• Hostage situation taking place now in Orlando. [50+ dead, suspect killed]
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So if gun ownership laws determine how free the population is, then the most free countries are indeed the u.s., but may also include countries such as serbia, bosnia, guatemela, etc. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=srobins;50540022]They're free, just not free to own guns lol. This isn't nearly as complicated as you're making it out to be.[/QUOTE] well they are? all they have to do is vote on a law that permits people to have guns the fact that there's not really any support for such laws speaks volumes about what people think of guns here we're free to choose, and we chose not to have guns
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50543424]well they are? all they have to do is vote on a law that permits people to have guns the fact that there's not really any support for such laws speaks volumes about what people think of guns here we're free to choose, and we chose not to have guns[/QUOTE] Free to strip the rights of the minority of your population for the feeling of safety. Which you didn't get. Post ban, homicide went up in England and Wales. Its only now returning to a normal level. The US Constitution was designed to prevent such scenarios as a majority stripping the rights of the minority. Did it always succeed, no. But that was the reason behind the system and the Bill of Rights.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;50543436]Isn't this argument incredibly foolish because freedom is subjective? There's no way to quantify ones feelings of how "free" they are.[/QUOTE] I simply think its foolish for someone else to tell me how to live my life based on their feelings. And that is what this is, feelings, not hard facts. Freedom is about choice. The more things you restrict, the less choice you have. Government should have very minimal influence on my life and choices.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50543424]well they are? all they have to do is vote on a law that permits people to have guns the fact that there's not really any support for such laws speaks volumes about what people think of guns here we're free to choose, and we chose not to have guns[/QUOTE] You don't have the option to own them, so it's not real freedom. If you had the option to own, but everyone in the country made the decision not to own them for one reason or another, that'd be freedom to choose. However, the option to own them has been eliminated. It is very hard to get one in 90% of scenarios. You are not really free to choose whether you want to own one or not, the final decision has already been made for you, likely before you were born. And, even if you happen to agree with that legislation, it still isn't directly your choice whether you own a firearm or you don't , since someone is inhibiting you owning one. There is no other option besides not owning one, so you don't really have a freedom to choose. Whether that's a positive or negative loss of freedom is up to you, but it is objectively a loss of freedom.
[QUOTE=Retardation;50535060]Exactly. American gun laws are not worth debating simply because there is nothing to be done anymore. It's too late. The ship has already sailed. Guns are so ingrained into their culture that they built a massive [I]sub[/I]-culture around it. Any reasoning or logic or plain fucking empathy does not apply to those who ferociously believe guns are a human right. Some Americans, by and large, consciously choose to indulge in their hobby at the cost of human life and general safety of their fellow countrymen. But it's alright because it's not even their fault, it's the fault of the founding fathers who didn't think shit through and those that came after them who chose not to sweep up the mess they left behind -- and who let this dumb "culture" evolve and develop into what it is today. You can flaunt your 'statistics' (unscientific, flawed, cherry picked, XYZ bias), and 'data' (often not peer reviewed, conducted with an agenda in mind, skewed to fit a narrative, half-truth), and graphs and use your famous mental gymnastics, but you can't run away from the simple fact that guns kill people. A lot. Completely preventable and avoidable. Just boom, dead. Because you think you have a right to defend yourself in case of home intrusion not realizing you're literally putting guns in the hands of the intruders yourself by actively supporting this stupid culture and its consequences. Because you think firing guns on the weekends with your friends is worth all the lives lost in the indirect process, in the background. Because you think hunting is a good enough reason to let teachers carry firearms. Because you think freedom is being free [I]to do[/I] something instead of being free [I]from[/I] something. Like preventable deaths. [/QUOTE] Pretty much this. As long as this culture exists, the shootings will never stop.
[QUOTE=evilweazel;50543470]You don't have the option to own them, so it's not real freedom. If you had the option to own, but everyone in the country made the decision not to own them for one reason or another, that'd be freedom to choose. However, the option to own them has been eliminated. It is very hard to get one in 90% of scenarios. You are not really free to choose whether you want to own one or not, the final decision has already been made for you, likely before you were born. And, even if you happen to agree with that legislation, it still isn't directly your choice whether you own a firearm or you don't , since someone is inhibiting you owning one. There is no other option besides not owning one, so you don't really have a freedom to choose. Whether that's a positive or negative loss of freedom is up to you, but it is objectively a loss of freedom.[/QUOTE] it is, but we are still free to choose legislation and we are still not slaves or somehow lower for it it's a minor change, and one we can choose to reverse anytime we like if people vote for it through our democratic institutions. [editline]18th June 2016[/editline] we're not a dictatorship where the despot arbitrarily imposes laws on us we make our own laws, hence we are still free
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50543496]it is, but we are still free to choose legislation and we are still not slaves or somehow lower for it it's a minor change, and one we can choose to reverse anytime we like if people vote for it through our democratic institutions. [editline]18th June 2016[/editline] we're not a dictatorship where the despot arbitrarily imposes laws on us we make our own laws, hence we are still free[/QUOTE] Didn't say you were lower or enslaved or anything, thats a dumb argument to make about basically any western nation. But it is a complete loss of freedom in that regard. It may be possible to get it back, but I subscribe to the line of thought that government power is a ratchet and it rarely relinquishes its power over the people, even if it's what they want.
[QUOTE=evilweazel;50543573]Didn't say you were lower or enslaved or anything, thats a dumb argument to make about basically any western nation.[/quote] Well, it was what was being argued earlier in the thread by the likes of MaverickIB [quote]But it is a complete loss of freedom in that regard. It may be possible to get it back, but I subscribe to the line of thought that government power is a ratchet and it rarely relinquishes its power over the people, even if it's what they want.[/QUOTE] I subscribe to the line of thought that government power is constantly in flux and subject to constant influence to move it in pretty much any direction. We live in democracies, not dictatorships. There's not much separating me and you.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50543621]Well, it was what was being argued earlier in the thread by the likes of MaverickIB I subscribe to the line of thought that government power is constantly in flux and subject to constant influence to move it in pretty much any direction. We live in democracies, not dictatorships. There's not much separating me and you.[/QUOTE] Governments desire power. And that is due to human nature. The politicians, when they are in power, generally desire more power. Quite a few will lie their way through election cycles. It happens here and elsewhere. Politicians promising us everything we desire, but once they are in office they do not meet most, if not all, of their campaign promises. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Its pretty obvious that we have different views on government. I look at government with a skeptical eye. Others tend to be more prone to just trusting. But it doesn't take much to find excesses of government.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;50543092]So if gun ownership laws determine how free the population is, then the most free countries are indeed the u.s., but may also include countries such as serbia, bosnia, guatemela, etc. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE] Nobody said gun ownership is a final metric of freedom, I don't know why you think it's necessary to totally misconstrue what people are saying like this. Gun ownership is a freedom. Singular. One of many freedoms that contribute to the overall freedom of a society. [editline]18th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;50543424]well they are? all they have to do is vote on a law that permits people to have guns the fact that there's not really any support for such laws speaks volumes about what people think of guns here we're free to choose, and we chose not to have guns[/QUOTE] You chose to relinquish the freedom to own guns. Not saying that's bad, but you're going to extreme lengths to say that 2+2=5. Being prohibited by law from doing or owning something is not a freedom. Sorry. Here's a definition: [Quote] exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50543496] we're not a dictatorship where the despot arbitrarily imposes laws on us we make our own laws, hence we are still free[/QUOTE] Who is we?
[QUOTE=DeEz;50543495]Pretty much this. As long as this culture exists, the shootings will never stop.[/QUOTE] No im pretty sure as long as human beings exist, violence will never cease. Source: The fact that violent crime still exists in... Everywhere else. [editline]18th June 2016[/editline] Hold up, didnt one of the deadliest mass shootings ever by a lone individual take place in your country? [editline]18th June 2016[/editline] Wait that was Norway.
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