Colorado man ordered to remove American flag from apartment balcony because it's "clutter" - Polidicks

[QUOTE=DaMastez;50621242]I don't get your point of "since a lease was signed"; does signing a lease (any lease, regardless of wording) magically allow them to require anything to be removed?[/quote] the point is they didn't want stuff being hung up, I don't see what the problem here is [quote]If there's some cause in there that allowed them to do so, perhaps they should have referenced that in their official letter instead of what they did, which mentioned nothing about flags or hanging things off the balcony.[/QUOTE] if we want to be that pedantic then they'll probably end up adding it for the benefit of people who can't read very well

I'm just trying to imaging how much different this thread would be if it was a rainbow flag.

[QUOTE=Valcor X1;50621651]I'm just trying to imaging how much different this thread would be if it was a rainbow flag.[/QUOTE] What are you implying?

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50621756]What are you implying?[/QUOTE] He's trying to imply that people would hivemind against the landlord if it were a rainbow flag when in reality [I]nothing would change[/I] from those siding with the landlord.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50620814]It's just a flag in the end, and the apartment is well within their right to ask it to be removed since a lease was signed. I imagine they want to prevent establishing a precedent where the entire building gets covered in flags and ends up causing tensions between people who have different flags. Flags can be a political thing and I imagine they want to prevent future headaches by nipping it in the bud.[/QUOTE] How can hanging the national flag be construed as a "political thing"?

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;50619139]The letter they sent him: By their own letter, they have no grounds for this. It doesn't say anything about hanging things from your balcony.[/QUOTE] It says, "Please do not clutter with personal belongings". It's a blanket statement that allows them to fight against stuff like that. Apartment complexes in the west are often very stringent about making things look clean and uniform, and one balcony out of a line of 20 balconies with a flag hanging over the side doesn't look neat. In this particular instance, it's no different than hanging a flag of your favorite sports team. It's just not the intended use of the balcony. This comes from several (3+) years of apartment renting. The leasing office uses deliberately vague or odd words open to interpretation so they can win in cases such as these. [editline]30th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50621978]How can hanging the national flag be construed as a "political thing"?[/QUOTE] Because it is politically related. Just like how some people hang a Mexican flag here in socal, in order to prevent offending any possible person they try to prevent things like this. Apartments are close quarters communities and it only takes one person complaining to cause a huge stink in the leasing office. Hence the need to keep things uniform and consistent. I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to fly an American flag, it's just in this particular instance he can't be hanging an American flag. My apartment complex wouldn't allow me to do this either, there's a flag hanging at the entrance to the community and that's good enough for me anywho.

[QUOTE=Aetna;50621989] Because it is politically related. Just like how some people hang a Mexican flag here in socal, in order to prevent offending any possible person they try to prevent things like this. Apartments are close quarters communities and it only takes one person complaining to cause a huge stink in the leasing office. Hence the need to keep things uniform and consistent. I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to fly an American flag, it's just in this particular instance he can't be hanging an American flag. My apartment complex wouldn't allow me to do this either, there's a flag hanging at the entrance to the community and that's good enough for me anywho.[/QUOTE] It's literally just the flag of the country one is standing in. If someone is offended by its mere presence within its home country, maybe they should remove themselves from that country.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50622047]It's literally just the flag of the country one is standing in. If someone is offended by its mere presence within its home country, maybe they should remove themselves from that country.[/QUOTE] I hate to say it man, but it just doesn't work like that. It's not the flag that's the problem, it's the placement of the flag. Does that make sense? The balcony is owned by the complex, not the tenant. It would be like walking up to someone's house and hanging up a flag, then saying "Well, you live in America, so this shouldn't bother you." It's the landlord's property, not the tenants', and they have the final say. Now, were it a CONDO, that the tenant OWNED instead of RENTED then yes, I'd fully be behind the dude with the flag. But in this case the apartment complex has a right to have him remove certain items from plain view on THEIR property. [editline]30th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Aetna;50622085]I hate to say it man, but it just doesn't work like that. It's not the flag that's the problem, it's the placement of the flag. Does that make sense? The balcony is owned by the complex, not the tenant. It would be like walking up to someone's house and hanging up a flag, then saying "Well, you live in America, so this shouldn't bother you." It's the landlord's property, not the tenants', and they have the final say. Now, were it a CONDO, that the tenant OWNED instead of RENTED then yes, I'd fully be behind the dude with the flag. But in this case the apartment complex has a right to have him remove certain items from plain view on THEIR property.[/QUOTE] Shit, here's a better example: you rent a room in a house. You hang an American flag from your window in the room you're renting. The landlord asks you to remove it because its visible from the street. You'd try and fight him on that?

I cannot think of a single place in the US where having the flag placed could possibly be seen as a negative thing. Ownership of the location being irrelevant.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50622130]I cannot think of a single place in the US where having the flag placed could possibly be seen as a negative thing. Ownership of the location being irrelevant.[/QUOTE] That's cool and all, but being PC as a landlord is a pretty common thing. Being a landlord sucks dick, imagine having to deal with a tenant whining because their balcony has beautiful patio furniture and looks really nice and the dude next to them has a flag hanging and they think that's wrong because flags should only be on poles and not flapping against a dirty railing. People will ALWAYS complain about something, and landlords try to avoid this as best as possible by not allowing people to do anything visible to other tenants. That's just the way it works. Have you ever personally rented an apartment? I'm genuinely surprised more people haven't encountered circumstances similar to these before. The complex is upset at this guy for this very reason. Now their complex is on the news because one tenant decided to do something they asked him not to. No complex wants that, it's poor advertisement. They want the complex to appear plain, clean, and uniform to attract tenants. They might lose potential tenants over this.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50622130]I cannot think of a single place in the US where having the flag placed could possibly be seen as a negative thing. Ownership of the location being irrelevant.[/QUOTE] Some people just don't like it.

[QUOTE=Aetna;50621989]It says, "Please do not clutter with personal belongings". It's a blanket statement that allows them to fight against stuff like that. Apartment complexes in the west are often very stringent about making things look clean and uniform, and one balcony out of a line of 20 balconies with a flag hanging over the side doesn't look neat. In this particular instance, it's no different than hanging a flag of your favorite sports team. It's just not the intended use of the balcony. This comes from several (3+) years of apartment renting. The leasing office uses deliberately vague or odd words open to interpretation so they can win in cases such as these.[/QUOTE] From my post earlier: [QUOTE]Since none of the terms like "clutter", "neat", "clean", "attractive", or "garbage" are defined outside of their ordinary meaning, and his balcony/flag wouldn't fall under any of these terms to the layperson, they have no grounds to ask/demand it's removal.[/QUOTE] Also, [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_proferentem"]Contra Proferentem:[/URL] [QUOTE]also known as "interpretation against the draftsman", is a doctrine of contractual interpretation providing that, where a promise, agreement or term is ambiguous, the preferred meaning should be the one that works against the interests of the party who provided the wording.[/QUOTE] The use of vague blanket statements doesn't help the leasing office, it hurts them because they didn't define the terms and contra proferentem prevents them from intentionally not defining terms in order to justify things which are not covered by the lease on a whim.

[QUOTE=Code3Response;50619792]Thats not being fair at all. If you have the pride to care about the flag and not the pride to fight for it when you're called upon, fuck you[/QUOTE] I want to live in a land where that flag reminds me that the government won't make me fight if I don't want to. If that's what it represents, then wholeheartedly remove it.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;50622326]I want to live in a land where that flag reminds me that the government won't make me fight if I don't want to. If that's what it represents, then wholeheartedly remove it.[/QUOTE] Except it doesn't mean just that.

[QUOTE=Code3Response;50619792]You don't want to be sent off to fight and die in a war that you don't think is worth fighting and dying over? Fuck you![/QUOTE] If you think it's okay to send people to fight and lose their lives for something against their will, then fuck you.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50622130]I cannot think of a single place in the US where having the flag placed could possibly be seen as a negative thing. Ownership of the location being irrelevant.[/QUOTE] Either way the apartment doesn't allow anything on the balcony so itms pretty irrelevant.

If anything, I would think an exemption would be appropriate with the Fourth of July being just around the corner, not necessarily because flags themselves should be exempt.

[QUOTE=GhillieBacca;50617351]How many of you would say the same thing if it was a Gadsden flag lol.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Valcor X1;50621651]I'm just trying to imaging how much different this thread would be if it was a rainbow flag.[/QUOTE] imagine what these posts would say if the subject was a skinhead flying a confederate flag for the "white/straight pride day" thing that was apparently happening yesterday. Hypothetical callouts are fun!

[QUOTE=dai;50623088]imagine what these posts would say if the subject was a skinhead flying a confederate flag for the "white/straight pride day" thing that was apparently happening yesterday. Hypothetical callouts are fun![/QUOTE] I used to ride by an apartment building where some dude hang a Confederate flag in this manner (in a somewhat urban area in the North) and no one really gave a fuck.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50621978]How can hanging the national flag be construed as a "political thing"?[/QUOTE] Allowing tenants to hang the flag means allowing tenants to fly the flags of other countries or organisations which the complex owners would probably not be happy about.

[QUOTE=dai;50623088]imagine what these posts would say if the subject was a skinhead flying a confederate flag for the "white/straight pride day" thing that was apparently happening yesterday. Hypothetical callouts are fun![/QUOTE] Not to mention the point being made is tangential at best and has no actual impact on what's really going on. Honestly, the apartment complex is in their right to tell him to take it down. It's not that it's an American flag that's the problem. It's that if they allow the flag to stay, then they're setting up a precedent. But where would you draw the line to say "No, you can't hang that flag up?" They shouldn't have to, and clearly do not want to, deal with that situation. It realistically has nothing to do with the man or his flag at all.

[QUOTE=matt000024;50623126]I used to ride by an apartment building where some dude hang a Confederate flag in this manner (in a somewhat urban area in the North) and no one really gave a fuck.[/QUOTE] on the serious note, definitely not uncommon that it happens and that it usually just gets ignored. Town where I went to high school had a lot of rednecky types and you'd see cars and buildings with it semi-regularly. My current apartment complex seems pretty lax on porch regulations, lots of deck furniture, grills, bikes, plantlife, and even decorations on the building itself. Old neighbors used sidewalk chalk to draw an elaborate door mat. End unit on my building has an Indian family who used bedazzling jewels across the top of their front door, it's really neat but also has a swastika on it and I kind of worry someone will take it wrong, as it's a lot more traditionally known for [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika]peace[/url] in many cultures. I'm sure there's still a lot of scrutiny at places like mine still, and I'd understand if a complex were far more strict, but I'd be a bit taken aback if hanging an american flag was met with a brunt NO just a few days before the 4th. It's understandable they may not want it to snowball into other people going lax on following the rules (IE the first post on this page) but it's [i]pretty[/i] hard to miss the context

Many people do this in Sweden too but with middle eastern flags. I don't see the problem with it but if he's renting and the landlord don't want him to have it there he should remove it.

[QUOTE=Protocol7;50623166]Honestly, the apartment complex is in their right to tell him to take it down. It's not that it's an American flag that's the problem. It's that if they allow the flag to stay, then they're setting up a precedent. But where would you draw the line to say "No, you can't hang that flag up?" They shouldn't have to, and clearly do not want to, deal with that situation. It realistically has nothing to do with the man or his flag at all.[/QUOTE] I disagree. Landlords are not able to place restrictions to the units on the fly that aren't in the lease. It's a breach of contract. If they don't want people hanging things from their balconies, then it should be stated in the lease.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;50623253]I disagree. Landlords are not able to place restrictions to the units on the fly that aren't in the lease. It's a breach of contract. If they don't want people hanging things from their balconies, then it should be stated in the lease.[/QUOTE] We don't have access to the original lease that he signed, so it's very possible that there is an addendum that prevents flags on balconies that wasn't quoted in the letter. I know my lease explicitly states that only patio furniture and plants may be put on the balcony, and also goes as far as explicitly stating flags cannot be placed on the exterior of the building anywhere. It's unreasonable to expect the lease to itemize every type of item prohibited, and I would imagine the flag falls under "personal belongings" which are not permitted as per the letter.

[QUOTE=Protocol7;50623364]We don't have access to the original lease that he signed, so it's very possible that there is an addendum that prevents flags on balconies that wasn't quoted in the letter. I know my lease explicitly states that only patio furniture and plants may be put on the balcony, and also goes as far as explicitly stating flags cannot be placed on the exterior of the building anywhere. It's unreasonable to expect the lease to itemize every type of item prohibited, and I would imagine the flag falls under "personal belongings" which are not permitted as per the letter.[/QUOTE] Even if it isn't in the lease it's stupid to get on bad terms with your landlord over a flag on your balcony. [editline]30th June 2016[/editline] Meant to quote Silence I Kill You but whatever.

For the record, before anyone does some digging and invokes the "Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2005", please note that that law legally only prohibits folks in a real estate association (think HOA, condominium association) from enacting policy preventing displaying the US flag. This does not apply to renters, who are typically not part of any real estate associations. It mostly boils down to "if you rent instead of own, you're probably fucked." Which is true. A lot of the rights and freedoms granted to property owners do not apply to renters.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;50623253]I disagree. Landlords are not able to place restrictions to the units on the fly that aren't in the lease. It's a breach of contract. If they don't want people hanging things from their balconies, then it should be stated in the lease.[/QUOTE] You've made it painfully obvious that you either don't know how leasing agreements work or you've never signed a lease before. They're extremely long, filled with tons of fine print and cover almost every aspect of the property you could possibly think of. I'm kicking myself right now for not having a PDF copy of my leasing agreement just to show you how inane half the shit in there is. Most of the time there's a clause toward the end that pretty much says, "Oh yeah we can change this on the fly, notify you and there's nothing you can do about it and btw this is open to our interpretation of how we worded it".

[QUOTE=Protocol7;50623364]We don't have access to the original lease that he signed, so it's very possible that there is an addendum that prevents flags on balconies that wasn't quoted in the letter. I know my lease explicitly states that only patio furniture and plants may be put on the balcony, and also goes as far as explicitly stating flags cannot be placed on the exterior of the building anywhere. It's unreasonable to expect the lease to itemize every type of item prohibited, and I would imagine the flag falls under "personal belongings" which are not permitted as per the letter.[/QUOTE] Once again, "personal belongings" have the prerequisite of "clutter". Furthermore, they go on to encourage things like outdoor furniture, which is a direct contradiction to "no personal belongings". And you don't have to itemize specific banned items. they could have put a ban from hanging objects from their balcony, or a ban on any kind of flag or signage, but they didn't, and ambiguity favors the party who did NOT draft the contract, ergo the tenant would be in the right. If there is a "no flag" or "no hanging objects" addendum, it needs to be cited. [QUOTE=maeZtro;50623384]Even if it isn't in the lease it's stupid to get on bad terms with your landlord over a flag on your balcony. [editline]30th June 2016[/editline] Meant to quote Silence I Kill You but whatever.[/QUOTE] And most people, myself included, would agree. But some people don't like it when landlords decide that they want to enforce terms and stipulations that aren't in the lease and that you never agreed to in the first place.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;50623577]Once again, "personal belongings" have the prerequisite of "clutter". Furthermore, they go on to encourage things like outdoor furniture, which is a direct contradiction to "no personal belongings". And you don't have to itemize specific banned items. they could have put a ban from hanging objects from their balcony, or a ban on any kind of flag or signage, but they didn't, and ambiguity favors the party who did NOT draft the contract, ergo the tenant would be in the right. If there is a "no flag" or "no hanging objects" addendum, it needs to be cited.[/QUOTE] ...but we don't have the original lease documents to review, and as a current renter I am operating on the mindset that there is likely a provision that prevents that. Apartment complexes don't let you do shit with the exterior of their buildings, period. I could be wrong, of course, but my gut feeling does say that the tenant is in the wrong. We'll never know for sure unless we get to review the signed documents.