Hostage situation taking place now in Orlando. [50+ dead, suspect killed]
916 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50514896]chainsaws were made to cut wood. hammers to hit nails. guns to kill people as efficiently as possible. imagine people still using the 'tool' argument.
yeah how would removing the things designed to kill people with ease prevent some people from being killed with ease? what the hecks![/QUOTE]
The entire point of the 2nd amendment was self defense. They had perspective because they were citizens that had to combat off an armed and powerful government for their freedom.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50514920]look, i'm not sure what the statistics are, but that doesn't sound right to me.[/QUOTE]
Really dude?
Are you serious? You dont look anything up, know nothing about the subject besides some news stories that happen from time to time and you think you know everything there is to know? What high horse are you riding, its a tad too tall, my friend.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50514920]reminder that this dude was a legal gun owner.[/QUOTE]
Alright, and?
I kill a man with a knife, ban the knives. I kill a man with a socket wrench, ban the wrench.
The problem is mental, you're removing a tool, not the problem, you dont solve a problem by curing a symptom.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;50514921]Did you know the guns used in the columbine massacre were obtained illegaly.[/QUOTE]
do you know how they were obtained illegally? a surplus of them in your country.
because they're so widely available legally.
do you know how hard it is to get a gun in a country where they're illegal? so incredibly difficult it's more than likely people give up before they can fulfill their destruction (or maybe do it with something less lethal).
you guys are so used to guns you literally can't see the forest for the trees
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50514880]do you at least acknowledge that increasing the amount of guns will create even more problems?[/QUOTE]
I think the underlying issue is a crime problem in the US. So if you throw more guns at a problem without fixing the problem, yeah, you're going to probably get more bloodshed. Like arming militant groups as an attempt to fix a crisis in a country where the problem lies deeper than the fact that people are shooting at each other. I think the thing that needs to be fixed is [I]why[/I] are people shooting at each other in the first place.
There's a reason why a pistol in the hands of an enthusiast in his mid-40's hasn't killed someone, while the very same model pistol in the hands of a 17 year old that was born into a turf war has. I don't have a problem with people having access to whatever gun they want. The question is how do we make people less inclined to murder with them.
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50514926]The entire point of the 2nd amendment was self defense. They had perspective because they were citizens that had to combat off an armed and powerful government for their freedom.[/QUOTE]
yeah and in what year was that again
[editline]14th June 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=AaronM202;50514932]
I kill a man with a knife, ban the knives. I kill a man with a socket wrench, ban the wrench.
The problem is mental, you're removing a tool, not the problem, you dont solve a problem by curing a symptom.[/QUOTE]
equating a wrench with a gun is willfully ignorant rhetoric. you can't kill 50 people at a club with a wrench, or even a knife. guns are long range, automatic, and everything every other tool not designed for killing isn't. yeah you can kill someone with anything if you're determined
but can't carry out a full frontal assault
[editline]14th June 2016[/editline]
yeah the problem is also mental. it doesn't mean you don't have two problems on your hands
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50514939]yeah and in what year was that again
[/QUOTE]
It was only 240 years ago
I feel like in this particular situation where the perpetrator had been influenced by terror groups, if he couldn't have gotten his hands on a gun, he could've created a bomb instead. Using one of the many publications put out by terror groups as instruction. We're lucky he didn't do that.
"It is the $current_year! We must change!"
Is that your only retort? Do you seriously believe that the revolution couldnt have been today? I'd argue if it happened today it may have failed TBH.
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50514979]"It is the $current_year! We must change!"
Is that your only retort? Do you seriously believe that the revolution couldnt have been today? I'd argue if it happened today it may have failed TBH.[/QUOTE]
are you saying there's anything at all similar about the day and age we live in to 240 years ago?
[editline]14th June 2016[/editline]
imagine for a quick sec that guns didn't exist. do you think, if they were made now, you would go 'wow! this is something EVERYBODY should have!'. something many americans cannot seem to do, is look at the situation objectively. you've got most of the world telling you how fucked up you are, but there's some sort of weird denial going on, which leads to inaction, which leads to more stuff like this
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50514939]y
equating a wrench with a gun is willfully ignorant rhetoric. you can't kill 50 people at a club with a wrench, or even a knife. guns are long range, automatic, and everything every other tool not designed for killing isn't. yeah you can kill someone with anything if you're determined
but can't carry out a full frontal assault
[/QUOTE]
Yeah you can.
Happened in China.
[editline]13th June 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50514987]imagine for a quick sec that guns didn't exist. do you think, if they were made now, you would go 'wow! this is something EVERYBODY should have!'.[/QUOTE]
Given how good they were at predicting and thinking of as many possible outcomes and loopholes with the systems they put in place, considering the constitution has remained virtually the same for two and a half centuries, yeah probably.
Give the founding fathers some credit, jesus.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;50514994]Yeah you can.
Happened in China.[/QUOTE]
alright so like once? as opposed to what regularly happens in the states?
[editline]14th June 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=AaronM202;50514994]
Give the founding fathers some credit, jesus.[/QUOTE]
no. if you're attributing the current state of the US to them, should they really be thanked
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50514987] you've got most of the world telling you how fucked up you are, but there's some sort of weird denial going on, which leads to inaction, which leads to more stuff like this[/QUOTE]
I live in rural Pennsylvania in which many people i know hunt and have guns.
We have 0 problems at all, i cant remember the last time a shooting happened here, in fact.
Theres one in this house right now, if im not mistaken.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50514987]are you saying there's anything at all similar about the day and age we live in to 240 years ago?
[editline]14th June 2016[/editline]
imagine for a quick sec that guns didn't exist. do you think, if they were made now, you would go 'wow! this is something EVERYBODY should have!'.[/QUOTE]
Guns weren't made "overnight". Some of the shit you say is mere tools were THE weapons ages prior to ballistics.
And yeah how couldn't a rebellion over a big government happen today? Look at NK. I bet those people wish they had arms to fight off the state. The only difference now to 240 years ago in this regard is that a big funded government would have access to more than just rifles. It was more equal armament back then.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50515004]alright so like once? as opposed to what regularly happens in the states?[/QUOTE]
Never said it happened once.
Or just in China.
And this isnt "regular"
50 people being gunned down here isnt normal. Mass shootings have a nebulous definition that can be as low as 3 people, and are often times mostly gang related.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50515004]no. if you're attributing the current state of the US to them, should they really be thanked[/QUOTE]
Considering the quality of life i have, yeah.
You cant really tell me my life is shit when its not btw.
The only rifle I have might as well be a club because it's a Japanese WWII rifle I got from my late grandfather and it takes ammo that can only be found online and I haven't been bothered to buy that stuff in bulk so it's not hurting anyone anytime soon. :v:
[QUOTE=AaronM202;50515011]
We have 0 problems at all, i cant remember the last time a shooting happened here, in fact.
[/QUOTE]
same. in my entire country. because i was 5
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50515017]Guns weren't made "overnight". Some of the shit you say is mere tools were THE weapons ages prior to ballistics.[/QUOTE]
Axes, hammers, knives, and swords (essentially long knives) were very much so the bleeding edge in weapons technology at one point or another and were designed purely for killing.
You did know that, right Rusty?
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50515017]Guns weren't made "overnight". Some of the shit you say is mere tools were THE weapons ages prior to ballistics.
And yeah how couldn't a rebellion over a big government happen today? Look at NK. I bet those people wish they had arms to fight off the state. The only difference now to 240 years ago in this regard is that a big funded government would have access to more than just rifles. It was more equal armament back then.[/QUOTE]
ahh yeah comparing a first world country to north korea. that makes a lot of sense!
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50515030]same. in my entire country. because i was 5[/QUOTE]
You had a hostage situation in which people got shot like a few months ago what are you talking about.
[editline]13th June 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50515040]ahh yeah comparing a first world country to north korea. that makes a lot of sense![/QUOTE]
Ignore context and content.
He's drawing comparisons to NK and us in relation to our revolutionary war and the oppression felt as a result of the British empire, in broad terms.
Rusty please dont be dumb, come on.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50515040]ahh yeah comparing a first world country to north korea. that makes a lot of sense![/QUOTE]
America wouldn't be a first world country if the revolution didn't happen
The term even came from the Cold War, essentially an arms race
[editline]13th June 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=AaronM202;50515043]You had a hostage situation in which people got shot like a few months ago what are you talking about.
[editline]13th June 2016[/editline]
Ignore context and content.
He's drawing comparisons to NK and us in relation to our revolutionary war and the oppression felt as a result of the British empire, in broad terms.
Rusty please dont be dumb, come on.[/QUOTE]
Yeah apparently other countries don't count and neither does anything that hasn't happened in 2016.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;50515039]Axes, hammers, knives, and swords (essentially long knives) were very much so the bleeding edge in weapons technology at one point or another and were designed purely for killing.
You did know that, right Rusty?[/QUOTE]
axes and hammers have other primary purposes, knives made for the kitchen suck as weapons, and nobody should have a sword.
just because they were the go to at some point for killing doesn't bring them anywhere near the efficiency of a firearm. as weapons got more and more efficient, at some point long the line, you should probably be like 'wow, okay, people probably shouldn't be able to have these anymore'
there's a difference between a solid piece of metal that people use to cut down trees, and an intricate, handheld machine, designed solely to cause destruction to other people. there is a difference. not all tools should be treated equally.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;50514876]Explain to me how this works. Tell me how people having the desire to do something is stopped by simply removing one optional tool in doing so.[/QUOTE]
These are a bit more than "one optional tool". They are the most efficient tool for doing this we as a species have built that isn't on wheels or dropped from a fucking plane. They are specifically engineered "tools" designed to project lethal projectiles across long distances in no time at all, with minimal effort from the user.
Stop using this dumb as fuck "hurr hurr they r tool" argument. A firearm is a weapon. A fucking effective one at that. A screwdriver is in no way comparable to a firearm in terms of murder potential.
There are likely many actually good arguments you could make in favour of these fucking things, so why always opt for this shit-tier insult of an argument?
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50515071] there is a difference. not all tools should be treated equally.[/QUOTE]
Hm.
Isnt that exactly what you're doing though?
Because Rusty put it forward. OvB already said it the best IMO.
-snip, hold on, i got lost for a second-
[QUOTE=AaronM202;50515086]Hm.
Isnt that exactly what you're doing though?[/QUOTE]
nah. i'm treating guns as the efficient killing machines they are, to other tools.
yeah a pistol isn't as efficient as an automatic rifle. but it's still way more efficient than, like, anything else (that isn't a gun)
Snup
[QUOTE=Quiet;50514922]I guess hunters can just go fuck themselves.[/QUOTE]
You want to hunt? Sick. Why do you need access to pistols, a majority of civilian rifles, etc? You're hunting, concealability of a firearm is a non-issue. The only things that matter are calibre, accuracy and the fucking thing not falling apart.
This isn't a great argument for personal ownership, hunting can work as a business venture or a sport. Those don't exactly overlap with "because i want it lol".
Bare in mind I'm not against ownership for business or sport, even we have exemptions for that. Along with some other weapons that are just impossibly unwieldy to try and use for "defence" purposes.
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50515103]Snup[/QUOTE]
Why'd you snip it?
Nail guns are just low powered pistols that shoot nails.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;50515011]I live in rural Pennsylvania in which many people i know hunt and have guns.
[B]
We have 0 problems at all, i cant remember the last time a shooting happened here, in fact. [/B]
Theres one in this house right now, if im not mistaken.[/QUOTE]
2 months ago
[url]http://abc7chicago.com/news/church-member-charged-in-fatal-shooting-after-victim-wouldnt-give-up-seat/1313747/[/url]
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