• Hostage situation taking place now in Orlando. [50+ dead, suspect killed]
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Anybody who argues that the UK or other western democracies are unfree countries due to lack of guns has never been to the UK or western Europe.
:snip: not worth it getting tired of this
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50525092]you do talk about freedoms and that apparently people born in countries without the second amendment are unfree, but it does seem a tad hypocritical to me that America has passed many pieces of legislation which infringe upon freedoms and nobody rose up to challenge them. when the Japanese americans were interred? when the negroes were lynched? where were the gun owners when the US government began spying on them? why do so many of them support Donald trump, a man who wants to take those very essential freedoms from people in the USA with torture and banning travel or squashing free speech? there is no difference between us and you save for some lines on a piece of paper. we fight for our rights just as much as you do, and to imply we live in subservient slavery because we collectively decided that having guns was not for us, is probably the main (if not the sole) reason I have grown to loathe a lot of pro-gun people because they consistently talk down to us like we are somehow slaves and that anybody who wants gun-control legislation is a coward or servile in nature. it's a abhorrent attitude that I really fucking resent and I'm sure a lot of other people do too[/QUOTE] The UK doesn't even really have any lines on paper for any rights at all beyond normal legislation. Constitutional rights are pretty stupid. Uncodified all the way. Fight me.
[QUOTE=1nfiniteseed;50526220]Anybody who argues that the UK or other western democracies are unfree countries due to lack of guns has never been to the UK or western Europe.[/QUOTE] Free and not free aren't black and white. There are degrees of freedom, and Europe's ban of guns make pushes it further towards not free. If you're fine with that, then cool beans, but that doesn't mean Americans have to also be fine with that.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50528314]Free and not free aren't black and white. There are degrees of freedom, and Europe's ban of guns make pushes it further towards not free. If you're fine with that, then cool beans, but that doesn't mean Americans have to also be fine with that.[/QUOTE] We are. I feel more free without that gun culture. Much more. I feel much more free since the thought "hey that dude could carry a gun" really is so bizarre to my everyday life, even considering criminals. I've been robbed and beaten in big cities several times but the worst I encountered was knuckledusters. I feel more free since I know that criminals, if ever, don't need guns to rob me and thus still have that barrier. Sounds convoluted but I can't explain it any better
[video=youtube;OjHhXRj9D6M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjHhXRj9D6M[/video]
To those that say "guns are fun, they can be a family activity etc" How is something engineered and built to kill fun?
[QUOTE=maxolina;50528604]To those that say "guns are fun, they can be a family activity etc" How is something engineered and built to kill fun?[/QUOTE] Seriously? Have you ever imagined hunting with relatives, competing in target shooting, or just collecting can be harmless fun. Guess we better ban swords to with that logic.
[QUOTE=maxolina;50528604]To those that say "guns are fun, they can be a family activity etc" How is something engineered and built to kill fun?[/QUOTE] It just is. I'm not even a "gun" person, but it's fun to shoot targets, it's fun to learn how to properly use a handgun and how to practice proper gun safety. It's just fun.
[QUOTE=maxolina;50528604]To those that say "guns are fun, they can be a family activity etc" How is something engineered and built to kill fun?[/QUOTE] You're not going to get a response you like, because it's just not something that can really be put into words. It's just fun. Very few people come off the gun range unhappy the first time, so long as they didn't have some asshole give them a gun that would kick the shit out of their shoulder right off the bat. The only people who come off the range unhappy are the ones whose guns aren't working properly.
[QUOTE=maxolina;50528604]To those that say "guns are fun, they can be a family activity etc" How is something engineered and built to kill fun?[/QUOTE] m8 I'm pro-gun control but seriously, if you ever get a chance, go to a range and fire off a few shots. It's one of the most fun things I've ever done.
[QUOTE=Killuah;50528366]We are. I feel more free without that gun culture. Much more. I feel much more free since the thought "hey that dude could carry a gun" really is so bizarre to my everyday life, even considering criminals. I've been robbed and beaten in big cities several times but the worst I encountered was knuckledusters. I feel more free since I know that criminals, if ever, don't need guns to rob me and thus still have that barrier. Sounds convoluted but I can't explain it any better[/QUOTE] What you're describing isn't freedom, it's security, which you are welcome to favor, but don't pretend that it's freedom.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50529405]What you're describing isn't freedom, it's security, which you are welcome to favor, but don't pretend that it's freedom.[/QUOTE] I wonder why you don't have the freedom to make and concealed-carry explosives. It should be in your second amendment rights to booby-trap your house with pipe-bombs so that when the government comes to take you to an internment camp you can go down fighting. Everyone should have the right to make explosives so that if there's ever a bomb threat somewhere every civilian can go and disarm it with knowledge. Explosives are fun to blow up downrange and it can be a fun family experience for everyone. And YET, they're not in your rights.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;50530944]I wonder why you don't have the freedom to make and concealed-carry explosives. It should be in your second amendment rights to booby-trap your house with pipe-bombs so that when the government comes to take you to an internment camp you can go down fighting. Everyone should have the right to make explosives so that if there's ever a bomb threat somewhere every civilian can go and disarm it with knowledge. Explosives are fun to blow up downrange and it can be a fun family experience for everyone. And YET, they're not in your rights.[/QUOTE] stable explosives are actually legal and several types are sold in hardware stores unstable explosives are regulated but also legal like not only would this argument be stupid even if you were correct in assuming explosives are full-stop illegal, it's wrong to boot. congrats.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50531139]stable explosives are actually legal and several types are sold in hardware stores unstable explosives are regulated but also legal like not only would this argument be stupid even if you were correct in assuming explosives are full-stop illegal, it's wrong to boot. congrats.[/QUOTE] I thought making your own explosives was illegal though.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50523832]maverick has a long facepunch history that is factored in to my reacton to his post hes made shitloads of alts and was ostracized from many different threads for his wacko posts, including the romance advice thread where he'd been making creepy and overly masculine and rapey posts for a while and kept coming back on alts when banned. often going to extreme lengths to circumvent ip bans just so he can tell us how incredible and irresistible he is. the most worrying of all is that he cannot see how it comes across this way at all, and writes paragraphs on paragraphs on why i'm the weird one and not him all of that + extreme nationalism + love for guns (+ military training?), i would be really worried if i knew him in person. that's where my post is coming from. this is a complete, genuine concern about someone elses mental state.[/QUOTE] Do you keep in dept medical analysis files on everyone you talk to?
[QUOTE=sgman91;50528314]Free and not free aren't black and white. There are degrees of freedom, and Europe's ban of guns make pushes it further towards not free. If you're fine with that, then cool beans, but that doesn't mean Americans have to also be fine with that.[/QUOTE] you can argue that if you want, but it doesn't make us slaves as some people were arguing earlier in this thread it's deeply insulting and hypocritical to say such a thing, especially when the USA had several million humans enslaved at the same time that the Alamo was going on (cited as one of the reasons why having such freedom for guns is good) today a presidential candidate talks about denying muslims basic rights and infringing on the first amendment, so to argue that Europe is somehow more "unfree" is already on very shaky ground
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50528240]The UK doesn't even really have any lines on paper for any rights at all beyond normal legislation. Constitutional rights are pretty stupid. Uncodified all the way. Fight me.[/quote] m-muh magna c-carta right to rule of law there on paper. maybe doe skin
[QUOTE=sgman91;50529405]What you're describing isn't freedom, it's security, which you are welcome to favor, but don't pretend that it's freedom.[/QUOTE] Freedom to have a hospital bill ruin your life™ Seriously, why is "having a gun" basically your only criteria? How about not being stuck in a job because you're fucked if you quit (even though the pay is shit)? How about going to college if you want to, no matter what kinda money your parents are making? I'd argue freedom is largely about a lack of barriers, and if I could choose between having guns or free college/university, I'd choose the latter every time - not just because it's more relevant to me, but because it literally gives you more freedom to do what you want.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50529405]What you're describing isn't freedom, it's security, which you are welcome to favor, but don't pretend that it's freedom.[/QUOTE] A large part of freedom is the security that something bad wont happen... For example freedom from an oppressive government... or wolves. a seriously free society would have a seriously big government just to make sure noone is trying to take away freedoms from others...
Not really news, but about as relevant as the discussion going on at present: [IMG]http://i.cubeupload.com/ycGPPG.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i.cubeupload.com/0kYLrJ.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i.cubeupload.com/JZuwSL.jpg[/IMG] It's good to see that there is still some justice in the world, even if it is just a shit-head getting canned for opening his yap.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;50531180]I thought making your own explosives was illegal though.[/QUOTE] So is home making your own gun iirc, what's your point?
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50531541]So is home making your own gun iirc, what's your point?[/QUOTE] Actually both are legal as long as you don't have criminal intent and don't go about it in a way that poses danger to others (no bombs in your suburban home but out in the sticks sure) The gun can't be automatic and must be 922(r) compatible though
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;50531495]A large part of freedom is the security that something bad wont happen... For example freedom from an oppressive government... or wolves. a seriously free society would have a seriously big government just to make sure noone is trying to take away freedoms from others...[/QUOTE] Clearly you're going off a different idea of freedom. Under your idea, the most freedom would be found in solitary confinement. You would be free from essentially all of life's ills. [editline]16th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=GoDong-DK;50531453]Freedom to have a hospital bill ruin your life™ Seriously, why is "having a gun" basically your only criteria? How about not being stuck in a job because you're fucked if you quit (even though the pay is shit)? How about going to college if you want to, no matter what kinda money your parents are making? I'd argue freedom is largely about a lack of barriers, and if I could choose between having guns or free college/university, I'd choose the latter every time - not just because it's more relevant to me, but because it literally gives you more freedom to do what you want.[/QUOTE] Freedom isn't the ability to do whatever you want. It's the right to not be forced to do anything.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50532334]Freedom isn't the ability to do whatever you want. It's the right to not be forced to do anything.[/QUOTE] What do you think I'm being forced to do exactly? Pay taxes? Go to school? Maybe I can't comprehend it because I'm not from a country with Real Freedom™, but please, do explain it to me. And personally, no, I disagree - freedom is about more than simply having the liberty to do anything you want. It's about having the means, too. This really goes back to why people started banding together at all; you're able to accomplish more together (also on an individual level), even if it means that there are certain things you can't do.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50532334]Clearly you're going off a different idea of freedom. Under your idea, the most freedom would be found in solitary confinement. You would be free from essentially all of life's ills.[/QUOTE] Freedom to live, to believe what you like, to be happy, to say what you like, to do what you like. Living in society means you sacrifice some freedoms. You don't want to empty out bins so the society needs a way to make you do it, the modern way to do this is make you need money to live/be free/be happy so you are forced to work for that. Society takes away your freedom to drive while drunk because that risks you taking away someone elses freedom to live. You're not free to walk into someones house and take their stuff. You have to follow laws. This is your fear as i gather it, the fear of the state taking away your freedoms for the greater good (arguable point it might be arbitary restriction of freedom) of society. So the state takes away some freedoms. At the same time the state protects your freedoms. The police mean nobody can take your freedom, life or belongings (provided you play by the rules). The army protects you from forgein powers that might take your freedoms (more so historically than today. The states rule stopping people drunk driving means you won't have your freedom to live taken from you, the states rules stopping people from having C4 explosives is stopping your freedom to life and happiness being taken from you. This is the good part of the state. A good state would find a balance between that. A big government can protect peoples rights and freedoms, you just need the correct checks and balances. A small/none existent government cannot protect peoples rights (because threat from external state). Obviously in either case you would need to make sacrifices. In the big government state you might sacrifice some freedoms for security (don't do the quote please) such as surrendering your access to c4 explosives or surrendering your right to go round calling black people names or surrender your right to not pay driving insurance (uk). In a small/no government state you sacrifice security for freedom, no real modern examples of this since it invariably gets conquered by an invading force. Of course in the case of big government there is the fear of a big government becoming overbearing or intrusive. Decisions are no longer being made with the interests of the people in mind. Freedoms are taken arbitrarily or from fear that people might oppose the current establishment. This is why you need representation and checks and balanced on power and imo limit the amount of personal gain people can make from being in government (directly and indirectly). I've tried to avoid mentioning guns since beliefs differ here. I think you can be free without such easy access to them many here seem to think that high accessibility to guns (at cost to security) is freedom. [editline]16th June 2016[/editline] [quote]. It's the right to not be forced to do anything.[/quote] In any society/system you will be force to do things. Even an anarchist system you would be coerced to make sacrifices for the greater good of the community.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50532334]Freedom isn't the ability to do whatever you want. It's the right to not be forced to do anything.[/QUOTE] I thought people were forced to do things they didn't like in America all the time. Even in the immediate aftermath of the independence war, people were forced to pay taxes at gunpoint by the very same regime which enacted the second amendment. In the various prefectures of the USA there are many laws which force people to do things, otherwise you are punished. I don't see how this is different to any other half decent democratic society on the planet But somehow firearms makes you free, even when both our societies function very similarly? The only real difference is that a loud minority in America sees firearms as somehow a fundamental bedrock of their society For us in Europe, we see guns as a mundane and functional item. To gun weirdos, it is the basis of an entire culture
[QUOTE=Killuah;50528366]We are. I feel more free without that gun culture. Much more. I feel much more free since the thought "hey that dude could carry a gun" really is so bizarre to my everyday life, even considering criminals. I've been robbed and beaten in big cities several times but the worst I encountered was knuckledusters. I feel more free since I know that criminals, if ever, don't need guns to rob me and thus still have that barrier. Sounds convoluted but I can't explain it any better[/QUOTE] I don't feel free. Guns in Greece are outlawed to an absurd degree. You can only legally purchase a weapon for hunting (it takes a lot of paperwork to apply for one and there is no guarantee that you'll get it anyway). And you can [I]only[/I] use it for hunting. If someone comes into your house and tries to kill you, [B]you[/B] will be sent to jail if you shoot him in self-defense. I live in a rural area, and there have been several burglaries in my neighborhood because the police can not stop crimes, it can only deal with the aftermath (this applies to most burglaries), and people have been killed by violent criminals in their own homes so there would be no witnesses. I am not free to defend myself and my loved ones from a violent intruder in my own home. If I do, I will be sent to jail. How is that freedom? I can see the argument behind not carrying weapons in public (it should be up to the property owners, or for public buildings up to the local communities), but how is me being at the mercy of whatever scum of society decides to break into my house freedom?
[QUOTE=FreakyMe;50531506]Not really news, but about as relevant as the discussion going on at present: [IMG]http://i.cubeupload.com/ycGPPG.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i.cubeupload.com/0kYLrJ.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i.cubeupload.com/JZuwSL.jpg[/IMG] It's good to see that there is still some justice in the world, even if it is just a shit-head getting canned for opening his yap.[/QUOTE] Honestly I hate this Twitter "let's get him fired!!" shit. Guy is a piece of shit but stuff like this is so ridiculous, if you say something bad on the internet you're immediately descended upon by hordes of dumbass Twitter activists trying to get you fired and ruin your life overnight. This guy is easy to hate, but what's the cutoff? If you're against gay marriage are you going to get fired? If you're against immigration? It's such a gross tactic.
tbh if @ing your employer with a direct link to a tweet gets you fired you prob deserved it that's way different than stalking camera models in metadata to prove you were moonlighting or something creepy like that
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