but seeing men kiss on the street? Holding hands? [/I]Going to bars to drink alcohol and have sex?[I] This isn't just affecting them, it's affecting us, and somebody has got to do something about it. Islam is under fire and if I have to defend it I will."[/I] [QUOTE]We either have to sacrifice our freedoms and privacy to minimize things like this, or we just get used to it happening.[/QUOTE]I'll quote myself here:[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50504249]LGBT rights are, I think, part of the core of what makes my country great. Sure they haven't existed for a long, long time but I think restricting people's rights like that has been [I]very[/I] un-American and recently the country has realized that. Basic liberty goes hand in hand with American values, [I]it is American values[/I] so really this terrorist attack is an attack on the American way of life. That same way of life also requires that we put a leash on the government to keep it from trampling everything we hold dear. So what you seem to be implying is that the destruction of who we are as a people, as a society, is worth it as long as the "bad guys" get caught. Thing is, the rights of everyone in that bar to gather as they please and do as they please so as long as it doesn't harm the life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness of others would be indirectly under assault as well. Arguing for "doing more" means arguing for enabling the government to go back on it's word, letting go of that leash a little bit, which also could mean going back on LGBT rights [I]many[/I] people have suffered for in this country. I'm not willing to sacrifice any of that, nor am I willing to let the guy who did this succeed in bringing us down.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50505357]I'd rather not sacrifice all our rights because a very small minority (a minority of a minority actually) decides to say stupid shit. I hate the shit out of Islam but Muslims, even radical ones, have every right to say whatever crazy fucking shit they want and I support that.[/QUOTE] I'll stand by my words here, and as a satanist I'm truly surprised you're arguing for sacrificing freedom and privacy to chase after religious people; the cognitive dissonance you're demonstrating is [I]astounding.[/I] People are still convinced that you people sacrifice children, and what's even more bizarre is most flavors of satanism are just anarchist principles draped in the robes of religion. Either that or you're actually just a mere contrarian who's suddenly realized that the world is actually a dangerous place. So yeah, I say get used to this statistically insignificant event being a very, very rare occurrence.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;50507500]Believe it or not, there are people who argue that people who are suspected terrorists because they think the government will just arbitrarily label THEM terrorists. I am NOT making this up.[/QUOTE] It has been demonstrated again and again that the government will abuse any power it is allowed to have. If they are allowed to put anyone they want on a list that bans them from having guns, with no due process, then I guarantee you that the list will grow to absurd dimensions. Would you advocate for suspected terrorists to be gagged and have their 1st Amendment rights stripped from them? I am guessing not; why does it matter [I]which[/I] Amendment it is?
[QUOTE=bepassley;50505986]Just a little update for you guys, I said 2 of my friends/coworkers were there. They both made it to the hospital, one is stable, but the other didn't make it. It's devastating and nobody deserves this to happen to them.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry for your loss. Nobody should have to go through that.
[QUOTE=bepassley;50505986]Just a little update for you guys, I said 2 of my friends/coworkers were there. They both made it to the hospital, one is stable, but the other didn't make it. It's devastating and nobody deserves this to happen to them.[/QUOTE] My sincere condolences. It always shakes me a bit to know that there are people out there willing to inflict such harm upon others. I wish you and everyone else the best. Take care there.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/5W3twy9.png[/img] Fucking disgusting.
[QUOTE=BazzBerry;50508236][img]http://i.imgur.com/5W3twy9.png[/img] Fucking disgusting.[/QUOTE] If there's one place we drop a bomb, it's on that shit stain of a cult. Not the middle east...
This whole situation is just messed up, wow. I was watching videos and saw that gal Mina Justice showing the texts he son sent her as he hid in the bathroom and that "he's coming, I'm gonna die." and that was the last she got and how she hasn't heard from him. Then I clicked on another article where they released 15 victim's names so far and "Eddie Jamoldroy Justice" was on it. That was a somber discovery. It all just leaves me sick. Why the fuck can't people get along? Why do some people have to become radicals and kill other people for thinking/living differently? Damnit... Hearing all the stories is heartbreaking, the interview with Ms. Leinonen is really tough.
[QUOTE=clutch2;50508433]This whole situation is just messed up, wow. I was watching videos and saw that gal Mina Justice showing the texts he son sent her as he hid in the bathroom and that "he's coming, I'm gonna die." and that was the last she got and how she hasn't heard from him. Then I clicked on another article where they released 15 victim's names so far and "Eddie Jamoldroy Justice" was on it. That was a somber discovery. It all just leaves me sick. Why the fuck can't people get along? Why do some people have to become radicals and kill other people for thinking/living differently? Damnit... Hearing all the stories is heartbreaking, the interview with Ms. Leinonen is really tough.[/QUOTE] Messed up people getting their hands on things they should have never been allowed to get their hands on in the first place.
[QUOTE=sb27;50508488]Messed up people getting their hands on things they should have never been allowed to get their hands on in the first place.[/QUOTE] again, just because he ended up on a watch list wouldn't have stopped him from getting his hands on a gun. You're not supposed to arbitrarily limit somebody's rights just because you think they might be a danger to themselves or others around them without due probable cause and without the safety net of due process.
[QUOTE=BazzBerry;50508236][img]http://i.imgur.com/5W3twy9.png[/img] Fucking disgusting.[/QUOTE] Please stop giving them attention I feel like people keep looking to the WBC to be outraged and I find that to be worse than the WBC. You being outraged is what gives them power and the motive to continue on.
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