German MPs warn losing Britain will be "disastrous" for Europe's economy - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Jsm;39172028]Again, what laws? People always say this but never actually list any laws that had any real effect on us. Mind you the EU doesn't actually pass laws so..[/QUOTE] They pass directives which basically forces countries to make laws that follow these regulations. Unless the country wants a trial at the European Court of Justice.

[QUOTE=TehMentos;39174219]They pass directives which basically forces countries to make laws that follow these regulations. Unless the country wants a trial at the European Court of Justice.[/QUOTE] Countries can (and have) opt out of directives as and when they please. Even if they do accept them no one seems to actually enforce them.

[QUOTE=Jsm;39174568]Countries can (and have) opt out of directives as and when they please. Even if they do accept them no one seems to actually enforce them.[/QUOTE] What's the point of such directives then?

If Britian leaves, then it'll be catastrophic for everyone. They're bailing ship because that's easiest short-term, and also strokes their ego about the british empire. [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;39174576]What's the point of such directives then?[/QUOTE] Making dealing with affairs across borders easier. Also they'd need to present a valid reason for opting out and not just for [I]"shit & giggles"[/I]

[QUOTE=TehMentos;39174219]They pass directives which basically forces countries to make laws that follow these regulations. Unless the country wants a trial at the European Court of Justice.[/QUOTE] Again, who is 'they'? Isn't this 'they' made up of representatives (some elected, some appointed) from the member nations?

Directives set goals that one or more countries must fulfill within a certain time frame. How they achieve the goal is up to them, usually it means that a specific country have to adapt their laws in order to meet the goal. If they can't reach the goal within the time set, they receive a hefty fine, unless they're given more time.

[QUOTE=BloodRayne;39171987]We want out of the uk because we don't want all these extra EU laws governing us, it's too much. However we want to still keep trading, which we can do in the common wealth anyway.[/QUOTE] The majority of our trade is with, surprise surprise, Europe. It's nearby, stable and wealthy, and contains a wide range of industries. The nearest Commonwealth country is Canada - over the Atlantic. It contains a lot of raw materials, but as our manufacturing base depletes, what are we actually going to do with them? The other Commonwealth countries are even further away, and the trading options are limited. Okay, India provides good trade links, but we're unlikely to step that up much further. Europe is a good deal for us. We can sell stuff like our pharmaceuticals and aerospace tech, and also importantly we can buy cheap food out of season. If we leave the EU, not only will our farmers lose money and a marketplace, but the price of food will increase again, putting an even bigger strain on families in Britain.

[QUOTE=Vasili;39171888]We can strengthen the commonwealth with rising economies like India. Becoming a state of the USA is frankly a death wish as they won't last in the future. Keeping trade open and free to the EU is obviously vital though.[/QUOTE] The commonwealth: sounds unlikely but probably workable back then, very delusional today. And I thought people don't like their sovereignty to be violated by supranational entities?

[QUOTE=Van-man;39174702] Also they'd need to present a valid reason for opting out and not just for [I]"shit & giggles"[/I][/QUOTE] Or they could keep refusing and watch as nothing happens, for example the thing that says prisoners must have the right to vote...

[QUOTE=Megafan;39174707]Again, who is 'they'? Isn't this 'they' made up of representatives (some elected, some appointed) from the member nations?[/QUOTE] The commission alone has the legislative initiative in the EU. The commissioners each represent one member state, but they are all required to work in the interest of the EU. The commissioners are NOT elected by the member states, which is one of many examples of the EU being as democratic as the Soviet Union. And no, the EU parliament does not represent the member states even if they're elected in there. In 2009 the voter turnout was just 43,24%, which suits the Commission just fine. You can't blame the people of the EU that they don't participate in the elections, news media hardly covers it and the whole system is far from transparent. They basically don't know what they're voting for. Also the only time countries like the UK and Denmark have voted to join the EU was back when it was called EC. At that time it was not clear what they could expect, and many politicians claimed it would never become a federation. Now, 40 years later things certainly have changed: The EU has turned into just that. It's about time countries get to vote whether they want to become a part of a federation or not. [editline]11th January 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Camundongo;39174978]The majority of our trade is with, surprise surprise, Europe. It's nearby, stable and wealthy, and contains a wide range of industries. The nearest Commonwealth country is Canada - over the Atlantic. It contains a lot of raw materials, but as our manufacturing base depletes, what are we actually going to do with them? The other Commonwealth countries are even further away, and the trading options are limited. Okay, India provides good trade links, but we're unlikely to step that up much further. Europe is a good deal for us. We can sell stuff like our pharmaceuticals and aerospace tech, and also importantly we can buy cheap food out of season. If we leave the EU, not only will our farmers lose money and a marketplace, but the price of food will increase again, putting an even bigger strain on families in Britain.[/QUOTE] A goodbye to the EU is not a goodbye to Europe, there's still plenty of ways to trade with all the countries in Europe. The US is not a member of the EU, neither is China, yet their products all over the place in the EU.

If this is the case, how come half the EU seems to hate the UK for some reason? Admittedly, 'half the EU' seems to amount to 'France when they're shouting', but I've never understood why we get so much hate. Is it our lack of learning foreign languages? Or is it just the Empire thing, which has been dead and gone for the last 70 years or so?

[QUOTE=Jamsponge;39177376]If this is the case, how come half the EU seems to hate the UK for some reason? Admittedly, 'half the EU' seems to amount to 'France when they're shouting', but I've never understood why we get so much hate. Is it our lack of learning foreign languages? Or is it just the Empire thing, which has been dead and gone for the last 70 years or so?[/QUOTE] Half of the EU hates Britain because Britain hates half of the EU. They see us as these condecending xenophobes and it's probably because of lack of languages and the empire. Then again the French are worse xenophobes than we are.

i vote we make eu a state and then we make india a city

[QUOTE=The fox;39169753]Trade stops from any European member, huge fines in their courts etc. Contrary to what you appear to believe, the military isn't the only, nor the most powerfull tool, that can be used to force a country to submit to the will of others.[/QUOTE]You're seriously suggesting the EU would unilaterally sanction the UK? hehe Trade would continue, you'd just be subject to tarriffs, nor would the EU start placing huge fines on the UK for some imagined illegal act. Feel free to explain what law the UK would be breaking by leaving the EU that would result in massive fines.

[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;39178589]You're seriously suggesting the EU would unilaterally sanction the UK? hehe Trade would continue, you'd just be subject to tarriffs, nor would the EU start placing huge fines on the UK for some imagined illegal act. Feel free to explain what law the UK would be breaking by leaving the EU that would result in massive fines.[/QUOTE] Do I really sit and need to explain every single thing that the EU can do, behind closed doors, publically and all other options that exists? Really? Because if you weren't aware, much of the politics are done behind closed doors, and nothing we will ever even see a glimpse of. And as Germany even sees it fit to "warn" the UK for potentionally following the will of it's people and potentionally leaving the UK, one should be able to read between the lines and figure out that there is pressure from politics in Brussel, most likely behind closed doors.

[QUOTE=The fox;39178695]Do I really sit and need to explain every single thing that the EU can do, behind closed doors, publically and all other options that exists? Really? Because if you weren't aware, much of the politics are done behind closed doors, and nothing we will ever even see a glimpse of. And as Germany even sees it fit to "warn" the UK for potentionally following the will of it's people and potentionally leaving the UK, one should be able to read between the lines and figure out that there is pressure from politics in Brussel, most likely behind closed doors.[/QUOTE]Sometimes I like to close my door, makes me feel mysterious like a super-spy, or like the head of an evil organisation. Then I just have a wank and play some video games.

[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;39178712]Sometimes I like to close my door, makes me feel mysterious like a super-spy, or like the head of an evil organisation. Then I just have a wank and play some video games.[/QUOTE] What does that have to do with anything? Unless you're gonna keep a serious discussion, why do you bother coming here and replying? Or do you think that no nations put pressure on other nations through private channels? Because that has happened, is happening and will always happen, and if you're so naive that you think otherwise, then it's about time for a reality check.

I live in Brussels. Do you want to come over here and have a guided tour at the European commission? Because those totally exist.

[QUOTE=deltasquid;39178865]I live in Brussels. Do you want to come over here and have a guided tour at the European commission? Because those totally exist.[/QUOTE] I'm going to Brussels in February to see the EU institutions! Even if I really don't support it, I am very excited.

[QUOTE=TehMentos;39178914]I'm going to Brussels in February to see the EU institutions! Even if I really don't support it, I am very excited.[/QUOTE] It's very fascinating. I have yet to meet someone working there who doesn't wholeheartedly believe in the European Dream, so to speak.

[QUOTE=The fox;39178695]Do I really sit and need to explain every single thing that the EU can do, behind closed doors, publically and all other options that exists? Really? Because if you weren't aware, much of the politics are done behind closed doors, and nothing we will ever even see a glimpse of. And as Germany even sees it fit to "warn" the UK for potentionally [B]following the will of it's people[/B] and potentionally leaving the UK, one should be able to read between the lines and figure out that there is pressure from politics in Brussel, most likely behind closed doors.[/QUOTE] But it wouldn't... It would be going against the will of quite a large portion of the people. Also I wish they would sit in Strasbourg more often, just so people like you can be (even more) wrong. Its very hard to catch the ~15 days a month where they waste all of Europes money by moving to another country, despite the fact [url=http://www.paneuropeannetworks.com/detail/government1/meps-to-continue-strasbourg-sitting.html]they do not want to and have voted against doing so.[/url] (see, even I don't think the EU is infallible)

[QUOTE=The fox;39178740]What does that have to do with anything? Unless you're gonna keep a serious discussion, why do you bother coming here and replying? Or do you think that no nations put pressure on other nations through private channels? Because that has happened, is happening and will always happen, and if you're so naive that you think otherwise, then it's about time for a reality check.[/QUOTE] Even then his drivel makes more sense than yours.

[QUOTE=deltasquid;39179029]It's very fascinating. I have yet to meet someone working there who doesn't wholeheartedly believe in the European Dream, so to speak.[/QUOTE] You would kind of hope that the people working there would believe in it. Gotta counteract all that negative feeling towards it. (Even if a lot of it seems to come from people on FP who don't live here)

[QUOTE=deltasquid;39179029]It's very fascinating. I have yet to meet someone working there who doesn't wholeheartedly believe in the European Dream, so to speak.[/QUOTE] I have made sure we're meeting someone from the EFD group as well.

It's pretty much a lose-lose all round, but there's some serious bullshit that we don't want to put up with and some members that should never have been allowed to join in the first place. This whole EU thing is becoming a bit of a joke; the past 2 years have proved that. Great for Germany as they're everyone's go-to trading partner in the EU. But the UK, where most of our exports are services not products? I'm starting to see less and less reasons for us to put up with this crap, honestly. Start getting tougher on those countries that aren't holding up their end of the bargain, and please France - we've spent a while setting up one of the best customs agencies in the world. Would you do something about all the illegal immigrants waiting to cross the channel in every 10th lorry. Hate to sound like a mail reader - I welcome actual, skilled immigrants but all the money we put into keeping our borders safe and France doesn't deport anyone we catch...

[QUOTE=Proffrink;39179146] Would you do something about all the illegal immigrants waiting to cross the channel in every 10th lorry. Hate to sound like a mail reader - I welcome actual, skilled immigrants but all the money we put into keeping our borders safe and France doesn't deport anyone we catch...[/QUOTE] I assume its way too much hassle for them, and I don't think they actually have to do anything about it. If we were part of the Schengen agreement they would have to be deported back to their point of entry (normally the Turkish border) but as we aren't I think the French are allowed to just send them on their way and laugh when they jump on the next lorry.

[QUOTE=Jsm;39179046]But it wouldn't... It would be going against the will of quite a large portion of the people. [/QUOTE] They have done this before, for example [url]http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/iprenforcement/directive/index_en.htm[/url] And have tried, [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement[/url]

[QUOTE=The fox;39179473]They have done this before, for example [url]http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/iprenforcement/directive/index_en.htm[/url][/QUOTE] I am talking about the British government deciding the UK should leave the EU.

[QUOTE=Jsm;39179494]I am talking about the British government deciding the UK should leave the EU.[/QUOTE] The one you quoted, I said that Germany warned the UK for the potential of a referendum on membership. Thusly the EU is trying to make the UK ignore the will of the people for a referendum; And as it currently stands, if there is one held, it will be to leave the EU. Even so, the local government not following what the people want is no news, either, unfortunately.

[QUOTE=The fox;39179505]The one you quoted, I said that Germany warned the UK for the potential of a referendum on membership. Thusly the EU is trying to make the UK ignore the will of the people for a referendum; And as it currently stands, if there is one held, it will be to leave the EU. Even so, the local government not following what the people want is no news, either, unfortunately.[/QUOTE] I bold'ed the bit I was replying to, should have cut out the rest really. But yeah I see what you mean, you [I]could[/I] look at Germany's warning like that. In the same way that you could look at the US's begging of the UK to stay in as a thinly veiled attempt at controlling the EU through a puppet. Also I have to agree, governments do ignore what people want on an alarming scale. Goes for all levels of government really.