Colorado man ordered to remove American flag from apartment balcony because it's "clutter" - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Paramud;50619390]Excuse me but it says right here in the quote you posted They are completely within their rights to disallow any political displays on their building, any national flag being exactly that.[/QUOTE] You would be hard pressed to find a judge to rule that this flag would be considered "garbage". If a term in a contract is not defined, it is given it's usual, ordinary, and popular meaning, which would be the same as trash, refuse, or waste. His American flag does not fall under the scope of "garbage", and is protected.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50619502]I'd even go as far as to say most people who proudly fly/display our flag do so more out of pride in what we're supposed to be all about than what the country actually is at any point in time. When protesters burn the flag or stomp on it I'm baffled because they [I]should[/I] be proudly waving it in defiance of whatever they're fighting against, unless they truly do hate the basic concepts of basic justice and personal liberty for all [I]no matter if we fall short of that from time to time.[/I] I think a true patriot can look at the misdeeds of the past and go, "we made mistakes, let's not ever do that again or let it happen to anyone else," and admitting our faults while praising who and what we are.[/QUOTE] best way would be to fly it upside down as a protest imo

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50619502]I don't think the flag as it's displayed violates the rules at all.[/QUOTE] That's for the landlord to decide. If the tenant wants to press charges and manages to land a court case, it'll be up to a judge.

[QUOTE=Paramud;50619515]That's for the landlord to decide. If the tenant wants to press charges and manages to land a court case, it'll be up to a jury.[/QUOTE]Fair enough, but none of this is happening in a vacuum and since this is now in the court of the public opinion the landlord is under extra scrutiny and isn't faring well.

[QUOTE=Code3Response;50618808]The same people who care so much about the flag are also the same users on here who do not support the draft. Which is ironic in a way.[/QUOTE] Not really. America is all about freedom of choice, so patriotic people might support abolishing the draft if they view it as a breach of their liberties.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;50619139]The letter they sent him: By their own letter, they have no grounds for this. It doesn't say anything about hanging things from your balcony.[/QUOTE] "Please do not clutter with personal belongings" seems to be the one they'll be using. Dunno, seems petty but the rules be the rules. It is, after all, just a flag

If his lease states that hanging objects from the balcony is banned, then the tenant is boned. However, from the information provided, the lease most likely doesn't have that clause, which is why they referenced the clause they did in the letter. Since none of the terms like "clutter", "neat", "clean", "attractive", or "garbage" are defined outside of their ordinary meaning, and his balcony/flag wouldn't fall under any of these terms to the layperson, they have no grounds to ask/demand it's removal. The landlord also screwed the pooch in their statement. If this ends up in court, for whatever reason, the landlord COULD have claimed safety as the reason for the removal, and a judge would likely have agreed beings that it's hanging on the outside of his balcony. However, they have already publicly stated that their motive was not that of safety, but instead because they deem the flag to be offensive or disruptive to the community. Hell, they use the term "limiting", implying that there are displays that are "ok". However, unless they spelled out in the lease what is not "ok", or have a clause that allows them to decide what is "ok" and what isn't, then the landlord is up shit creek here. [QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;50619581]"Please do not clutter with personal belongings" seems to be the one they'll be using. Dunno, seems petty but the rules be the rules. It is, after all, just a flag[/QUOTE] It isn't an untidy collection of things. In fact, to the layperson, it's "tidy".

[QUOTE=Govna;50618470]The lease stated provisions against clutter, laundry, garbage... said that the area needed to be neat and clean... it never said anything about flags. It's not besides the point either. "We don't want to offend anybody" is not a valid excuse in this situation. It's the national flag. It's not cluttering anything, it's not a piece of laundry, it's not garbage that he's leaving to lay around outside, etc. He hung up our flag to celebrate the Fourth of July, he's not taking it down, he shouldn't have to take it down, and that's how simple it is. Management is in the wrong here, and everybody knows it. Their lease means jack shit. This is not a major violation, it's them literally saying in their statement that "we don't want to offend anybody", and they've got no valid justification for doing this. He's not taking it down, and more and more veterans and people living in the area are taking his side (as they rightfully should). Unless the management of this complex want to piss more people off than they already have, I strongly suggest that they don't press this matter any further and let it go.[/QUOTE] "Their lease means jack shit." Sure, that'll fly in court. I don't think that I would be inclined to pester the dude over his flag if it were only up for the holiday, and they will probably drop the issue too, and simply refuse to renew his lease once it expires. An eviction would cost a lot of time and money. Sometimes with a bad tenant, it's cheaper just to ride it out, especially if your state laws give a lot of power to tenants. That said, it's a pretty clearcut case. The lease is a contract, he is violating the contract. Should they choose to pursue this, they could legally evict him. It probably just isn't going to be worth it. [editline]29th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;50619676]If his lease states that hanging objects from the balcony is banned, then the tenant is boned. However, from the information provided, the lease most likely doesn't have that clause, which is why they referenced the clause they did in the letter. Since none of the terms like "clutter", "neat", "clean", "attractive", or "garbage" are defined outside of their ordinary meaning, and his balcony/flag wouldn't fall under any of these terms to the layperson, they have no grounds to ask/demand it's removal. The landlord also screwed the pooch in their statement. If this ends up in court, for whatever reason, the landlord COULD have claimed safety as the reason for the removal, and a judge would likely have agreed beings that it's hanging on the outside of his balcony. However, they have already publicly stated that their motive was not that of safety, but instead because they deem the flag to be offensive or disruptive to the community. Hell, they use the term "limiting", implying that there are displays that are "ok". However, unless they spelled out in the lease what is not "ok", or have a clause that allows them to decide what is "ok" and what isn't, then the landlord is up shit creek here. It isn't an untidy collection of things. In fact, to the layperson, it's "tidy".[/QUOTE] That's true. The specific language of the clause, and their followup letter(s) might restrict them anyway. If so, that clause is likely to see some expansion for future tenants.

[QUOTE=GhillieBacca;50617351]How many of you would say the same thing if it was a Gadsden flag lol.[/QUOTE] Probably all of them?

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50619681]"Their lease means jack shit." Sure, that'll fly in court. [/QUOTE] No, he's entirely right. When the most relevant clause in the lease as to get the flag removed is "garbage", it's not going to be winning any court cases.

[QUOTE=Monkah;50619697]No, he's entirely right. When the most relevant clause in the lease as to get the flag removed is "garbage", it's not going to be winning any court cases.[/QUOTE] The only person who brought up garbage was a shitposter; why would you think the actual landlord was going to go with that argument as well?

[QUOTE=Monkah;50619697]No, he's entirely right. When the most relevant clause in the lease as to get the flag removed is "garbage", it's not going to be winning any court cases.[/QUOTE] Potentially, not necessarily. The clause also mentions personal items, which the flag could be considered. There's definitely room to argue, though. Just the same, the lease is still the basis of the landlord tenant relationship. If the lease prohibits hanging things from your balcony fir whatever reason, then that is enforceable. Also, some folks here are misrepresenting the letter. Management did not say that they were worried people would find the American Flag offensive, but that if they allowed tenants to hang flags or signs from the balcony then some might abuse that to hang offensive material.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50619716]Potentially, not necessarily. The clause also mentions personal items, which the flag could be considered. There's definitely room to argue, though. Just the same, the lease is still the basis of the landlord tenant relationship. If the lease prohibits hanging things from your balcony, then that is enforceable.[/QUOTE] It could be, but it's modified by the word "clutter". If it were just "personal items", then the tenets wouldn't legally be allowed to put anything they personally owned, including outdoor furniture, on the balconies, but they highly suggest outdoor furniture be placed on balconies. In my opinion, it would not fall under "do not clutter with personal items", because in my opinion, it lacks the "clutter" prerequisite. I could be wrong here, I haven't seen the entire lease, nor do I know any of the other stipulations. This is all just based on what information I have. Also, the version of the lease he signed is probably long gone by now, and the new version everyone will be signing when they move in or renew will most likely ban all flags/signage from outdoors areas.

[QUOTE=Code3Response;50618808]The same people who care so much about the flag are also the same users on here who do not support the draft. Which is ironic in a way.[/QUOTE] to be fair, fuck the draft

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;50619739]It could be, but it's modified by the word "clutter". If it were just "personal items", then the tenets wouldn't legally be allowed to put anything they personally owned, including outdoor furniture, on the balconies, but they highly suggest outdoor furniture be placed on balconies. In my opinion, it would not fall under "do not clutter with personal items", because in my opinion, it lacks the "clutter" prerequisite. I could be wrong here, I haven't seen the entire lease, nor do I know any of the other stipulations. This is all just based on what information I have.[/QUOTE] Yeah, it's a fair argument. Like I said, I doubt that they will pursue this any further either way. They will, however, likely make a new addition to that clause for future tenants regarding flags, signs, decorations, and banners.

[QUOTE=J!NX;50619742]to be fair, fuck the draft[/QUOTE] Thats not being fair at all. If you have the pride to care about the flag and not the pride to fight for it when you're called upon, fuck you

[QUOTE=BioWaster;50617561]Everything Western is evil, racist, colonial, fucking white males nnneeehhhh~[/QUOTE] lol how did you get that from this?

[QUOTE=Code3Response;50619792]Thats not being fair at all. If you have the pride to care about the flag and not the pride to fight for it when you're called upon, fuck you[/QUOTE] Personally I don't think it's cool to force people to kill and die for my pride, but that's just me.

[QUOTE=Code3Response;50619792]Thats not being fair at all. If you have the pride to care about the flag and not the pride to fight for it when you're called upon, fuck you[/QUOTE] forcing people into fighting wars is fucked up and the drafts are an outdated concept anyways. Remember how well Vietnam went? Everything that went wrong is only made worse by the fact that people were drafted into it. [editline]29th June 2016[/editline] I don't care about this whole 'American pride' concept either I'm not going to use it to justify sending young adults to die, and no one else should If someone cares enough to volunteer that's one thing, but drafting people is another. If that makes me "Less american" then I don't care, I shouldn't be rated on 'how american I am' by how much I'm pro-military. [editline]29th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Jim_Riley;50619455]Lol implying a flag is garbage. Aren't you cool? You don't need to be an American to understand the significance behind a flag. It applies to every country's flag. What you just said is pure, edgy disrespect. Congratulations bro.[/QUOTE] [video=youtube;pnv5iKB2hl4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnv5iKB2hl4[/video] flags are actually very cool apparently

[QUOTE=Code3Response;50619792]Thats not being fair at all. If you have the pride to care about the flag and not the pride to fight for it when you're called upon, fuck you[/QUOTE] Don't be a jackass. You can like your country's flag, but still not want to be forcefully sent off to war. Telling someone "fuck you" for not wanting to be forced into military service, while still appreciating their flag, is absolute bullocks.

[QUOTE=Strike 86;50619292]I've always found it baffling - they hang it everywhere for no good reason, as if people regularly forget what country they're in or something and need reminding whenever they hit up the grocery store. I can understand it outside government buildings and in coastal areas like ports, but is it really necessary for people to have a clanging flag pole erected on their front lawn in central Kansas?[/QUOTE] Because we like to wake up everyday to the sight of victory, I'm sorry you can't feel the same happiness.

[QUOTE=duckmaster;50619964]Because we like to wake up everyday to the sight of victory, I'm sorry you can't feel the same happiness.[/QUOTE] Is this a sarcastic post

[QUOTE=geel9;50620042]Is this a sarcastic post[/QUOTE] Sarcastic or not, I love it.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;50619902]I like where I live, but the flag could burn for all I care. It means nothing to me. I don't see what liking a flag has to do with politics or the draft?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=MaximLaHaxim;50619906]Don't be a jackass. You can like your country's flag, but still not want to be forcefully sent off to war. Telling someone "fuck you" for not wanting to be forced into military service, while still appreciating their flag, is absolute bullocks.[/QUOTE] tbh thinking about it I'm not actually sure how anyone could be proud of a country that 'prides' itself on freedom and choices but would agree that forcing men to fight a war is OK The drafts are literally a contradiction of everything the US stands for. [editline]30th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=geel9;50620042]Is this a sarcastic post[/QUOTE] But don't you love waking up smelling Freedom and seeing Victory across the pond?

I'm so confused how people got so worked up about this.

[QUOTE=omarfr;50620520]I'm so confused how people got so worked up about this.[/QUOTE] he could have gone and just kind of said "Ok I understand" and then removed it and then everything would be fine and the world wouldn't care and the US wouldn't burn to the ground but apparently he didn't so that's how

[QUOTE=J!NX;50620522]he could have gone and just kind of said "Ok I understand" and then removed it and then everything would be fine and the world wouldn't care and the US wouldn't burn to the ground but apparently he didn't so that's how[/QUOTE] Yeah it's fucking ridiculous. Does anybody seriously think that the apartment complex hates america and wants to infringe on people's freedom. NO. Sure i think it's a dumb rule, but god damn who the fuck cares. They're a private business renting out their space and they don't allow shit on their balconies. It's not a big deal...

It's just a flag in the end, and the apartment is well within their right to ask it to be removed since a lease was signed. I imagine they want to prevent establishing a precedent where the entire building gets covered in flags and ends up causing tensions between people who have different flags. Flags can be a political thing and I imagine they want to prevent future headaches by nipping it in the bud.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50620814]It's just a flag in the end, and the apartment is well within their right to ask it to be removed since a lease was signed. I imagine they want to prevent establishing a precedent where the entire building gets covered in flags and ends up causing tensions between people who have different flags. Flags can be a political thing and I imagine they want to prevent future headaches by nipping it in the bud.[/QUOTE] I don't even think it's that. I think it's really just that they don't want shit hanging on their balconies, that's all. Whether it's a flag or laundry or whatever. I'm pretty sure where we live, we can't hang stuff on our balcony either.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;50619739]It could be, but it's modified by the word "clutter". If it were just "personal items", then the tenets wouldn't legally be allowed to put anything they personally owned, including outdoor furniture, on the balconies, but they highly suggest outdoor furniture be placed on balconies. In my opinion, it would not fall under "do not clutter with personal items", because in my opinion, it lacks the "clutter" prerequisite. I could be wrong here, I haven't seen the entire lease, nor do I know any of the other stipulations. This is all just based on what information I have.[/QUOTE] Also, the "personal items" section is prefixed in a manner to indicate it is just referring to breezeways: [quote]Breezeways are not to be used as a patio or storage. Please do not clutter with personal belongings.[/quote] [editline]30th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;50620814]It's just a flag in the end, and the apartment is well within their right to ask it to be removed since a lease was signed. I imagine they want to prevent establishing a precedent where the entire building gets covered in flags and ends up causing tensions between people who have different flags. Flags can be a political thing and I imagine they want to prevent future headaches by nipping it in the bud.[/QUOTE] I don't get your point of "since a lease was signed"; does signing a lease (any lease, regardless of wording) magically allow them to require anything to be removed? If there's some cause in there that allowed them to do so, perhaps they should have referenced that in their official letter instead of what they did, which mentioned nothing about flags or hanging things off the balcony.