• Germany is set to become the first country in Europe to introduce a third, "indeterminate" gender de
    160 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Shadaez;41866646]so why do we put that they're male or female if they aren't thinking about it?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Venezuelan;41866642] exactly so why is it on a birth certificate[/QUOTE] because it's something everyone else who interacts with the kid needs to know to the baby it doesn't matter because they are a baby to the people that have to call the baby things, it's kind of important
[QUOTE=Doomish;41866687]because it's something everyone else who interacts with the kid needs to know to the baby it doesn't matter because they are a baby to the people that have to call the baby things, it's kind of important[/QUOTE] bro nobody's going to call it "it" because the parents put "?" on its birth certificate they're going to go by apparent physical sex until it's aware enough to identify otherwise
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;41866676]Saying "wah semantic argument" is really fallacious and I'm tired of hearing it. Using the right words is kind of important for proper communication. If it is about sex, it should say sex. That's all there is to it.[/QUOTE] English birth certificates say sex, not gender. Same for French ones. "Geschlecht" that's used on german birth certificates means both gender and sex.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41866704] "Geschlecht" that's used on german birth certificates means both gender and sex.[/QUOTE] Ah. Sounds like they need a new word then? But I suppose if we can assume it's the equivalent of sex then fair enough. It was merely the translation of the article that made me think otherwise.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41866384]while that is possibly true (source? honestly i have never heard of that before), what's the point in referring to them as female when they're about to develop a definite sex very soon? just human is good.[/QUOTE] Um... my 7th grade sex ed class? Did you not learn that or something? It's common knowledge...
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;41866702]bro nobody's going to call it "it" because the parents put "?" on its birth certificate they're going to go by apparent physical sex until it's aware enough to identify otherwise[/QUOTE] did u read the article the reason for putting indeterminate gender is in the case of people born with both sets of genitalia
[QUOTE=Doomish;41866732]did u read the article the reason for putting indeterminate gender is in the case of people born with both sets of genitalia[/QUOTE] right but the article should in fact say sex gender is not necessarily related to genatalia but from what Ganerumo says it's just a meaning lost in translation
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;41866719]Ah. Sounds like they need a new word then? But I suppose if we can assume it's the equivalent of sex then fair enough. It was merely the translation of the article that made me think otherwise.[/QUOTE] No they don't, if one word means two things there isn't really any need to create a new word just to avoid confusion that does not exist in the first place because the language is built around it. It means gender when used socially, sex when used for biology, and gender certificates refer to the biological sex of the individual, obviously, so there is no real confusion. If translation is needed, then it's the translator's job to know what context is the word used in and what is the best term to use between gender and sex in the translated text. Whoever translated the article in the OP did not do a goob job for that matter. I also noticed there is no source in the OP except a "spiegel.de" so I'll assume the article was originally written in another language than englis and was then translated by the OP.
[QUOTE=Doomish;41866687]because it's something everyone else who interacts with the kid needs to know to the baby it doesn't matter because they are a baby to the people that have to call the baby things, it's kind of important[/QUOTE] thats fine but it doesn't need to be on documentation like that like it's a determined thing, I don't see any better way than to assume penis = going to be a boy but people should be more open and knowledgeable that their little penis-haver might be a girl.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41866463]i mean, when someone is talking about how they're pregnant, they never refer to it as a girl. just 'i'm having a baby'. in scientific terms, you're probably right. but i have heard literally nobody say that. don't take what i'm saying as offense either, legitimately curious.[/QUOTE] Please tell me you just haven't reached the grade where you have a sex ed class and you're really not this blind to basic biology.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41866497]that's pretty cool actually, didn't know that. i'm a little less versed in sex compared to gender topics, so no wonder. thanks for the info[/QUOTE] To further explore the topic for the sake of the uninformed, in my [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1299632&p=41865902&viewfull=1#post41865902]previous post[/url] I was lighting hinting at this. The X chromosome typically contains the genetic information you need to have traits both male and female. The Y 'activates' parts of the X, so to say. Depending on differences between these Xs and Ys compared to typical ones, and gene expression, along with the varied effects and effectiveness of the Y->X activity, the human race becomes very diverse in gender and sex spectrum. Biology is messy.
[QUOTE=FingerSpazem;41866728]Um... my 7th grade sex ed class? Did you not learn that or something? It's common knowledge...[/QUOTE] i was never taught science. sorry for being a little less versed in biology than you are. it looks like you're attacking me for knowing a little less than you. i'm not really being ignorant about it or anything
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41866747] I also noticed there is no source in the OP except a "spiegel.de" so I'll assume the article was originally written in another language than englis and was then translated by the OP.[/QUOTE] It's the official English translation on the website [url]http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/third-gender-option-to-become-available-on-german-birth-certificates-a-916940.html[/url]
[QUOTE=FingerSpazem;41866755]Please tell me you just haven't reached the grade where you have a sex ed class and you're really not this blind to basic biology.[/QUOTE] way to be a fucking asshole, i'm not in school anymore.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;41866754]thats fine but it doesn't need to be on documentation like that like it's a determined thing, I don't see any better way than to assume penis = going to be a boy but people should be more open and knowledgeable that their little penis-haver might be a girl.[/QUOTE] Why do you have to overthink things so much. The birth certificate refers to the sex of the child at birth. That's it. Everything else is irrelevant.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41866776]i was never taught science. sorry for being a little less versed in biology than you are. it looks like you're attacking me for knowing a little less than you. i'm not really being ignorant about it or anything[/QUOTE] don't worry, literally no one does what he's saying
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;41866778]It's the official English translation on the website [url]http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/third-gender-option-to-become-available-on-german-birth-certificates-a-916940.html[/url][/QUOTE] Then the translator on their website did a terrible job.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;41866783]don't worry, literally no one does what he's saying[/QUOTE] Does what? Teach sex ed in 7th grade? Sorry but Washington State does.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41866782]Why do you have to overthink things so much. The birth certificate refers to the sex of the child at birth. That's it. Everything else is irrelevant.[/QUOTE] It doesn't bother me, but it bothers trans* individuals and it's important to listen to other peoples opinions on things that don't really affect you. It wouldn't hurt you if your birth certificate said you had a penis rather than saying you were a male, it would make trans* people feel better, though.
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[QUOTE=Shadaez;41866754]thats fine but it doesn't need to be on documentation like that like it's a determined thing, I don't see any better way than to assume penis = going to be a boy but people should be more open and knowledgeable that their little penis-haver might be a girl.[/QUOTE] nobody, literally nobody is going to go "i feel like i'm not comfortable in my body but my birth certificate says i was born a female so i guess that's what i am obligated to be" it's there for medical documentation, not to permanently define people's sex or gender
[QUOTE=FingerSpazem;41866800]I'm pretty sure we got the basics thrown down in 6th grade aswell[/QUOTE] i'm not american sorry for not being the priveleged little white boy that got perfect education, mate. i went to a catholic school, we were never taught science outside of physics.
[QUOTE=FingerSpazem;41866796]Does what? Teach sex ed in 7th grade? Sorry but Washington State does.[/QUOTE] no one refers to babies as female before their genitalia has been determined
[QUOTE=Shadaez;41866808]no one refers to babies as female before their genitalia has been determined[/QUOTE] Of course, I never said anyone does that. That'd be dumb
[QUOTE=FingerSpazem;41866812]Of course, I never said anyone does that. That'd be dumb[/QUOTE] that's the point you were arguing against though :v: guess you just skimmed
[QUOTE=FingerSpazem;41866812]Of course, I never said anyone does that. That'd be dumb[/QUOTE] what did i say that made you tick? i haven't been verbally attacking anyone because i don't know of this one thing, but you're ranting at me as if it's literally a violation of human rights to not know something i wasn't given the opportunity to learn. [editline]17th August 2013[/editline] i mean, i literally said it right there. 'you're probably right, it's the scientific term'. but you just proved me right in agreeing with the statement that nobody refers to children with no known sex as female
[QUOTE=Shadaez;41866798]It doesn't bother me, but it bothers trans* individuals and it's important to listen to other peoples opinions on things that don't really affect you. It wouldn't hurt you if your birth certificate said you had a penis rather than saying you were a male, it would make trans* people feel better, though.[/QUOTE] It's really going to get pretty stupid if we have to replace "sex : female/male" by "genitalia : penis/vagina".
[QUOTE=FingerSpazem;41866796]Does what? Teach sex ed in 7th grade? Sorry but Washington State does.[/QUOTE] you're not even reading the posts you're replying to jesus. [editline]17th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Ganerumo;41866834]It's really going to get pretty stupid if we have to replace "sex : female/male" by "genitalia : penis/vagina".[/QUOTE] we shouldn't have to do that where we don't need to. people are people, and equally as capable as each other in most respects. obviously it has an important use in things like reports and medical science, but society is too hinged on seperating people by their sex and gender.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;41865694]are you referring to when a doctor cut the dick off someone on accident so they decided to raise a girl?[/QUOTE] I think that's the one
[QUOTE=Zeke129;41865484]It has been done (rather unethically) as a psychological experiment. It didn't work, the child grew up knowing their gender identity was totally wrong. Unethical, but kind of shits all over the argument that we'll see a widespread problem with parents switching their child's genders, and also really goes to show that even children are perfectly capable of knowing their preferred gender identity[/QUOTE] I remember this. The doctor the parents seeked for advice was such an asshole about it. He saw the case as a perfect occasion to prove his theory that gender was entirely based on social pressure and not biological needs and he pushed the parents to believe it too and raise the kid as a girl, not telling them that it could potentially kill the kid because of how depressed he may end up being. The first doctor wasn't much of a pro either because he managed to cut the baby's entire dick off with an electric needle when trying to circumcise him.
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