Teenage Girl Shot And Killed In Texas Because Of Stand Your Ground Law - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Lankist;36718482]Oooooh no they don't. Ethics are subjective. Law is objective. I am prepared to argue about this.[/QUOTE] No, morals are subjective, ethics are objective.

[QUOTE=DamagePoint;36718474]Killing [i]is[/i] killing, and I agree that it's never a good thing. But sometimes it's better than the alternative. And no, it doesn't make you a good person. Life is full of though choices, though.[/QUOTE] You're free to make a tough choice. Doesn't make you right.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36718491]You're free to make a tough choice. Doesn't make you right.[/QUOTE] True, it doesn't make you right, but it doesn't make you wrong either.

[QUOTE=Loriborn;36718489]Um, you're the one repeating themselves. Still haven't given us a logical reason why killing a human is bad under every circumstance just because you said some poetic shit about how we are the product of evolution or something.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, you want me to explain why life is valuable without being poetic?

[QUOTE=Lankist;36718498]I'm sorry, you want me to explain why life is valuable without being poetic?[/QUOTE] In a purely realistic, based in fact, and circumstances of the situation, yes. Why is the life of a mugger or rapist, out of the billions we have of incredibly similar people, so important that accidentally killing him to protect your family is wrong? Are you going to tell me that rapist was going to cure cancer after murdering your family?

[QUOTE=Swilly;36718490]No, morals are subjective, ethics are objective.[/QUOTE] Ethics are dictated by a social contract between individuals. Law is determined by rigorous testing, historical analysis and theoretical application. They are not the same. They are distinct. Law sometimes influences ethics, but any ethical stipulation which matches law is mere coincidence.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36718250]take it upon myself to play fucking hero and steal something precious and rare from this world for the sake of my own wellbeing.[/QUOTE] Do you [i]really[/i] think that whoever it is that was attacking you or your family will be the one to go on and live a life of philanthropy and love? Of course not, because if they had ever considered doing such a thing, they wouldn't have tried to break the law. You act like every person, including criminals, are some special bud of creativity waiting to bloom into a beautiful tulip of caring and understanding, who will love every creature on this Earth. You fail to understand that if that was the case, then crime would be a thing of the past.

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[QUOTE=Loriborn;36718518]In a purely realistic, based in fact, and circumstances of the situation, yes. [/QUOTE] uhh how is "we are not going to heaven. We are 4 billion years of evolutionary success. Death is a permanent loss, and the odds of our even being here right now are astronomical in scope" not factually realistic? you do realize that poetry and reality are not mutually exclusive. If you've got a better reality I would love to hear it.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36718498]I'm sorry, you want me to explain why life is valuable without being poetic?[/QUOTE] You could just say "human life is valuable because we are highly evolved and everyone has a chance of being incredibly talented, so death is a huge loss".

[QUOTE=Lankist;36718519]Ethics are dictated by a social contract between individuals. Law is determined by rigorous testing, historical analysis and theoretical application. They are not the same. They are distinct. Law sometimes influences ethics, but any ethical stipulation which matches law is mere coincidence.[/QUOTE] So you're saying, that Ethics, which is the foundation of law, is merely a subjective construct between a society that agree on said ethics. Therefore, making them morals.

[QUOTE=_jesterk;36718531]You could just say "human life is valuable because we are highly evolved and everyone has a chance of being incredibly talented, so death is a huge loss".[/QUOTE] That is what I said, in more words and stipulations. [editline]11th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Swilly;36718532]So you're saying, that Ethics, which is the foundation of law, is merely a subjective construct between a society that agree on said ethics. Therefore, making them morals.[/QUOTE] Ethics are not the foundation of law. Maybe fucking Hammurabi bullshit, but not 21st century law. Just because something is unethical doesn't make it illegal. Lying is not illegal. Adultery is not illegal. But are they not unethical?

[QUOTE=Lankist;36718464]Your rebuttal was a blanket denial. i.e. not a rebuttal. You didn't read what I said, you just dismissed it off-hand. Either you're a sociopath who only values the human lives that are convenient for you to value, or you realize you're not winning the high ground here and you're looking for any excuse to keep repeating yourself. [editline]11th July 2012[/editline] Law doesn't dictate ethics. Bletotum asked me a philosophical question, I gave him a philosophical answer. He's the one who engaged this red herring. If you'd like to return to the part where I quoted statistics which indicate people who defend themselves in robberies are MORE likely to be injured, feel free.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Bletotum;36718430] Explain why taking a life is inherently bad, or do not suggest it.[/QUOTE] It is not a red herring to ask you to explain the core of your argument. Ironically, it is you who is looking for an excuse to repeat yourself. I did not give you a blanket denial. You are giving a blanket denial of there being any possible situation in which killing someone is the right thing to do. I said that you made an unreasonable claim that killing a person is wrong because the person is alive, and that life is rare. The person hypothetically trying to kill you, is as just stated, [i]trying to kill you[/i]. The goal of this person is to harm you, a presumably innocent person in that you did not start the confrontation or escalate it. In this scenario, my goal would be to keep myself alive, and if necessary, end the life of (oh i'm sorry, i mean kill) my attacker. Intent is what is important. It is not reasonable to only consider the outcome. You also claimed that life is ALWAYS bad to end because the attacker might do something greater than you will. This is stupid to use as an argument regarding the morality of self defense. It is stupid because it is reasonable to assume that you, someone trying to or hoping to improve the world during your life, are a more positive force than someone who kills innocents without a rational cause. What makes this bad?

We've established that you're ideologies are pretty flawed if you can consider life precious, but at the same time be able to look at the world so black and white that you can label all people as "good" or "bad" based on a single action.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36718498]I'm sorry, you want me to explain why life is valuable without being poetic?[/QUOTE] The thing is that you basically treat all human life as equal in value, and I think that's not necessarily true. I think that a violent assailant's life might just be worth less than their victim's. Obviously nobody can say for sure that the assailant wouldn't go on to found a charity and cure cancer, but from the little anybody can know of them from their immediate actions, they sure don't seem like a person worth dying for.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36718536]That is what I said, in more words and stipulations. [editline]11th July 2012[/editline] Ethics are not the foundation of law. Maybe fucking Hammurabi bullshit, but not 21st century law.[/QUOTE] 21st century law is FILLED with laws dating back to Hammurabi and from the Roman-Greeko/Biblic influences, at least with Western law it is.

[QUOTE=Bletotum;36718547]It is not a red herring to ask you to explain the core of your argument. [/QUOTE] I was talking about Castle Doctrine and you asked me what the meaning of life is. Pretty giant red fucking herring.

[QUOTE=Gundevil;36718322]Someone breaks into my home, especially with that many people I would do the same thing. That girl wasn't killed by any laws but the ones she was breaking and hey own choices. Of all fucking states, you had to rob someone in texas, where their neighbor can legally kill you for robbing. Good for the homeowner, he did nothing wrong.[/QUOTE] The homeowner didn't do anything mate, the girls friend shot her in the back of the head presumably while shooting at the home owner.

[QUOTE=Swilly;36718552]21st century law is FILLED with laws dating back to Hammurabi and from the Roman-Greeko/Biblic influences, at least with Western law it is.[/QUOTE] which are coincidental. There are more biblical and hammurabi laws which have been abandoned than have been kept. just because the bible said it isn't cool to kill doesn't mean that's why we have laws against it, hombre.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36718527]uhh how is "we are not going to heaven. We are 4 billion years of evolutionary success. Death is a permanent loss, and the odds of our even being here right now are astronomical in scope" not factually realistic? you do realize that poetry and reality are not mutually exclusive. If you've got a better reality I would love to hear it.[/QUOTE] We are 4 billion years of evolutionary success and there are 8 billion of us on the planet. If one has to die so others may live, big fucking deal. You know what are also a couple billion years of evolutionary success? Chickens. Better not kill/eat them or you're evil!

[QUOTE=Loriborn;36718561]We are 4 billion years of evolutionary success and there are 8 billion of us on the planet. If one has to die so others may live, big fucking deal. You know what are also a couple billion years of evolutionary success? Chickens. Better not kill/eat them or you're evil![/QUOTE] Hey look who didn't read the whole post. congratulations, our thing is done. you really got me there human life is completely equivalent to land fowl you win.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36718554]I was talking about Castle Doctrine and you asked me what the meaning of life is. Pretty giant red fucking herring.[/QUOTE] I asked, and not originally directed at you, what makes life intrinsically valuable so that it is always bad to kill someone. You replied. Infact, you replied rather hatefully that I was a terrible person, with no explanation. Since this point I've pressed you to prove this point.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36718559]which are coincidental. There are more biblical and hammurabi laws which have been abandoned than have been kept. just because the bible said it isn't cool to kill doesn't mean that's why we have laws against it, hombre.[/QUOTE] Okay fine, [B]law[/B] dictates that under certain circumstances the unfortunate loss of life can be deemed acceptable if your own is in peril.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36718571]Hey look who didn't read the whole post. congratulations, our thing is done.[/QUOTE] Oh no I read it, but the fact is, we [b]are[/b] here, and not killing people isn't some great poetic tribute to our rare occurrence. How do we honor the fact that our possibility of existing is slim by not protecting ourselves?

[QUOTE=Lankist;36718571]Hey look who didn't read the whole post. congratulations, our thing is done. you really got me there [B]human life is completely equivalent to land fowl[/B] you win.[/QUOTE] Explain to me why it isn't. Because we're smarter? Because we're more successful as a species?

[QUOTE=Swilly;36718580]Okay fine, [B]law[/B] dictates that under certain circumstances the unfortunate loss of life can be deemed acceptable if your own is in peril.[/QUOTE] Yes. Castle variations of which are unacceptably loose.

To honor the great random counter that is our chance at existing as a species, we must never kill eachother! If we do, we may upset the great poetry that is the low chance of us existing. I don't understand how just because our species chance at existing somehow makes us more special than any other species, or, for some reason, means our death is bad. Humans aren't some great example of universal perfection, we don't need to be preserved forever.

[QUOTE=HolyCrusade;36718589]Explain to me why it isn't. Because we're smarter? Because we're more successful as a species?[/QUOTE] We are the only known meta-cognizant species in the entire universe capable of appreciating and valuing life. What does it say about us if we don't?

[QUOTE=Lankist;36718330]That is exactly what I'm implying. I'm not even implying it. I'm saying it directly: Anyone who takes a life is a bad person.[/QUOTE] I've never killed anyone, but you may as well label me the worst fucking person on the planet. Why? Because I wish my great-grandmother had pulled the trigger on that fucking rapist. I wish his brains were staining her fucking floor. People. Will. Do. Evil. And you have no way of knowing when, why, or how. It is better to abolish, indeed to [b]kill[/b] the initial aggressor than to allow yourself to become a statistic. A victim at the hands of another person who lacked the spine to respect your property and honor the sanctity of your home. If defending myself, my family, and my property from an initial aggressor makes me a bad person, then I will wear your arbitrary label with pride, that I may prevent some greater evil.

[QUOTE=Mon;36716162]obviously looking pretty makes you totally innocent yo[/QUOTE] I actually wouldn't be surprised if her beauty made her less of a suspect.