Germany is set to become the first country in Europe to introduce a third, "indeterminate" gender de
160 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41866894]I remember this. The doctor the parents seeked for advice was such an asshole about it. He saw the case as a perfect occasion to prove his theory that gender was entirely based on social pressure and not biological needs and he pushed the parents to believe it too and raise the kid as a girl, not telling them that it could potentially kill the kid because of how depressed he may end up being.
The first doctor wasn't much of a pro either because he managed to cut the baby's entire dick off with an electric needle when trying to circumcise him.[/QUOTE]
this argument has much less to do with the sex argument but more gender as a biological construct.
gender is still a field we as humans do not know a whole lot about, even to say as far as we don't know if gender is anything more than a societal construct rather than being naturally inflicted. It's a bit of a tough topic, the mind is a complex thing.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41866838]we shouldn't have to do that where we don't need to. people are people, and equally as capable as each other in most respects. obviously it has an important use in things like reports and medical science, but society is too hinged on seperating people by their sex and gender.[/QUOTE]
It's a matter of easy recognition. Same reason we tend to refer to people by the color of their skin or their height or weight or anything else. Telling whether someone's a woman or a man takes much shorter than scanning them for every possible body/facial feature you can find to describe them which is why most of the time describing someone ends up sounding like "it's a tall black dude" or "it's some fat asian chick".
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41866903]this argument has much less to do with the sex argument but more gender as a biological construct.
gender is still a field we as humans do not know a whole lot about, even to say as far as we don't know if gender is anything more than a societal construct rather than being naturally inflicted.[/QUOTE]
Well, no. The study the guy did clearly showed that gender is directly linked to sex and to how the brain works. Gender is NOT a societal construct. Gender roles are another thing entirely, but actual gender is not made up by society. Case and point people would not be clinically depressed and on the verge of suicide if gender was just social and not biological.
to be fair it's not exactly the best study ever done
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41866906]It's a matter of easy recognition. Same reason we tend to refer to people by the color of their skin or their height or weight or anything else. Telling whether someone's a woman or a man takes much shorter than scanning them for every possible body/facial feature you can find to describe them which is why most of the time describing someone ends up sounding like "it's a tall black dude" or "it's some fat asian chick".[/QUOTE]
while that's true, i think it does more harm than good at this point
i mean, sure. refer to someone as their sex/gender all you want. but i shouldn't have to put down whether or not i have a penis or not on a form for buying a car or whatever
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41866916]while that's true, i think it does more harm than good at this point[/QUOTE]
No, not really. Because a handful of people (transgender aren't exactly the most numerous people on earth right now) refer to themselves as the opposite gender does not mean we should ban the entire concept of gender. It's utopic and insanely inefficient.
[editline]17th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Shadaez;41866910]to be fair it's not exactly the best study ever done[/QUOTE]
It did make a rather clear point though. Gender identity is linked to some deeper rooted biological mechanics and isn't just social.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41866921]No, not really. Because a handful of people (transgender aren't exactly the most numerous people on earth right now) refer to themselves as the opposite gender does not mean we should ban the entire concept of gender. It's utopic and insanely inefficient.[/QUOTE]
taking my post out of context, i'm talking about seperation with gender as a means. not as getting rid of gender
i still think the gender binary does much more harm than good (and is entirely pointless) though. but you're right in saying it would be very difficult to get rid of it, it's embedded right in the middle of society
gender roles being enforced is super fucked up, though. it's seem as a norm to not let someone do something because of the other things they do that just happen to fit in to 'feminine' or 'masculine'
[editline]17th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41866921]
It did make a rather clear point though. Gender identity is linked to some deeper rooted biological mechanics and isn't just social.[/QUOTE]
this is a single report, i wouldn't go about saying that just yet.
Not to mention that if you stop referring to people as their gender it would make identifying them one hell of a lot harder. The main reason you are asked to say if you are a man or a woman on most forms is that people need to know what to expect when they see you.
And sometimes a picture on an ID won't do because some people look effeminate and others look manly. So, yeah, it's kind of a big deal.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41866954]Not to mention that if you stop referring to people as their gender it would make identifying them one hell of a lot harder. The main reason you are asked to say if you are a man or a woman on most forms is that people need to know what to expect when they see you.
And sometimes a picture on an ID won't do because some people look effeminate and others look manly. So, yeah, it's kind of a big deal.[/QUOTE]
that has nothing to do with gender
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41866931]this is a single report, i wouldn't go about saying that just yet.[/QUOTE]
There has been tons of reports on the subject.
Also all the trans people who have been diagnosed with clinical depression and the efficiency of hormone treatment kinda shows that there's more to transgenderism than just social pressure.
you wouldn't know what gender to refer to me as without asking me. it has nothing to do with physical appearance
[editline]17th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41866968]There has been tons of reports on the subject.
Also all the trans people who have been diagnosed with clinical depression and the efficiency of hormone treatment kinda shows that there's more to transgenderism than just social pressure.[/QUOTE]
you're underestimating social pressure. a lot.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41866963]that has nothing to do with gender[/QUOTE]
... What the hell is your point then
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41866974]... What the hell is your point then[/QUOTE]
are you really reading my posts? i think gender is nothing more than a societal construct. nothing to do with physical appearances. hormones brought around by a specific sex might effect how you act or look making you seem 'feminine or masculine' to society aka fitting in to x or y gender, but gender and gender identity still has nothing to do with physical appearance at their core.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41866969]you wouldn't know what gender to refer to me as without asking me. it has nothing to do with physical appearance[/quote]
If you have breasts and look like a woman then a wild guess would tell you're a woman, except if you're part of that one very small percentage of the population that refers to itself as the opposite gender in which case well shit I'm outta luck, big deal, takes literally half a second to fix it.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41866969]
you're underestimating social pressure[/QUOTE]
Social pressure plays a certain role in how long one can potentially repress their gender issues but it's not the actual cause for gender identity issues. The actual cause in a nutshell that the brain is expecting certain hormones that never show up because the body is creating opposite hormones and it prevents happiness which triggers depression. This is why hormonal treatment is actually working.
If someone born a man refers to themselves as a woman it's because they have a pair of balls that produces testosterone while the rest of the body is expecting estrogen. If gender was only a social construct then this wouldn't even happen at all and people wouldn't even feel the need to refer to a gender in the first place or would never feel physically ill for not being of the right gender.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41866931]taking my post out of context, i'm talking about seperation with gender as a means. not as getting rid of gender
i still think the gender binary does much more harm than good (and is entirely pointless) though. but you're right in saying it would be very difficult to get rid of it, it's embedded right in the middle of society
[editline]17th August 2013[/editline]
this is a single report, i wouldn't go about saying that just yet.[/QUOTE]
but gender isn't strictly societal its also based partly in biology, so one cannot just simply eliminate it from society
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41866999]If you have breasts and look like a woman then a wild guess would tell you're a woman, except if you're part of that one very small percentage of the population that refers to itself as the opposite gender in which case well shit I'm outta luck, big deal, takes literally half a second to fix it.
Social pressure plays a certain role in how long one can potentially repress their gender issues but it's not the actual cause for gender identity issues. The actual cause in a nutshell that the brain is expecting certain hormones that never show up because the body is creating opposite hormones and it prevents happiness which triggers depression. This is why hormonal treatment is actually working.[/QUOTE]
you know the reason you would assume that i would be a woman in that case? because people that are by sex female are presumed to be by gender female. not because of some natural instinct, you're just used to that.
[editline]17th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sableye;41867007]but gender isn't strictly societal its also based partly in biology, so one cannot just simply eliminate it from society[/QUOTE]
i'm talking about social roles and identity here, not gender as in sex
i know a world without gender roles or strict identities might seem 'utopian' in a way, but that's mostly because we as a modern culture have never experienced a world where it isn't like it is now
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;41866821]that's the point you were arguing against though :v:
guess you just skimmed[/QUOTE]
No, I wasn't arguing anything. I was just being a massive asshole to someone undeserving of it because they didn't have the same school curriculum I did. jeez
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41867010]you know the reason you would assume that i would be a woman in that case? because people that are by sex female are presumed to be by gender female. not because of some natural instinct, you're just used to that.[/QUOTE]
Erm no that's because the presence of a uterus that can host an egg of some sort is what tends to define a female member of a certain species in the animal world apart from a few specific cases and the presence of a penis and testicles able to produce the sperm needed to impregnate these eggs is what tends to define a male member of a certain species in the animal world. This is what we are referring to when we say male or female and in the case of humanity man or woman, on a very basic train of logic. Then there's the gender identity factor which is another thing entirely.
It's really not rocket science. Pretty much every single animal in the animal realm have a male/female counterpart, so do human beings. A difference is made between both because wow what do you know there IS A DIFFERENCE between both and it's a rather easy to spot one so we use it on a regular basis as a way of identification.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41867010] i'm talking about social roles and identity here, not gender as in sex[/QUOTE]
...Then you're talking about gender roles which is another issue entirely.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41867010]you know the reason you would assume that i would be a woman in that case? because people that are by sex female are presumed to be by gender female. not because of some natural instinct, you're just used to that.[/QUOTE]
this isn't mass-debate forum btw, but you are correct, just spitballing numbers but if you were to pull 10 people off the street and get straight answers out of them 9 out of 10 of them would probably answer that there psychological gender is their biological gender. its just the norm
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41867028]Erm no that's because the presence of a uterus that can host an egg of some sort is what tends to define a female member of a certain species in the animal world apart from a few specific cases and the presence of a penis and testicles able to produce the sperm needed to impregnate these eggs is what tends to define a male member of a certain species in the animal world.
It's really not rocket science. Pretty much every single animal in the animal realm have a male/female counterpart, so do human beings. A difference is made between both because wow what do you know there IS A DIFFERENCE between both and it's a rather easy to spot one so we use it on a regular basis as a way of identification.[/QUOTE]
you would determine that my sex is female because of those physical features, not my gender.
[editline]17th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sableye;41867034]this isn't mass-debate forum btw, but you are correct, just spitballing numbers but if you were to pull 10 people off the street and get straight answers out of them 9 out of 10 of them would probably answer that there psychological gender is their biological gender. its just the norm[/QUOTE]
why the quip about mass debate? i don't see how that's relevant at all
if i'm making any inaccuracies, i want you to refute them and point them out. no need to be narrow about it
and yes, i understand that's the norm. i never went out of my way to say otherwise
kinda stupid that germany would even do something like this though, i mean its kinda like how parents don't circumcise their kid and then later in life they have to get it done for what-have-you and its a lot more difficult then, while a foreskin really doesn't do much but get gross which is why like most major religions have the practice in the first place. there are just some things that [B]should[/B] be decided by the parents for their children and sorted out later if something did need adjusting.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41867039]you would determine that my sex is female because of those physical features, not my gender.[/quote]
Okay you need to sort your shit out about what sex and gender is respectively because you keep tossing around both words and mixing both up and it's really confusing.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41867028]
...Then you're talking about gender roles which is another issue entirely.[/QUOTE]
gender as a societal construct. not just 'gender roles'. it actually is the issue i am trying to talk about, you were the one that jumped at me, not vice versa
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41867039]you would determine that my sex is female because of those physical features, not my gender.
[editline]17th August 2013[/editline]
why the quip about mass debate? i don't see how that's relevant at all
if i'm making any inaccuracies, i want you to refute them and point them out. no need to be narrow about it
and yes, i understand that's the norm. i never went out of my way to say otherwise[/QUOTE]
you are just throwing the thread way off-topic on a rant about the difference between biological gender and societal gender-biases, and psychological gender. there is a topic for this already elsewhere
[QUOTE=Sableye;41867064]kinda stupid that germany would even do something like this though, i mean its kinda like how parents don't circumcise their kid and then later in life they have to get it done for what-have-you and its a lot more difficult then, while a foreskin really doesn't do much but get gross which is why like most major religions have the practice in the first place. there are just some things that [B]should[/B] be decided by the parents for their children and sorted out later if something did need adjusting.[/QUOTE]
Well yeah this is why we have legal name and gender changes in the first place.
Having your sex indicated on your birth certificate does not stop you at all from changing it later on.
[QUOTE=Sableye;41867064]kinda stupid that germany would even do something like this though, i mean its kinda like how parents don't circumcise their kid and then later in life they have to get it done for what-have-you and its a lot more difficult then, while a foreskin really doesn't do much but get gross which is why like most major religions have the practice in the first place. there are just some things that [B]should[/B] be decided by the parents for their children and sorted out later if something did need adjusting.[/QUOTE]
uh, no. not even close. i don't want to bring up circumcision here, though.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41867067]gender as a societal construct. not just 'gender roles'. it actually is the issue i am trying to talk about, you were the one that jumped at me, not vice versa[/QUOTE]
But then you toss around both the words sex and gender, mixing them up entirely and none of what you're saying makes any sense because you keep confusing yourself.
Your point is that gender is entirely a social construct. My point is that it's not because it's been proven that gender identity is directly influenced by how your brain functions and its relation with your body and the hormones it creates. That's it.
[QUOTE=Sableye;41867068]you are just throwing the thread way off-topic on a rant about the difference between biological gender and societal gender-biases, and psychological gender. there is a topic for this already elsewhere[/QUOTE]
how am i going off topic? the article is talking about gender/gender identity issues related to intersex people, i am too.
[editline]17th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41867079]But then you toss around both the words sex and gender, mixing them up entirely and none of what you're saying makes any sense because you keep confusing yourself.
Your point is that gender is entirely a social construct. My point is that it's not because it's been proven that gender identity is directly influenced by how your brain functions and its relation with your body and the hormones it creates. That's it.[/QUOTE]
would you mind pointing these 'mixing up' instances out for me? why are you treating my side of the debate like an attack, i take these opportunities as learning ones. i want you to tell me where I was wrong, otherwise you're just pointlessly refuting nothing.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41867090] would you mind pointing these 'mixing up' instances out for me? why are you treating my side of the debate like an attack, i take these opportunities as learning ones. i want you to tell me where I was wrong, otherwise you're just pointlessly refuting nothing.[/QUOTE]
Just read your messages a few times over, you'll see that you tend to just confuse sex and gender all the time.
As for the "learning experience" I just explained to you where and how you were wrong but you keep ignoring it.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41867102]Just read your messages a few times over, you'll see that you tend to just confuse sex and gender all the time.
As for the "learning experience" I just explained to you where and how you were wrong but you keep ignoring it.[/QUOTE]
no actually, i don't.
you're not telling me where i'm getting mixed up
you said that my point is about society and yours is about biology, that's exactly what it is, you're correct. i'm trying to argue my side of a debate against yours, but you are constantly saying i'm just wrong and getting mixed up?
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41867106]no actually, i don't.[/QUOTE]
You need to learn to read then.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41867039]you would determine that my sex is female because of those physical features, not my gender.[/QUOTE]
Have an instance of that. At one point you said that I would determine your gender based on your sex, then you said I would determine your sex based on your physical features. That makes no sense.
You need to make yourself way clearer and if you're here to "learn" you have to understand what exactly you're talking about before going on tossing grand theories about how society works.
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