• Hostage situation taking place now in Orlando. [50+ dead, suspect killed]
    916 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50523170]except they were still accepting the authority of the state in itself? they were just protesting a particular law they took issue with, rather than the actual concept of laws in themselves.[/QUOTE]That's still consent though, the scope doesn't really matter. When I recognize the authority of the state I'm just really agreeing to do what it says, if I don't want to do that anymore I won't. When they protested they didn't recognize the local government's authority to tell them what to do, they chose a non-violent way to send that message. [QUOTE]well a fence with a sign on it is just a fence with a sign on it. the actual enforcement of these rights is what matters, and unless they are enforced then you can't be really said to have these rights because otherwise you are subject to arbitrary exploitation and the like[/QUOTE]Sure, the fence and the sign are exactly that, but the concept of "my lawn does actually end here where this fence is" still remains even if the fence is gone, or if the fence is knocked down. That divide between concrete and grass is not going to go away simply because the fence hasn't been put up. I've got a whole variety of tools to make sure that fence stays where it is, I can talk about the fence, have other fences put up, hire somebody to watch my fence, shoot at anyone messing with the fence, make the fence bigger... Doesn't matter though, because the fence's purpose is only to mark where the edge of something greater. [QUOTE]in order to establish which rights are those that people can have in society - you must first establish some kind of governing body which enforces this reality. to begin with, this was to protect you from other countries but it quickly goes internal as well. rights only existinsofar as society is willing to enforce protection of those rights. living in such a society in the first place means giving up at least some freedoms in order to make it possible.[/QUOTE]No, I'm quite capable of defending myself, I think you're misunderstanding of who actually does the enforcing here. Society is made up of individuals, I bring my rights and my able body and when I say, "yes, I will agree with the rest of you to follow these laws," I've given my consent. Sure, I may concede a certain degree of personal freedom to participate and so does everyone else, but this concession can be revoked at any time. I can say, "no, I really don't want to not steal shit," and then viola, I no longer consent to property laws. This makes me a criminal, a threat, and society will react as it does to any threat if I commit a crime but that requires an application of force. I talked earlier about force. We empower some members of society to enforce these laws we've made but they are only so many, ultimately the relationship between a thief and those he preys on is a personal one. Since societies are made of individuals it's ultimately the personal responsibility to protect one's own domain, be it from thieves, murderers, the government, or whoever else. Ultimately it's about consent, if somebody doesn't consent to being robbed and somebody attempts to force the issue then the only response is equal or greater force. This is the basic premise of the state, we [I]empower[/I] it to better apply force but it's only on a conditional basis; we're still all individuals consenting to it's existence. There's always the option of refusal to consent, that choice is ultimately something up to the individual. When I empower the government to make sure that the arbitrary exploitation you've mentioned doesn't occur, it's within the confines of an area well off my rights and behind a fence. Back when the country was first founded it was understood that the state, the government, may very well overstep it's bounds so it was deliberately shackled to keep from straying too far. That's when those fences were erected and we may have changed the design or the sign a few times, but despite these interpretations the fence has remained.
You consistently confuse freedoms with liberties to the point where it's difficult to discuss this with you without having to look condescending breaking down each in detail. It may sound super "Murrica" or whatever to you, but perhaps you don't understand what we're talking about because you've never experienced it. A man born into slavery will never yearn for freedom, you're essentially playing out the Allegory to the Cave. In your country, you are told your government has your best interests in mind, everything is for the benefit of society, and that little itch in the back of your head that sometimes says, "Hey, what if I kind of want to make my own choices instead of letting my government make them for me," is nothing to be worried about. It goes back to my previous analogy to slavery. In other countries, people live well. They are safer, there's more security, less poverty, overall quality of life may be better. But, at the end of the day, if your government wanted to barge into your homes and take everything you've ever cared about away, they could with practically no resistance. Everything you have, everyone you love, the society you hold so dear, does not belong to you. It belongs to your government, who simply allows you to borrow it. In America, there's violence. A man can go into a club and kill 50 people, wounding 50 more. Homeless line the streets of our big cities, our elections are a huge shitshow and more about making good TV than the future of the country. But a man owns his life here. You can argue homes and everything belong to the banks or government and whatnot, but come to take a man's house and he has to [I]let you take it.[/I] Because if he wants to, he can make the choice as a free man to fight for what he believes in, taking it to the grave if it goes that far. He'll probably give it up just like people in other countries will, but that's a choice [I]he[/I] has to make, it is not made for him. That choice is the backbone of this country. That choice is what the Bill of Rights is claiming all human beings are born with. Nobody gives that choice to you, you are born with it. You were born with it too, the only difference between you and me is my country didn't take it away from me, I gave it up willingly in order to make sure no American is born in the cave you were.
At the end of the day, a government cannot give. They can only take away. By being a law abiding citizen I'm agreeing to the limitation of my freedom in exchange for a society. It's not a list of what I can and cannot do as a vassal of the State. It's a list of things I should not do as a person within these borders, under threat of penalty, with a fair trial by a jury of peers where I am innocent until proven guilty. The American perspective is that Government is not, and should not be holier than thou. [editline]14th June 2016[/editline] ... And whether or not a government for the people, by the people, still actually holds up in today's interpretation of that government is up for debate. But your rights never ever really go away.
[QUOTE=Tarver;50501643]Jesus christ,people are already giving him the Dan Schneider treatment :v:[/QUOTE] The what?
[QUOTE=Kyle902;50515741]You're basically arguing that we should bring back prohibition but for guns. Look at how well prohibition was enforced and realize that banning something that widespread and deeply ingrained in our society is an impossibility.[/QUOTE] oh boy, yeah, let's compare guns to booze. that's rational! literally any reason you can think off to keep your cool and precious guns. its fucked, mate. take a step back and realise how shitty guns are. [editline]15th June 2016[/editline] they're not cool, you're not cool, it's disturbed. [editline]15th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=MaverickIB;50517650]At the end of the day, the solution resulting in the fewest deaths isn't inherently the correct one. It's a well established fact that freedom and security are held together by a very fine thread, it's often extremely difficult if not impossible to enjoy both at the same time. You could prove to everyone that banning guns absolutely positively would result in fewer deaths and all of the other aftershocks like collapsing an industry overnight leading to thousands and thousands of newly unemployed individuals [B]but[/B] you're still sacrificing liberty to do so and therefore it's a no-go for anyone who actually believes in the Constitution aka: the backbone of the United States. With freedom, comes the ability to do terrible things. Liberty goes hand in hand with sacrifice. It ultimately becomes a losing battle for the anti-gun crowd. Banning and regulating the living shit out of guns infringes on the 2nd amendment, which was designed for people to at least have a small fighting chance against a professional military. You could counter that by saying the 2nd amendment is horseshit but then you're pretty much saying, "I want America to be not-America." You're trying to change the foundation of the house without damaging the house. My request from the anti-gun crowd, especially those who aren't from the states, is to calm your nerves for a brief moment and imagine times of slavery. Try to imagine yourself as a slave at a farm/plantation/household/whatever who is treated extremely well. You're fed, clothed, treated with respect, maybe even make a little money and get free time to spend how you choose. But, at the end of the day, you still belong to someone else. Would you be happy? I guess some people would be perfectly fine with that, but many wouldn't. That was actually the case for many slaves not too long ago, and many of them very willingly gave up roofs over their heads and food in their bellies just so they could call themselves free. Men and women would rather be free and barely scrape by than be a slave and be living well off. This is the same way many people feel about firearms in America. You could make everything completely safe, ensure there's no way anyone could possibly hurt us, at the cost of taking away our ability to defend ourselves. But being at the mercy of your masters is not freedom, no matter how well they treat you. You sacrifice guaranteed security by choosing freedom, but at least you're free. And at the end of the day, that's a decision every human being, American or not, should have the right to choose. If you want to leave your protection up to the government and do not fear your masters ever bringing the whip down on you, by all means, don't invest in a semi-automatic weapon. However, just because someone wants control of their own safety does not mean they hate the masters or are paranoid, they just want responsibility for their own life and should be allowed to own a weapon they believe will secure said responsibility. [editline]13th June 2016[/editline] Not many people think an armed resistance could defeat a professional military. However, there was undoubtedly a large number of people who wanted to fight back but couldn't. On the flipside, how many resistance members do you think sat there and thought, "Man, I really wish we didn't have the capability to fight back?" The men and women who fought back died free men and women. Could you say the same for those who were put in camps to rot? Not everyone who can fight will, but all people deserve the right to choose.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=MaverickIB;50523368]You consistently confuse freedoms with liberties to the point where it's difficult to discuss this with you without having to look condescending breaking down each in detail. It may sound super "Murrica" or whatever to you, but perhaps you don't understand what we're talking about because you've never experienced it. A man born into slavery will never yearn for freedom, you're essentially playing out the Allegory to the Cave. In your country, you are told your government has your best interests in mind, everything is for the benefit of society, and that little itch in the back of your head that sometimes says, "Hey, what if I kind of want to make my own choices instead of letting my government make them for me," is nothing to be worried about. It goes back to my previous analogy to slavery. In other countries, people live well. They are safer, there's more security, less poverty, overall quality of life may be better. But, at the end of the day, if your government wanted to barge into your homes and take everything you've ever cared about away, they could with practically no resistance. Everything you have, everyone you love, the society you hold so dear, does not belong to you. It belongs to your government, who simply allows you to borrow it. In America, there's violence. A man can go into a club and kill 50 people, wounding 50 more. Homeless line the streets of our big cities, our elections are a huge shitshow and more about making good TV than the future of the country. But a man owns his life here. You can argue homes and everything belong to the banks or government and whatnot, but come to take a man's house and he has to [I]let you take it.[/I] Because if he wants to, he can make the choice as a free man to fight for what he believes in, taking it to the grave if it goes that far. He'll probably give it up just like people in other countries will, but that's a choice [I]he[/I] has to make, it is not made for him. That choice is the backbone of this country. That choice is what the Bill of Rights is claiming all human beings are born with. Nobody gives that choice to you, you are born with it. You were born with it too, the only difference between you and me is my country didn't take it away from me, I gave it up willingly in order to make sure no American is born in the cave you were.[/QUOTE] fuck. talk about unhinged. i hope you're on a watch list dude
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50523481] fuck. talk about unhinged. i hope you're on a watch list dude[/QUOTE] Here I am having a perfectly civil discussion and you gotta drop in, add absolutely nothing to it, and toss out insults. Interesting how we've both been on this forum for a decade yet only one of us has grown up. I'm the unhinged one. Good talk.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50523481] fuck. talk about unhinged. i hope you're on a watch list dude[/QUOTE] What's wrong with what he wrote?
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;50523574]Here I am having a perfectly civil discussion and you gotta drop in, add absolutely nothing to it, and toss out insults. Interesting how we've both been on this forum for a decade yet only one of us has grown up. I'm the unhinged one. Good talk.[/QUOTE] Going to have to agree with this. All you've done Rusty is call him unhinged while he provided an actualy response with substance.
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;50523574]Here I am having a perfectly civil discussion and you gotta drop in, add absolutely nothing to it, and toss out insults. Interesting how we've both been on this forum for a decade yet only one of us has grown up. I'm the unhinged one. Good talk.[/QUOTE] you can't have a civil discussion with someone who is an extreme nationalist with delusions of grandeur. you just need help
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;50523368]You consistently confuse freedoms with liberties to the point where it's difficult to discuss this with you without having to look condescending breaking down each in detail. It may sound super "Murrica" or whatever to you, but perhaps you don't understand what we're talking about because you've never experienced it. A man born into slavery will never yearn for freedom, you're essentially playing out the Allegory to the Cave. In your country, you are told your government has your best interests in mind, everything is for the benefit of society, and that little itch in the back of your head that sometimes says, "Hey, what if I kind of want to make my own choices instead of letting my government make them for me," is nothing to be worried about. It goes back to my previous analogy to slavery. In other countries, people live well. They are safer, there's more security, less poverty, overall quality of life may be better. But, at the end of the day, if your government wanted to barge into your homes and take everything you've ever cared about away, they could with practically no resistance. Everything you have, everyone you love, the society you hold so dear, does not belong to you. It belongs to your government, who simply allows you to borrow it. In America, there's violence. A man can go into a club and kill 50 people, wounding 50 more. Homeless line the streets of our big cities, our elections are a huge shitshow and more about making good TV than the future of the country. But a man owns his life here. You can argue homes and everything belong to the banks or government and whatnot, but come to take a man's house and he has to [I]let you take it.[/I] Because if he wants to, he can make the choice as a free man to fight for what he believes in, taking it to the grave if it goes that far. He'll probably give it up just like people in other countries will, but that's a choice [I]he[/I] has to make, it is not made for him. That choice is the backbone of this country. That choice is what the Bill of Rights is claiming all human beings are born with. Nobody gives that choice to you, you are born with it. You were born with it too, the only difference between you and me is my country didn't take it away from me, I gave it up willingly in order to make sure no American is born in the cave you were.[/QUOTE] Sorry, I quoted the wrong big long post, this is the one I was talking about
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50523646]you can't have a civil discussion with someone who is an extreme nationalist with delusions of grandeur. you just need help[/QUOTE] And you can't have a discussion without someone who won't even consider the other persons position.
[QUOTE=download;50523701]And you can't have a discussion without someone who won't even consider the other persons position.[/QUOTE] because it's fundamentally fucked. the entire basis of my position is that guns are really, really, bad. his entire contention is not only that they're good, but having them is the ultimate freedom that no other country can compete with. i've head his words. they're utterly fucked up. nevermind that every first world country has a far higher quality of life than the united states, is safer, and has less guns. forget healthcare, education, welfare, housing markets, social liberties, or electoral transparency, we have the ultimate freedom to have guns, and that trumps all. what's there to argue with that? it's going nowhere. [editline]15th June 2016[/editline] when you base your opinion of your country and others on your ability to possess a weapon capable of huge amounts of damage, and start talking about how we're slaves to our countries because we dont, there's somethin wrong.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50523727] nevermind that every first world country has a far higher quality of life than the united states, is safer, and has less guns. forget healthcare, education, welfare, housing markets, social liberties, or electoral transparency, we have the ultimate freedom to have guns, and that trumps all. [/QUOTE] Or maybe, just maybe (and you'll probably never acknowledge it because you refuse to even look at the other side of the argument), American is stuffed because it lacks those things and not because of guns. Oh, and when it comes to Social liberties, the US is doing better than Australia at the moment.
To be fair, that second post didn't even mention guns. It was a broader statement on rights/liberties in response to a kerfuffle with Sobotnik.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50523646]you can't have a civil discussion with someone who is an extreme nationalist with delusions of grandeur. you just need help[/QUOTE] You can't have a discussion with someone who insults people and doesn't discuss. If you don't have anything to contribute, then please just leave.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50523646]you can't have a civil discussion with someone who is an extreme nationalist with delusions of grandeur. you just need help[/QUOTE] Delusions of grandeur? Dude, I openly admitted many countries enjoy things Americans do not. Our streets are more dangerous, our education system sucks, politics has degraded into incessant bickering. Many countries, including yours, do things better than us, including saving lives. However, my entire point is, freedom is worth all of that to many people. Not everyone. But many. And true freedom is having the choice whether to sacrifice all of those things for the sake of having responsibility over your own life and everything it entails, or leave it up to the government to manage. Many Americans choose the latter. Many choose the former. America is America because the beliefs at the foundation of our country say all human beings are born with the right to make that choice. You have literally provided nothing to any of this. You have no counter-arguments, no evidence, not even an anecdote. There's shitposters who have inadvertently contributed more to discussions than you have. Synapses used reading your posts could have been used figuring out how to cure cancer. You posting is literally allowing cancer to live. Good job. Also, please point to where I said guns are "good." Some are tools for hunting. Many are tools for war. However, they cannot be "good" and they cannot be "bad" any more than a lathe that can rip all of your greasy hair off along with your scalp in .4 seconds is "bad." Machines are defined by their users, not their purpose.
maverick has a long facepunch history that is factored in to my reacton to his post hes made shitloads of alts and was ostracized from many different threads for his wacko posts, including the romance advice thread where he'd been making creepy and overly masculine and rapey posts for a while and kept coming back on alts when banned. often going to extreme lengths to circumvent ip bans just so he can tell us how incredible and irresistible he is. the most worrying of all is that he cannot see how it comes across this way at all, and writes paragraphs on paragraphs on why i'm the weird one and not him all of that + extreme nationalism + love for guns (+ military training?), i would be really worried if i knew him in person. that's where my post is coming from. this is a complete, genuine concern about someone elses mental state. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Sign of a weak argument is going for the personal attacks" - Craptasket))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50523832]maverick has a long facepunch history that is factored in to my reacton to his post hes made shitloads of alts and was ostracized from many different threads for his wacko posts, including the romance advice thread where he'd been making creepy and overly masculine and rapey posts for a while and kept coming back on alts when banned. often going to extreme lengths to circumvent ip bans just so he can tell us how incredible and irresistible he is. the most worrying of all is that he cannot see how it comes across this way at all, and writes paragraphs on paragraphs on why i'm the weird one and not him all of that + extreme nationalism + love for guns (+ military training?), i would be really worried if i knew him in person. that's where my post is coming from. this is a complete, genuine concern about someone elses mental state.[/QUOTE] No one cares. If you have nothing to contribute, then leave. This thread isn't about what you personally think of him. All you're doing is pulling the thread off topic.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50523874]No one cares. If you have nothing to contribute, then leave. This thread isn't about what you personally think of him. All you're doing is pulling the thread off topic.[/QUOTE] It's incredibly ontopic. Ignoring clear mental illness is part of the reason these attacks continue to occur. Mental illness and access to firearms, and more specifically in this instance, extreme homophobia, which luckily doesn't apply to mav.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50523832]maverick has a long facepunch history that is factored in to my reacton to his post hes made shitloads of alts and was ostracized from many different threads for his wacko posts, including the romance advice thread where he'd been making creepy and overly masculine and rapey posts for a while and kept coming back on alts when banned. often going to extreme lengths to circumvent ip bans just so he can tell us how incredible and irresistible he is. the most worrying of all is that he cannot see how it comes across this way at all, and writes paragraphs on paragraphs on why i'm the weird one and not him all of that + extreme nationalism + love for guns (+ military training?), i would be really worried if i knew him in person. that's where my post is coming from. this is a complete, genuine concern about someone elses mental state.[/QUOTE] You should probably snip this post, because it's really embarrassing for you. A lot of insecurity coming though it pal. You do understand you're digging up things that happened on an internet forum over 5 years ago in a desperate attempt to prove your point, right? I mean, I don't even remember anything you've ever said in the past. I have no memory of anything you did that long ago. Yet you just pretty much did a full recall how I used to post, what I did, etc. albeit in a humorously biased/exaggerated tone. That's super creepy, dude.
[QUOTE=OvB;50523411]At the end of the day, a government cannot give. They can only take away. By being a law abiding citizen I'm agreeing to the limitation of my freedom in exchange for a society. It's not a list of what I can and cannot do as a vassal of the State. It's a list of things I should not do as a person within these borders, under threat of penalty, with a fair trial by a jury of peers where I am innocent until proven guilty. The American perspective is that Government is not, and should not be holier than thou. [editline]14th June 2016[/editline] ... And whether or not a government for the people, by the people, still actually holds up in today's interpretation of that government is up for debate. But your rights never ever really go away.[/QUOTE] Here's the last real post. Rusty clearly has no intention of contributing. So let's jump back there and just ignore his off topic tangent.
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;50523900]I mean, I don't even remember anything you've ever said in the past. I have no memory of anything you did that long ago. Yet you just pretty much did a full recall how I used to post, what I did, etc. albeit in a humorously biased/exaggerated tone. That's super creepy, dude.[/QUOTE] it's not hard to remember what happened on a forum a few years ago when it was as bizarre as what i'm recalling, especially if it continues to happen literally up until this point. i remember a lot of users and their weird behaviour, because you know, i had to moderate it for 7 years. but obv im creepy for remembering how weird you are and having to moderate it. but now it is getting too offtopic. don't have anything more to say and i've said my piece anyway. no more posts required from me! guns are really bad.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50523926]it's not hard to remember what happened on a forum a few years ago when it was as bizarre as what i'm recalling, especially if it continues to happen literally up until this point. i remember a lot of users and their weird behaviour, because you know, i had to moderate it for 7 years. but now it is getting too offtopic. guns are really bad.[/QUOTE] ha ha its not creepy its like my job or something by the way lets not talk about how much of a loser i just admitted to everyone i am so how bout them guns right theyre bad Okay. You win.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50523727]because it's fundamentally fucked. the entire basis of my position is that guns are really, really, bad. his entire contention is not only that they're good, but having them is the ultimate freedom that no other country can compete with. i've head his words. they're utterly fucked up. nevermind that every first world country has a far higher quality of life than the united states, is safer, and has less guns. forget healthcare, education, welfare, housing markets, social liberties, or electoral transparency, we have the ultimate freedom to have guns, and that trumps all. what's there to argue with that? it's going nowhere. [editline]15th June 2016[/editline] when you base your opinion of your country and others on your ability to possess a weapon capable of huge amounts of damage, and start talking about how we're slaves to our countries because we dont, there's somethin wrong.[/QUOTE] What other natural rights do you feel are 'bad' and should be taken away? Free speech? The right of assembly? Equality before the law? I live in Greece. I have never set foot on the United States, and yet [I]I admire it[/I] for the fact that it recognizes that I have an inalienable right to defend my life and my property against those who would try and deprive me of it. There is [I]no way to defend yourself against burglars and wannabe-murderers without a gun[/I]. The police can not protect you from crime, they only punish people after the fact. If a burglar enters my home, [I]I am defenseless[/I] because the government has outlawed the means by which I can protect myself. But guns are scary, amirite? Never mind the fact that there are thousands of ways to cause just as much damage, if not more. Bombs are outlawed, but any 19 year old with an internet connection can make a homemade explosive. The only difference between a mass shooting and a suicide bombing is the shock value, and arguably, a suicide bombing can be much more deadly and can not be stopped after it begins. Or how about a chainsaw in an enclosed space? Should we ban chainsaws? Knives? Cars can be very deadly, should they be banned too? In the end, the government does not grant any rights. These rights exist by default, and that is what the US Constitution recognizes in the first 10 Amendments.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50523895]It's incredibly ontopic. Ignoring clear mental illness is part of the reason these attacks continue to occur. Mental illness and access to firearms, and more specifically in this instance, extreme homophobia, which luckily doesn't apply to mav.[/QUOTE] Rusty, you're not his therapist, you don't really know if he's mentally unstable, and because of that, you aren't in a position to really go and say to the world "Hey this dudes fucked in the head, he's mentally ill and unstable" with any authority, and expect to really be taken seriously in a discussion or anything else.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50523727]because it's fundamentally fucked. the entire basis of my position is that guns are really, really, bad. his entire contention is not only that they're good, but having them is the ultimate freedom that no other country can compete with. i've head his words. they're utterly fucked up. nevermind that every first world country has a far higher quality of life than the united states, is safer, and has less guns. forget healthcare, education, welfare, housing markets, social liberties, or electoral transparency, we have the ultimate freedom to have guns, and that trumps all. what's there to argue with that? it's going nowhere. [editline]15th June 2016[/editline] when you base your opinion of your country and others on your ability to possess a weapon capable of huge amounts of damage, and start talking about how we're slaves to our countries because we dont, there's somethin wrong.[/QUOTE] [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1522445&p=50517551&viewfull=1#post50517551]Hey look it's that same bullshit argument I posted about literally last page and here you are still peddling that guns are evil and we shouldn't have to right to defend ourselves. [/url] I really wish I could just copy and paste my exact post but I feel that'd be breaking some rule :v:
Someone should really change the thread title. I always think "shit, not another one".
rusty100: i dont like guns/am scared of guns therefore guns must be eradicated reasoned, logical discussion? i do not need this. i hate this thing and it must be destroyed [editline]15th June 2016[/editline] right now
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;50523368]You consistently confuse freedoms with liberties to the point where it's difficult to discuss this with you without having to look condescending breaking down each in detail. It may sound super "Murrica" or whatever to you, but perhaps you don't understand what we're talking about because you've never experienced it. A man born into slavery will never yearn for freedom, you're essentially playing out the Allegory to the Cave. In your country, you are told your government has your best interests in mind, everything is for the benefit of society, and that little itch in the back of your head that sometimes says, "Hey, what if I kind of want to make my own choices instead of letting my government make them for me," is nothing to be worried about. It goes back to my previous analogy to slavery. In other countries, people live well. They are safer, there's more security, less poverty, overall quality of life may be better. But, at the end of the day, if your government wanted to barge into your homes and take everything you've ever cared about away, they could with practically no resistance. Everything you have, everyone you love, the society you hold so dear, does not belong to you. It belongs to your government, who simply allows you to borrow it. In America, there's violence. A man can go into a club and kill 50 people, wounding 50 more. Homeless line the streets of our big cities, our elections are a huge shitshow and more about making good TV than the future of the country. But a man owns his life here. You can argue homes and everything belong to the banks or government and whatnot, but come to take a man's house and he has to [I]let you take it.[/I] Because if he wants to, he can make the choice as a free man to fight for what he believes in, taking it to the grave if it goes that far. He'll probably give it up just like people in other countries will, but that's a choice [I]he[/I] has to make, it is not made for him. That choice is the backbone of this country. That choice is what the Bill of Rights is claiming all human beings are born with. Nobody gives that choice to you, you are born with it. You were born with it too, the only difference between you and me is my country didn't take it away from me, I gave it up willingly in order to make sure no American is born in the cave you were.[/QUOTE] I don' t get this part: [QUOTE] You can argue homes and everything belong to the banks or government and whatnot, but come to take a man's house and he has to let you take it. Because if he wants to, he can make the choice as a free man to fight for what he believes in, taking it to the grave if it goes that far. [/QUOTE] Even in countries that are not as free as you claim America is, you can still fight for what you believe in, till the death. Nobody can take that away from anyone. So if this is what you believe the bill of rights grants you, then it doesn't grant you anything more than anywhere else in the world. Maybe apart from gun ownership which I am more than happy not to have.
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;50523368]You consistently confuse freedoms with liberties to the point where it's difficult to discuss this with you without having to look condescending breaking down each in detail. It may sound super "Murrica" or whatever to you, but perhaps you don't understand what we're talking about because you've never experienced it. A man born into slavery will never yearn for freedom, you're essentially playing out the Allegory to the Cave. In your country, you are told your government has your best interests in mind, everything is for the benefit of society, and that little itch in the back of your head that sometimes says, "Hey, what if I kind of want to make my own choices instead of letting my government make them for me," is nothing to be worried about. It goes back to my previous analogy to slavery. In other countries, people live well. They are safer, there's more security, less poverty, overall quality of life may be better. But, at the end of the day, if your government wanted to barge into your homes and take everything you've ever cared about away, they could with practically no resistance. Everything you have, everyone you love, the society you hold so dear, does not belong to you. It belongs to your government, who simply allows you to borrow it. In America, there's violence. A man can go into a club and kill 50 people, wounding 50 more. Homeless line the streets of our big cities, our elections are a huge shitshow and more about making good TV than the future of the country. But a man owns his life here. You can argue homes and everything belong to the banks or government and whatnot, but come to take a man's house and he has to [I]let you take it.[/I] Because if he wants to, he can make the choice as a free man to fight for what he believes in, taking it to the grave if it goes that far. He'll probably give it up just like people in other countries will, but that's a choice [I]he[/I] has to make, it is not made for him. That choice is the backbone of this country. That choice is what the Bill of Rights is claiming all human beings are born with. Nobody gives that choice to you, you are born with it. You were born with it too, the only difference between you and me is my country didn't take it away from me, I gave it up willingly in order to make sure no American is born in the cave you were.[/QUOTE] you do talk about freedoms and that apparently people born in countries without the second amendment are unfree, but it does seem a tad hypocritical to me that America has passed many pieces of legislation which infringe upon freedoms and nobody rose up to challenge them. when the Japanese americans were interred? when the negroes were lynched? where were the gun owners when the US government began spying on them? why do so many of them support Donald trump, a man who wants to take those very essential freedoms from people in the USA with torture and banning travel or squashing free speech? there is no difference between us and you save for some lines on a piece of paper. we fight for our rights just as much as you do, and to imply we live in subservient slavery because we collectively decided that having guns was not for us, is probably the main (if not the sole) reason I have grown to loathe a lot of pro-gun people because they consistently talk down to us like we are somehow slaves and that anybody who wants gun-control legislation is a coward or servile in nature. it's a abhorrent attitude that I really fucking resent and I'm sure a lot of other people do too
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